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The huge shift from Yeshua to the Christian Jesus Christ

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
I do not agree that the NT distorted this material, but that the many interpretations of it there is distortion..
Comparing the original to the New Testament reworkings of the sayings is ample proof that the content and meaning of many of the individual sayings and all of the ideology has been distorted and twisted in different directions.

Those directions are pointing towards the preoccupations of the Christian religion which are still totally missing in Q.
In the Second Century the proto-orthodox version of Christianity had already largely taken shape and the ideology of Q (possibly of the historical Jesus) had all but been abandoned. Of course little to nothing is known about small sects that may have hung on to using the original Q but they may have lasted for several centuries longer (may have been the so-called Ebionites or Nazarenes).

If the mythicists are correct, then Q was never given by a historical Jesus, but the collection was taken from elsewhere and mixed in with the mythical story of a descended God-man who never really existed in the flesh.

Q
Q 6: 39-40 / Luke 6: 39-40 = Matthew 5: 14, 10: 24-25

39 Can a blind person show the way to another blind person? Won’t they both fall into a pit? 40 A disciple is not superior to his Master, it is enough for him to become like his Master.

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MATTHEW
Matthew 10: 24-25
24 The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more [shall they call] them of his household?

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LUKE
Luke 6: 39-40

39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

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pearl

Well-Known Member
Comparing the original to the New Testament

But there is no original, only what has been redacted from the NT.

descended God-man

The Gospels do not speak of a 'God-man'.

If the mythicists are correct, then Q was never given by a historical Jesus,

Taken from the father of demythologizing the NT, Rudolph Bultmann,

The historical man named 'Jesus' was an eschatological Jewish prophet whose original disciples (companions?)(A.D. 30's) knew him only as such, and whom the post-apostolic (i.e. non-apostolic) Hellenistic church (late first century A.D.) deified as the Son of God: "Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ". Bultmann recognized the two predominating cultural influences which shaped each New Testament document: [a] the historical Jesus dressed in the mythical garb of the Gnostic "heavenly redeemer"
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
But there is no original, only what has been redacted from the NT.
Indeed, luckily we have been able to reconstruct it, so we once again have the original sayings which we can compare to the redacted versions that ended up in the Christian Bible collection.
This reconstructed text may not be an exact copy of the lost original text, but it is at least cleaned of most of the redacted additions and separated from the added (false) sayings.
This allows us to study the original ideology of Jesus instead of being disturbed by the Christian ideologies of the redactors (which are quite different).
The Gospels do not speak of a 'God-man'.
No, but I was not referring to the authors of the gospels.
Taken from the father of demythologizing the NT, Rudolph Bultmann,

The historical man named 'Jesus' was an eschatological Jewish prophet whose original disciples (companions?)(A.D. 30's) knew him only as such, and whom the post-apostolic (i.e. non-apostolic) Hellenistic church (late first century A.D.) deified as the Son of God: "Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ". Bultmann recognized the two predominating cultural influences which shaped each New Testament document: [a] the historical Jesus dressed in the mythical garb of the Gnostic "heavenly redeemer"
That is what Bultmann believed. The mythologists however have quite stong arguments that Jesus was not a historical personality. In that case even the sayings of Q do not go back to a historical Jesus.
I tend to think that there was a historical Jesus because even though the narrative gospel writers abuse the teachings of Jesus or/and do not understand them, their stories about Jesus contain elements that run parallel with the original ideology of the Q-sayings. I think they would never have included those Q-type elements if they had purely invented the stories themselves.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
No, but I was not referring to the authors of the gospels.

But the Gospels are the only source of the historical Jesus except for a few scant references found in Josephus Flavius. Who are the 'mythologists' you refer to?

I tend to think that there was a historical Jesus because even though the narrative gospel writers abuse the teachings of Jesus or/and do not understand them,

NT authors understood, in their time and culture. I see the problem with our inability to bridge that time and culture to our own.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
But the Gospels are the only source of the historical Jesus except for a few scant references found in Josephus Flavius. Who are the 'mythologists' you refer to?
NT authors understood, in their time and culture. I see the problem with our inability to bridge that time and culture to our own.
There is a whole goup of Christ myth defenders. They are mentioned on Wikipedia:
Christ myth theory - Wikipedia

I would not call the reconstructed Q-lite a true part of the biblical Gospel source. Q-lite was not respected as a "holy" source by the authors of the Gospels, so it is not simply available for reading in the New Testament. You will have to read the reconstruction to get to know and understand it.

