The huge shift from Yeshua to the Christian Jesus Christ

[pearl]

The narrative part however is unreliable and mostly mythical. But they did not only add narrative, they also added a lot of extra sayings and extensions of sayings of very poor quality.

The narrative was never intended to present historical or biographical facts. The Gospels present what was believed by this Jewish cult, a faith testimony. You are not presenting anything new as Biblical critical scholarship has acknowledged the mythic purpose that serve the author's intent.

Yes, and it is this type of faith that helps to obscure and deform the original teachings of Yeshua.

And yet it is only possible for you to know 'Q' because of critical scholarship of the Gospels which preserved His sayings. The concept of resurrection was not unique to Jesus, it was already a Pharisaic belief. Unique to Jesus was the NT claim of Messiah which raises the question, 'how much did the historical Jesus know?'

 

[Marcion]

I will now go through the reconstruction of the sayings collection (there are however different reconstructions) saying by saying to demonstrate how early Christianity altered them in wording and by change of context.

 

[Marcion]

This saying and the next one are normally not included in Q because they are not a part of the double tradition (only found in gMatthew and gLuke in their Markan narrative context, so they are part of the triple tradition, not the double tradition). I believe however that they stood at the beginning of the sayings collection and were both deliberately ommited by both aMatthew and aLuke because these authors broke up the sayings collection and therefore they had no need for sayings that reflected on the sayings collection as a continuous (separate) text. They did however both copy the saying in its Markan context (Mark had chosen to use it in his gospel).

aMark chose to use only a limited number of Q-sayings in his narrative gospel. He builds his narrative around the sayings of Q (and aMatthew and aLuke then modify Mark's narrative and intersperse this with sayings from Q each in a different manner).

Note how aMatthew even mixes in yet another Q-saying within the Q-saying. aLuke tends to not move Q-sayings creatively around in the way that aMatthew does. aLuke keeps them together in blocks of sayings as he found them in Q.

Only the bold blue part is the relevant part from Q, the green/blue is the context in which it was placed by the Christian authors (blue is taken from Q).

Q
Q 8: 9-10 / Luke 8: 9-10 = Matthew 13: 11-12a, 13 (= Mark 4: 11b-12)

9 10 Unto you it has been given to know the secrets of the Rule of God; but to the rest through parables, so that looking they may not perceive; and hearing they may not understand.

====

MARK
Mark 4: 2-20
2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them,11 Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the Rule of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them. 13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive [it], and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 13: 3-17
3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the Rule of Heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard (them).

=====

LUKE
Luke 8: 4-15
4 And when much people were gathered together, and were come to him out of every city, he spake by a parable: 5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. 6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. 7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. 8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the Rule of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience.

 

[Marcion]

The second saying only appears in gMatthew (Q-sondergut saying), so it is often omited from Q.

The reason why I think it was part of Q is that aMatthew makes it appear in a Q-context and it does not have the typical style of the author and fits very well with the rest of Q ideologically.
The surrounding Q-sayings do not interact with this saying, so the reason why it appeared cannot have been motivated by wanting to redact the surrounding sayings.
So aLuke must have had a reason to not copy this saying from Q himself.

I think this Q-saying (like the first one) can also refer to the whole of the Q teachings, so I placed it almost at the top of the sayings collection as I cannot think of a more logical place for it.
Note: the blue text in the quoted narrative gospels is not usually exactly identical to the reconstructed text of Q.

The green colour indicates where aMatthew has been messing (editing) heavily with the original Q-text or adding his own text. If you want to find out how the Christian hang-ups differ from the teachings of Jesus, you should compare the style and ideology of the green texts to that of the blue text (ideally the reconstructed version).
The ideology of Jesus is straightforward, deep, clear and universal, the Christian way of thinking is muddy and religious (less spiritual).
E.g. Jesus never speaks of heaven in Q (except once only figuratively) but aMatthew does so often.

By the way (getting back to the posting above this one), you can understand why aMatthew interspersed the first Q-saying with a very different one from Q and the reason was not a very intelligent one (putting it very mildly). Not something you would expect from someone "guided by the Holy Spirit".
I said that the first two sayings are part of the triple tradition, but I should have said that only about the first saying.

