The human spirit

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

So what did he mean by the 12 tribes of israel, how are christians part of the 12 tribes of israel?

Quick history lesson (correct me people if I'm wrong!!)

Israel was split into two kingdoms

The Northern Kingdom was made of 10 tribes

the Southern Kingdom was made of 2 tribes (Judah and [Manasseh-might be another one I forget])

The Assyrians destroyed Israel in 721 BCE and capture their people.

Later around 120 or so years later, Babylon would destroy Judah and carry them away.

50 (give or take) years later though the Persians would sweep in and allow the citizens of Judah to return to their land.

However the northern tribe...no one knows what happened to them...though it's argued historically that it was the movement of refugees from the North that brought monotheism to Judah.

 

[Pegg]

So what did he mean by the 12 tribes of israel, how are christians part of the 12 tribes of israel?

Jesus was speaking to his 12 apostles when he said 'you will judge the twelve tribes of Israel'
His 12 apostles were called the 'spiritual Israel' and their role is to “judge the world.” according to 1*Cor. 6:2

So “the twelve tribes of Israel,” can only refer to the rest of mankind who are are destined to live forever on earth. It includes all mankind, people from every nation.

 

[Horrorble]

Also is Luke 22:20-40 referring to other Christians or just the ones Jesus was talking to at the time? Cause it seems the covenant was made only with those Christians he was speaking to.

 

[Pegg]

Many times we see teachers of the law asking about eternal life, and questions about the kingdom of heaven. It wasn't something that was outside of Jewish thought. Resurrection was well believed among the Pharisees, and I'm sure the other schools had their own beliefs about some sort of kingdom of heaven, be that kingdom one that is spiritual versus physical is important.

That being said One has to ask the question what is the role the brain plays with the spirit/soul?

the brain is part of the soul....just like your arm is part of the soul

The scriptures tell us that when the body (including the brain) dies, all consciousness ceases
Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts [“thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “all his thinking,” NE; “plans,” RS, NAB] do perish.”

Eccl. 9:5: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.”

 

[Pegg]

Also is Luke 22:20-40 referring to other Christians or just the ones Jesus was talking to at the time? Cause it seems the covenant was made only with those Christians he was speaking to.

thats exactly right...the covenant was only made with his 12 apostles.
The covenant was a 'covenant for a kingdom'

Hence, only those selected are brought into that covenant. And as revelation says, the number of those selected amounts to 144,000

That means there are a lot of people (billions) who are not part of the covenant to sit on thrones to judge the world. And this implies that all those billions of people are living somewhere else (not in heaven) and being governed by those who are in heaven.

 

[Horrorble]

thats exactly right...the covenant was only made with his 12 apostles.
The covenant was a 'covenant for a kingdom'

Hence, only those selected are brought into that covenant. And as revelation says, the number of those selected amounts to 144,000

That means there are a lot of people (billions) who are not part of the covenant to sit on thrones to judge the world. And this implies that all those billions of people are living somewhere else (not in heaven) and being governed by those who are in heaven.

So if the covenant was only made with 12 men how did the 144,000 get involved? are you sure the rest are judges as well?

 

[Pegg]

So if the covenant was only made with 12 men how did the 144,000 get involved? are you sure the rest are judges as well?

in reading the letters of the apostles, its clear that they firmly believed that more christians from among them were being selected as members of the heavenly kingdom.

John even wrote the number of them as 144,000
Reve 7:4*And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand,

Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads

John also sees another crowd of people....but it was a vast crowd and he couldnt number them:
Rev 14:9*After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10*And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb....14*So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15*That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
”



This vision ties in with Jesus words about the 'little flock' and the 'other sheep'

“Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”—LUKE 12:32

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.”—John 10:16.

 

[Horrorble]

in reading the letters of the apostles, its clear that they firmly believed that more christians from among them were being selected as members of the heavenly kingdom.

John even wrote the number of them as 144,000
Reve 7:4*And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand,

Revelation 14:1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads

John also sees another crowd of people....but it was a vast crowd and he couldnt number them:
Rev 14:9*After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10*And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb....14*So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15*That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.
”



This vision ties in with Jesus words about the 'little flock' and the 'other sheep'

“Have no fear, little flock, because your Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.”—LUKE 12:32

“And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring.”—John 10:16.

ok cool and how do we know 144,000 is meant to be a literal number?

 

[Pegg]

ok cool and how do we know 144,000 is meant to be a literal number?

there are a few ways to reason on this number...


Jesus spoke of his apostles as being a 'little flock' which indicates that they are small in number

Also, when John was given his vision, the number was clear to him...he could state with certainty that they numbered 144,000. However, when he then saw the larger crowd, he said he was unable to number them. This indicates that the vision he was given gave a definite number for those in heaven.

Besides that, we have Jesus teaching that some people would inherit the earth. If that is the case, then it proves that not all people are going to heaven.

 

[Horrorble]

So how is 144,000 literal but not the rest of the numbers? the 12,000 from each tribe suggests that 144,000 is not literal.


144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

 

[Pegg]

So how is 144,000 literal but not the rest of the numbers? the 12,000 from each tribe suggests that 144,000 is not literal.


144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

5 From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,

from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,

from the tribe of Gad 12,000,

6 from the tribe of Asher 12,000,

from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,

from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,

7 from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,

from the tribe of Levi 12,000,

from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,

8 from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,

from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,

from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

it says there will be 12,000 selected from each tribe

12,000 x 12,000 = 144,000

And we know that each tribe of Israel number far more then 12,000. It was said that over 3million left Egypt. So that means that not all of Isreal are going to be in this heavenly class of people. And if not, where will they be?

 

[Horrorble]

it says there will be 12,000 selected from each tribe

12,000 x 12,000 = 144,000

And we know that each tribe of Israel number far more then 12,000. It was said that over 3million left Egypt. So that means that not all of Isreal are going to be in this heavenly class of people. And if not, where will they be?

but some of those tribes do not even exist any more right? so they can not be literally Jews from those tribes, (where would that leave Christians who are not Jewish?) so why would there literally be 12,000 of each tribe?

 

[Pegg]

but some of those tribes do not even exist any more right? so they can not be literally Jews from those tribes, (where would that leave Christians who are not Jewish?) so why would there literally be 12,000 of each tribe?

this is the point why we say that it doesnt refer only to Jews. Some believe that only the jews make up the nation of Isreal, but obviously from this list, the christians didnt teach or believe that only Jews are Gods people. Christians from all nations make up the 'israel of God'


from the list of tribes in revelation, two do not exist...hence it doesnt mean that only jewish people are destined to become member of the kingdom covenant. Its open to anyone whom God deems fit for the privilege.

But the number is set to 144,000