The way that the NT authors (mis)understood the teachings in their Q-lite document shows that the text was alien to their Christian way of thinking.
It seems they were themselves not instructed in the meaning of the teachings but they still tried their best to reinterpret what they read. The disrespectful way in which they treated the sayings demonstrates this clearly. It's tragic to see such a discontinuity, such a rift between the ideology of the mission of Jesus and that of early Christianity.

It is hard for us to understand how this could have happened so early on, but the fact that there were Ebionites, Nazarenes and gnostic followers with many other gospel forms shows how chaotic those early days must have been ideologically.
Christianity is somehow not a direct descendent of the original mission. But they did at one point have their hands on the original teachings, which they then re-used in their own peculiar Christian way. And lucky for us they did this twice and each time in a different way.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
Q-lite was not respected as a "holy" source by the authors of the Gospels, so it is not simply available by reading in the New Testament.

Because the only source acknowledged as 'holy' was Hebrew Scripture. The reason redaction and scribal 'corrections' were allowed, the Gospels were not yet considered to be holy Scripture.

"According to Ehrman, "Jesus was a first-century Jew, and when we try to make him into a twenty-first century American we distort everything he was and everything he stood for."

True
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Because the only source acknowledged as 'holy' was Hebrew Scripture. The reason redaction and scribal 'corrections' were allowed, the Gospels were not yet considered to be holy Scripture.
Yes, but you would think that they would treat the words of the master whom they considered divine with more respect.
"According to Ehrman, "Jesus was a first-century Jew, and when we try to make him into a twenty-first century American we distort everything he was and everything he stood for."
But what does that imply? I don't try to make Jesus into anything, I just try to understand the spiritual philosophy of Q-lite. There are some tiny Jewish elements in the text but otherwise these teachings are very universal and not religious, so also not typically Jewish. At the same time I don't deny that he had a Jewish background and did not try to establish something like Christianity. Q-lite can stand quite well without both Judaism and Christianity.
The Jesus Seminar did try to turn Jesus into a twentieth century (progressive) American, the members are/were mostly children of the 1960's (figuratively speaking).
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
No messing took place with the first of these two sayings, aLuke also did not mess with the second one. But aMatthew destroyed the most important part of the saying and replaced that with Christian stuff he made up.

Q
Q 16: 13 / Luke 16: 13 = Matthew 6: 24
13 Nobody can serve two masters; for he will either hate the one and love the other, or be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and Mammon.

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MATTHEW
Matthew 6: 24
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve god and mammon.

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LUKE
Luke 16:13
13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

====
====

Q
Q 6: 46-49 / Luke 6: 46-49 = Matthew 7: 21, 24-27
46 .. Why do you call me: Master, Master, and do not what I say? 47 Everyone hearing my words and acting on them, 48 is like a person who built his house on bedrock; and the rain poured down and the flash-floods came, and pounded that house, and it did not collapse, for it was founded on bedrock. 49 And everyone who hears my words and does not act on them is like a person who built his house on sand; and the rain poured down and the flash-floods came, and battered that house, and promptly it collapsed, and its fall was devastating.

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MATTHEW
Matthew 7: 21-27
21 . Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

====

LUKE
Luke 6: 46-49
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will show you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 9 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

====
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
aMatthew drops the last part of the saying, whereas aLuke luckily preserves it.
He also puts the words of the person whom Jesus addresses in this parable into the mouth of a scribe!

Notice the addition of the typical Christian 'but go thou and preach the Rule of God.' by aLuke, something which is atypical for the historical Jesus who never mentions anything like preaching the Rule of God (but rather how to realise the Rule of God (within) yourself and help others do the same).

Q
Q 9: 57-60, [61-62] / Luke 9: 57-60, [61-62] = Matthew 8:19-22

57 Someone said to him: I will follow you wherever you go. 58 And Yeshua said to him: Foxes have holes, and birds of the sky have nests; but the Son of man does not have anywhere he can lay his head. 59 But another said to him: Master, permit me first to go and bury my father. 60 But he said to him: Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead. 61 Yet another said: Master, I will follow you, but let me first say farewell to my family. 62 And Yeshua said to him: No one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back, is in a position to enter the Rule of God.