Q
Q [–] / Matthew 7: 6 Sondergut

6 Do not give your rings to the dogs; do not cast your pearls to the swine; lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 7: 1-29
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.] 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[pearl]

I will now go through the reconstruction of the sayings collection (there are however different reconstructions) saying by saying to demonstrate how early Christianity altered them in wording and by change of context.

The more important question is whether this 'alteration' has affected the 'truth' of Jesus' teachings as they preserved his words.
This primitive instruction, which was at first passed on by word of mouth and then in writing--for it soon happened that many tried "to compile a narrative of the things" which concerned the Lord Jesus--was committed to writing by the sacred authors in four Gospels for the benefit of the churches, with a method suited to the peculiar purpose which each (author) set for himself. From the many things handed down they selected some things, reduced others to a synthesis, (still) others they explicated as they kept in mind the situation of the churches.

Since the meaning of a statement also depends on the sequence, the Evangelists, in passing on the words and deeds of our Saviour, explained these now in one context, now in another, depending on (their) usefulness to the readers. Consequently, let the exegete seek out the meaning intended by the Evangelist in narrating a saying or a deed in a certain way or in placing it in a certain context. For the truth of the story is not at all affected by the fact that the Evangelists relate the words and deeds of the Lord in a different order, and express his sayings not literally but differently, while preserving (their) sense.

 

[Marcion]

In order to properly evaluate whether the (I'm afraid not so sacred) narrative gospel authors were right to re-use the words of Jesus in the way they did, you first have to be able to read the original words of Jesus in their original context and understand their proper meaning.

Once you have done that, you will be able to judge whether the change of content and meaning by the authors of the narrative gospels was justified. Did they improve on the teachings of the Lord or did they do the opposite? And if they did improve the teachings of the Lord, then how come they did so in four quite different ways? Can you improve on a set of teachings in four disharmonious ways?

I personally don't see them as improvements, but as distortions in four wrong directions, leading to a religion that Jesus never wished or intended.
I would not call them heresies, because the whole idea of heresy is a Christian invention. The narrative gospel was created to fuse the teachings of Jesus with the Christian religion rather than to build on the teachings. They could not fuse the two without damaging the teachings beyond recognition and without destroying the unity of the text.

Anyway, by showing in colour what these synoptic authors did to the teachings it becomes easier to see what happened and make up you own mind about whether it was an improvement or a disaster.

 

[Marcion]

Again, aMatthew is the one who messes up the original sayings of Q more than aLuke does. He cuts them up more, scatters many of them, makes odd new combinations and changes the wording more. But not in all cases is it aLuke who follows the original text of Q most faithfully and he also preserves some Q-sayings that aLuke omitted.

Q
Q 6: 20b-23 / Luke 6: 21-23 = Matthew 5: 3-4, 6, 11-12

20b Blessed are you simple in spirit, for yours is the Rule of God. 21 Blessed are you who hunger, for your hunger will be satisfied. Blessed are you who mourn, for you will be consoled. 22 Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you because of the Son of man. Be glad and exult, for vast is your reward, for this is how they treated the prophets who were before you.

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 5: 1-12
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: 2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying, 3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the Rule of Heaven. 4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

====

LUKE
Luke 6: 19 -23
19 And the whole multitude sought to touch him: for there went virtue out of him, and healed [them] all. 20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. 21 Blessed [are ye] that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed [are ye] that weep now: for ye shall laugh. 22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you [from their company], and shall reproach [you], and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. 23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward [is] great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

=====

Q
Q 6: 27-33, 35c-36 / Luke 6: 27-33, 35c-37 = Matthew 5: 44, 5: 42, 7: 12, 5: 46-47

27 Love your enemies, 28 do good to those who hate you, bless those who take advantage of you. 30 Give to the one who asks of you and do not ask back what is yours. 29 When someone strikes you on the cheek, also offer him the other cheek. If someone grabs your coat, also leave him your shirt. 31 Do to others as you yourself wish to be treated. 32 .. If you only love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even tax collectors do the same? 36 Have compassion just like your Father has compassion, 35 c-d so you will become Sons of your Father, the Most High, for he makes his sun rise on bad and good. 35a-b Instead, love your enemies and do good, and lend without expecting a return. Your reward will be great and you will be children of God.