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MATTHEW
Matthew 8: 19-22
18 . Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about him, he gave commandment to depart unto the other side. 19 And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head. 21 And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. 23 . And when he was entered into a ship, his disciples followed him.

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LUKE
Luke 9: 57-60, [61-62]
56b And they went to another village 57 And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain [man] said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. 58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head. 59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the Rule of God. 61 And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house. 62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the Rule of God.
 
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pearl

Well-Known Member
never mentions anything like preaching the Rule of God (but rather how to realise the Rule of God (within) yourself and help others do the same).

And what form of communication did Jesus supposedly use if not that of speech. NT Jesus is known as teacher. I think you are putting too much unnecessary emphasis on explicit wording, teach, spread, proclaim, the Kingdom or Rule of God.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
And what form of communication did Jesus supposedly use if not that of speech. NT Jesus is known as teacher. I think you are putting too much unnecessary emphasis on explicit wording, teach, spread, proclaim, the Kingdom or Rule of God.
Spreading or proclaiming the faith is a Christian thing. Jesus spoke only the blue part of the text, the green part is Christian "filling" put into the mouth of their Christ. For you it does not matter because you support the Christian way of thinking rather than that of the historical Jesus.
Jesus was not proclaiming the Rule of God but rather teaching his close disciples how to establish that Rule of God in their own lives.

The faith is a thing the Christian Church put at the center, they made it seem as if the Rule of God was closely connected to their Christian faith. But it is not, it is a part of spiritual philosophy (as a name for the goal in human life) and does not belong to any religion.

The green texts change the meaning of the blue text and even more so if you read the wider surroundings of the blue texts also. In gMatthew it is changed quite differently from gLuke, which proves that this development was a big mistake. Of course the destruction of the unity of the Q-lite text in itself already shows what a disastrous development took place when the teachings of Jesus got to be used second-hand in different ways and the original text was discarded. The original sayings can only be properly understood in their original context and without the (green) texts added by the Christians.

The fact that you prefer the translation 'Kingdom of God' (also 'Kingdom of Heaven') over 'Rule of God' reveals your Christian way of thinking. The word 'kingdom' sounds like a place. But the Rule of God is not a place, but nothing else than the Cosmic Consciousness or Holy Spirit which can only by reached by the (infinite) expansion of individual consciousness by cleansing or liberating the mind of all of its limitations.

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aMatthew does the most editing of the next saying. What aLuke added in 10: 12-15 he copied from gMatthew (there were probably more editors involved in forming the present gLuke).
Again, the green text reveals a lot about the (quite odd) Christian way of thinking (which is never found in Q-lite).

Q
Q 10: 2-11 / Luke 10: 2-11 = Matthew 9: 37-38, 10: 15, 16, 7-14
2 He said to his disciples: The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. So ask the Lord of the harvest to dispatch workers into his harvest. 3 Be on your way! Look, I send you like sheep in the midst of wolves. So you be as shrewd as the serpents and as innocent as the doves! 4 Carry no purse, nor knapsack, nor sandals, nor stick, and greet no one on the road. 5 Into whatever house you enter, first say: Peace to this house! 6 And if a son of peace be there, let your peace come upon him. but if not, let your peace return upon you. 7 And at that house remain, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the worker is worthy of his reward. Do not move around from house to house. 8 And whatever town you enter and they take you in, eat what is set before you. 9 And cure the sick there, and say to them: The Rule of God has drawn close to you. 10 But into whatever town you enter and they do not take you in, on going out from that town 11 shake off the dust from your feet.

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MATTHEW
Matthew 9: 37-38
35 . And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people. 36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd. 37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly [is] plenteous, but the labourers [are] few; 38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matthew 10: 15-16-7-14
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, 10 Nor scrip for [your] journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves:/ / for the workman is worthy of his meat. 11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. 12 And when ye come into an house, salute it. 13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. 16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

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LUKE
Luke 10: 2-11
1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come. 2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly [is] great, but the labourers [are] few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest. 3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves. 4 Carry neither purse nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way. 5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace [be] to this house. 6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again. 7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house. 8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you: 9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The Rule of God is come nigh unto you. 10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say, 11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you. 12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
But the Gospels are the only source of the historical Jesus except for a few scant references found in Josephus Flavius. Who are the 'mythologists' you refer to?

NT authors understood, in their time and culture. I see the problem with our inability to bridge that time and culture to our own.

The earliest Christians were purged via genocide. Rome had been very tolerant and even accommodating to the religions within its many territories. It understood allowing these traditions made it easier for local government to control their people, for Rome.

Christianity was seen as different, since it posed a risk to the order of things. It was called the religion of the slaves that did away with law in favor of faith. This was seen as destabilizing by the status quo in Rome and by the status quo of other religions. It needed to be purged and all traces removed.

A good example, in modern times, is PC deciding that some literature is no longer appropriate, so they hype its evil and create a taboo so they can purge the shelfs. As generations past, the students never read these books and the memories fade, until one day, these censored things are revisited and modernized. The gospel were written after they were rediscovered and the purge was part of the past.

If you look at Western history, there is a transition from BC to AD. This is when the ancient world ends and a new order of world history begins. This coordinates with the rise of Christianity. Everything changed and the religion of the slaves would become the master. One may question the origins and sources, but it is hard to deny its transitional affects on history.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
If you look at Western history, there is a transition from BC to AD.

Which cannot be understood without the intertestamental period, its politics and religious claims.

Christianity was seen as different, since it posed a risk to the order of things.

Early Christianity was a cult within Judaism until its expulsion from the synagogue. No longer under the protection of the Jewish umbrella Christians were open to Roman persecution.

One may question the origins and sources, but it is hard to deny its transitional affects on history.

True.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Jesus was not proclaiming the Rule of God but rather teaching his close disciples how to establish that Rule of God in their own lives.

That would be saying that man has the power to establish the rule of God, which can be brought to fruition by God alone.

The faith is a thing the Christian Church put at the center, they made it seem as if the Rule of God was closely connected to their Christian faith. But it is not, it is a part of spiritual philosophy (as a name for the goal in human life) and does not belong to any religion.

I think you are distorting or simply unfamiliar with what Christian faith is. You are predisposed, as I, to one or the other position. If not for the Gospels you dismiss the Jesus of 'Q' would be dead and forgotten. If the 'Rule of God' seems connected with Christian faith it is due to Jesus' teaching. What separates us is the D/R of the 'Jesus of 'Q'.'
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
That would be saying that man has the power to establish the rule of God, which can be brought to fruition by God alone.
That is a discussion of "free will". Of course only God controls how you develop in your life, also spiritually. But you yourself have a duty to follow His instructions that will hasten your return to the Rule of God. God being almighty does not relieve you of having to act in your life. You just have to always stay aware that He is the ultimate Actor behind the scenes. In fact, this is also explained by Jesus in the teachings of Q-lite. Christianity however turned its back on these teachings and went in another direction (more ritualistic and depending on religious fantasies).

I think you are distorting or simply unfamiliar with what Christian faith is. You are predisposed, as I, to one or the other position. If not for the Gospels you dismiss the Jesus of 'Q' would be dead and forgotten. If the 'Rule of God' seems connected with Christian faith it is due to Jesus' teaching. What separates us is the D/R of the 'Jesus of 'Q'.'
I think I am well enough aware of how the Christian faith differs from the teachings of Jesus in Q-lite. The fact that we have not been able to find a copy of Q-lite (like we have with gThomas) and we must necessarily depend on the distorted versions of Q-lite in gMatthew and gLuke, does not mean that we owe anything to the added ideologies of aMatthew and aLuke who were trying to displace the ideology of Jesus himself.
If we had only the Koran and the New Testament had been lost, the teachings in the Koran about Jesus would also have very little relevance to someone trying to follow Jesus. Of course, a Muslim would disgree with that, just like you disagree with me.

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Here it is aLuke who messed up the whole saying.
You can understand why aMatthew decided to couple this saying with another Q-saying (Mt 9: 39). It looks like the reason he did so was because the stuctures of the sayings somewhat resemble each other. They clearly don't belong next to each other. This saying follows naturally from the previous Q-saying about how to think and behave as a missionary in the mission of Jesus.

Q
Q 10: 16 / Luke 10: 16 = Matthew 10: 40-41
16 Whoever takes you in takes me in, and whoever takes me in takes in the One who sent me.

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 9: 40-41
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. 40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth Him that sent me. 41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

====

LUKE
Luke 10: 16
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth Him that sent me.
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
The next saying is a so-called 'sondergut' saying, i.e. a saying that appears only once in either gMatthew or gLuke but which is not considered a saying that the gospel writer would have created himself and which fits well in Q. Rather one of the authors will have seen the sondergut saying in Q but has decided that it was not useful for his purposes and left it out of his gospel. The reconstructions of Q differ in the amount of sondergut sayings they allow in.