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 5: 42-44, 46-47
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Matthew 7: 11-13
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the pophets. 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

====

LUKE
Luke 6: 27-36
27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. 29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the [one] cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not [to take thy] coat also. 30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask [them] not again. 31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend [to them] of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and [to] the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

 

[Marcion]

Here it is aLuke who mixes in another Q saying (blue, non-bold). You can again see the reason why aLuke did so, the reason seems quite trivial and has nothing whatsoever to do with the deeper meanings of the sayings. It reveals the Christian disinterest/ignorance regarding the original teachings of Yeshua which was already demonstrated by the crude pulling apart of the teachings (Q is not a randomnly ordered collection of sayings, the original was very coherent).

Q
Q 6: 37-38, 41-42 / Luke 6: 36-38, 41-42 = Matthew 7: 1-5

37 Do not pass judgment so you are not judged. 38 What you do to another, will be done to you in equal measure. 41 Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, while the beam in your own eye you overlook?42 How can you say to your brother: Let me throw out the speck from your eye and just look at the beam in your own eye? Hypocrite, first throw out from your own eye the beam, and then you will see clearly to throw out the speck in your brother’s eye.

====

MATTHEW
Matthew 7: 1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

====

LUKE
Luke 6: 37-42

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. 39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch? 40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master. 41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 42 Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

 

[pearl]

Did they improve on the teachings of the Lord or did they do the opposite? And if they did improve the teachings of the Lord, then how come they did so in four quite different ways? Can you improve on a set of teachings in four disharmonious ways?

Unless Jesus' teachings address the circumstances of the current audiences (the churches) they will be meaningless. To improve on His teachings was not the point, but to make them heard in a way that those within hearing could identify with, be meaningful in their lives, the setting does not altar the meaning.

I personally don't see them as improvements, but as distortions in four wrong directions, leading to a religion that Jesus never wished or intended.

We do not know, with any certainty, the intent of the historical Jesus. Did He intend to start a new religion or renew His own? My guess, to renew His own.

you first have to be able to read the original words of Jesus in their original context and understand their proper meaning.

The original context would have been Jesus and his disciples of which nothing is extant, remember this is all dependent on educated guesswork.

The narrative gospel was created to fuse the teachings of Jesus with the Christian religion rather than to build on the teachings.

The realization that the expected 'end times' had not yet occurred prompted putting the oral tradition in writing for preservation for future generations.

Anyway, by showing in colour what these synoptic authors did to the teachings it becomes easier to see what happened and make up you own mind about whether it was an improvement or a disaster.

What happened is the Resurrection without which there is no Christianity, and the theology and Christology of the Evangelists in answering who and why Jesus. It is through the Jesus of the Gospels that the God of Israel is known and believed in throughout the world, beyond Judaism.
I think your use of "Q" in order to distort the Gospels is questionable since the only 'known' source concerning Jesus is the very Gospels which you refuse the validity of.

 

[Marcion]

Unless Jesus' teachings address the circumstances of the current audiences (the churches) they will be meaningless. To improve on His teachings was not the point, but to make them heard in a way that those within hearing could identify with, be meaningful in their lives, the setting does not altar the meaning.

They are not meaningless to me and I am not a Christian. The altered teachings as found in gMatthew and gLuke however have little to no meaning to me because they alter and distort the essence of the teachings and use them for a different cause that is much less spiritual, less clear and more religious, more muddy.

We do not know, with any certainty, the intent of the historical Jesus. Did He intend to start a new religion or renew His own? My guess, to renew His own.

You don't understand, the teachings in Q are not religious, they are mystic instructions for a (non-religious) spiritual cult.
The person who spoke the words clearly objected to the behaviour of religious leaders, he accuses them of not practising the spiritual cult themselves and of stopping ordinary people from learning it.

The original context would have been Jesus and his disciples of which nothing is extant, remember this is all dependent on educated guesswork.