Q
Q 10: 19-20 / Luke 10: 19-20 Sondergut
19 See, I give you authority to trample on serpents and scorpions and over all the powers of the 20 enemy. And nothing will harm you in whatever way. Nevertheless, don’t rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that you are destined for the Rule of God.

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LUKE
Luke 10: 19-20 Sondergut
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 See, I give you authority to trample on serpents and scorpions and over all the powers of the 20 enemy. And nothing will harm you in whatever way. Nevertheless, don’t rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that you are destined for the Rule of God. 21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

----------

Luke preserved the next saying best.

Q
Q 10: 23b-24 / Luke 10: 23b-24 = Matthew 13: 16-17

24 Happy the eyes that see what you are seeing! I tell you, many prophets and kings wished to see what you now see, yet never saw it; to hear what you hear, yet never heard it.

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MATTHEW
Matthew 13: 16-17
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].

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LUKE
Luke 10: 23b-24
23 And he turned him unto [his] disciples, and said privately, Blessed [are] the eyes which see the things that ye see: 24 For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them].
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Jesus was born a Jew and was well aware of the Old Testament teachings and prophesies. He understood the past, the present and where the future of the Jewish faith lied. The future, as defined by the prophesies, were not yet for filled, since the Jews were still under subjugation, this time by Rome. The stories of young Jesus, teaching in the temple, was about him discussing his novel ideas with those in the know. He was not teaching by root, but in a creative way; spirit.

Jesus changed the present, into the future, by showing the short comings of the Old Testament, as well as by filling the prophesies of the Old Testament. As history shows the influence of bible; Old and New Testament expanded well beyond the Jews. Christianity would go on to take over Rome and then define future history, as part of an evolving world super power.

The Jewish prophesies did not expect a lamb of God. Their expected Messiah who was more in the image of man of earthy wealth and divine power. This is how the Church was to become manifest. Now everyone complains, about the Old Messiah image of the Church, since the lamb was easier to kill and destroy, than the Messiah of old, who was destined to kick butt.

The Old Testament begins with Genesis and paradise. The paradise landscape changes for the humans with the sinning of Eve and Adam. As the story goes, their sin led to humans being banished from paradise, to earth, and law being imposed. They chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with is law. They choose law over instinct. Paradise is based on natural human instinct.

Satan was in paradise during Adam and Eve. Satan was condoned by God. Satan remained in heaven through the old Testament. Satan is not expelled from heaven, until Revelations of the New Testament.

Jesus said that the old way; Old Testament, was merely a shadow of the heavenly things. Shadows appear when the sun is blocked, by obstructions. In the case of the Old Testament, the blockage was due to original sin and the human alliance with the heavenly condoned, Satan. In the Old Testament, Satan was worshipped as God, via law, but he was merely a shadow of God. Prophesies required that the Satan obstruction be removed, so heaven could be seen beyond its shadow. This occurs in Revelations.

The power of sin is the law. Sin only appears when there is law. If you repeal a law, it sin is also repealed. Satan's power was sin and the power of sin came from law. To overcome Satan, Jesus did away with law. Forgiveness of sin, has the same affect as repealing all law. This legal strategy led to the demotion of Satan, since he lost his power from law. Satan is banished to the earth, where he becomes a renegade god, with Old Testament flavor, that still appeals to those without faith.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Jesus was born a Jew and was well aware of the Old Testament teachings and prophesies. He understood the past, the present and where the future of the Jewish faith lied. The future, as defined by the prophesies, were not yet for filled, since the Jews were still under subjugation, this time by Rome. The stories of young Jesus, teaching in the temple, was about him discussing his novel ideas with those in the know. He was not teaching by root, but in a creative way; spirit.

Jesus changed the present, into the future, by showing the short comings of the Old Testament, as well as by filling the prophesies of the Old Testament. As history shows the influence of bible; Old and New Testament expanded well beyond the Jews. Christianity would go on to take over Rome and then define future history, as part of an evolving world super power.

The Jewish prophesies did not expect a lamb of God. Their expected Messiah who was more in the image of man of earthy wealth and divine power. This is how the Church was to become manifest. Now everyone complains, about the Old Messiah image of the Church, since the lamb was easier to kill and destroy, than the Messiah of old, who was destined to kick butt.

The Old Testament begins with Genesis and paradise. The paradise landscape changes for the humans with the sinning of Eve and Adam. As the story goes, their sin led to humans being banished from paradise, to earth, and law being imposed. They chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, with is law. They choose law over instinct. Paradise is based on natural human instinct.

Satan was in paradise during Adam and Eve. Satan was condoned by God. Satan remained in heaven through the old Testament. Satan is not expelled from heaven, until Revelations of the New Testament.

Jesus said that the old way; Old Testament, was merely a shadow of the heavenly things. Shadows appear when the sun is blocked, by obstructions. In the case of the Old Testament, the blockage was due to original sin and the human alliance with the heavenly condoned, Satan. In the Old Testament, Satan was worshipped as God, via law, but he was merely a shadow of God. Prophesies required that the Satan obstruction be removed, so heaven could be seen beyond its shadow. This occurs in Revelations.

The power of sin is the law. Sin only appears when there is law. If you repeal a law, it sin is also repealed. Satan's power was sin and the power of sin came from law. To overcome Satan, Jesus did away with law. Forgiveness of sin, has the same affect as repealing all law. This legal strategy led to the demotion of Satan, since he lost his power from law. Satan is banished to the earth, where he becomes a renegade god, with Old Testament flavor, that still appeals to those without faith.
Wow, you sound like a true Christian!
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
The aMatthew Sondergut part about praying, fasting and alms giving is normally excluded from Q but I have included it in Q-lite because it fits very well with the tantric type of ideology of Q-lite. aLuke must have had his reasons to leave it out of his gospel.
There are more primitive types of "prayer" in gMatthew as compared to in earlier versions of gLuke.
I believe they fit well in Q-lite and the original aLuke must have had his reasons to not copy them from Q-lite.

The prayers became a ritualistic collective practice in Christianity but I believe they were originally meant to be used separately in day to day life (in a mystic way) in order to offer/surrender all of one's actions to God and to consider everything as an expression of God.

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Q
Q? / Matthew 6: 3-4, 17-18, 6-8 Sondergut

3 When you do some act of charity, do not let your left hand know 4 what your right hand is doing; your good deed must be secret and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

17 When you fast, anoint your 18 head and wash your face, so that men may not see that you are fasting, but only your Father who sees what is secret will reward you.

6 When you pray, go into a room by yourself, shut the door, and pray to your Father who is there in the secret place; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

7 In your prayers do not go babbling on like the heathen who imagine that the more they say, the more likely they 8 are to be heard. Do not imitate them. Your Father knows what your needs are before you ask Him.


Q 11: 2 / Luke 11: 2 = Matthew 6: 9-10a, (10b Sondergut)

2a When you pray, say:

2b Beloved Father (Abba),

Let Your Name be hallowed
(not in Marcion);

Marcion and early Luke prefer: Let Your Holy Spirit come.

Matthew and later Luke prefer: Let Your Rule come.

[-] Let Your Will be done.
(not in Marcion or early Luke)

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 6: 3-4, [17-18], 6-8 Sondergut
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. V erily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly. 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Matthew 6: 9-10
9a After this manner therefore pray ye:
9b Our Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
10a Thy Rule come.
10b Thy will be done
in earth, as [it is] in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 6: 17-18 Sondergut
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face; 18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

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LUKE
Luke 11: 2
2 And he said unto them,
When ye pray, say,

Our
Father which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy Rule come.
Thy will be done
as in heaven, so in earth.

====
 
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Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
I cannot be sure if Marcion's gospel with egg and scorpion was more original than bread and stone in gMatthew and gLuke. But Marcion did use an older version of gLuke. And it doesn't really change the meaning of the saying anyhow.

Q
Q 11: 9-13 / Luke 11: 9-13 = Matthew 7: 7-11

(Marcion version) 9 I tell you, ask and it will be given, search and you will find, knock and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and the one who searches finds, and the one who knocks will it be opened. 11 .. Who of you, being a father, if his son ask a fish, instead of a fish, will give him a serpent? 12 Or instead of an egg, a scorpion? 13 So if you, though evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Cosmic Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

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MATTHEW
Matthew 7: 7-11
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your cosmic Father give good things to them that ask him?

====

LUKE
Luke 11: 9-13
9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
 
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