The original context of the individual sayings is the reconstucted text of Q (Q-lite). They should be read and studied in that context alone and not in the second-hand contexts of the Christian authors of the narrative gospels. We have the reconstruction so there is no need for guesswork (except for minor disputes about the inclusion or exclusion of some of the sayings). We don't know the exact 'Sitz im Leben' of the movement in which Q was produced, but it certainly wasn't like the Christian (mythical) idea about it, which was formed later.

The realization that the expected 'end times' had not yet occurred prompted putting the oral tradition in writing for preservation for future generations.

That is Christian myth. The sayings gospel was a written text that was deliberately abandoned after the Church abused it for its own needs. A similar thing happened with the original Pauline pseudo-letters of the Marcionite Church (no Marcionite Bible was ever found although the Marcionite Church had been at least as large as the Church centered on Rome).

What happened is the Resurrection without which there is no Christianity, and the theology and Christology of the Evangelists in answering who and why Jesus. It is through the Jesus of the Gospels that the God of Israel is known and believed in throughout the world, beyond Judaism.
I think your use of "Q" in order to distort the Gospels is questionable since the only 'known' source concerning Jesus is the very Gospels which you refuse the validity of.

Your way of thinking is natural for a Christian. However, as was the case with the accusations against Marcion of his shortening gLuke and the Pauline pseudo-letters, it is exactly the other way round, i.e. it was the Christian Church which during its syncretic development lengthened and distorted the more original teachings and created its own peculiar mix/fusion. The apologetic lying in their anti-heretical writings against Marcion are extra proof that this is the way it happened because those lies are quite easy to see through when you actually compare the text differences they discuss.

There is no need for speculation, when you see how the authors distorted the originals each in their own peculiar way, you can actually follow their separate ways of thinking and how this distorted the ideology of Q, possibly that of Jesus Himself. Evangelical or fundamentalist Christians then put over on top of this yet another layer of distortion of their own.

 

[sooda]

Firstly Yeshua is the Hebrew Tertagrammaton name of Jesus. Jesus is a real person not a mythical made up person. First off Abraham and Moses prophesied about Jesus who is the Messiah. If you do research you would find that Jesus is a direct line descendant of King David. Also in Jewish history the Pharisses and Saducees wanted to kill Jesus. So to say Jesus is a mythical figure is to say those Pharisees wanted to do away with an imaginary person. Plus God himself bore witness that Jesus is the Christ in Matthew 3:17- This is my son the beloved whom I have approved. God himself bore witness and spoke of Jesus. Now the new testament some people disregard but it is called the Christian Greek scriptures because the language of the people started to change at that time due to the fact the Jews came under the Roman empire rule for a time and people started speaking Greek. So thats why it wasn't written in Hebrew Matthew to Revelation. Just as the english language has changed over time, we no longer read translations that say thee, thou, most people don't speak that way or understand it. So the new testament was written in Greek so that people of that tine can understand Gods word. Also the apostle Paul who was a Jew and a Roman citizen bore witness about Jesus. Before he became a Christian he was prominent in Judaism and used to persecute Christians, but he changed and boldly taught the truth about the Christ that he is the messiah, Paul was also raised in the rabbinic schools and was a Pharisee before becoming a Christian. So if Jesus was a mythical figure how could a prominent Jew and Pharisee like Paul who highly regarded the teachings of Abraham and Moses follow Jesus as a disciple of his if he wasn't real? Also angels from heaven gave testimony of Jesus when he was born in Luke chap 2 to the sheperds in the field, and the priest Simeon and prophetess Anna who was never missing from the temple testified to seeing Jesus. And after Jesus ressurection 1 Corinthians 15:6 the apostle Paul wrote under inspiration from God that over 500 people gave witness that they saw Jesus. So with Historical facts, Jesus lineage, eye witness accounts, Gods own voice from heaven, and the persecution he recieved from the pharisses and religious leaders. Their is far to much evidence to even say Jesus was not a real person. So don't speak unless you have factual proof because I got the evidence and proof that for a certainly God made Jesus Lord and Christ.

Paul of Tarsus (a city in Cilicia, in what is now Turkey), was also known by the Jewish name of Saul. Paul, a name he may have had thanks to his Roman citizenship, was born early in the first century CE or late in the last century BCE in a Greek-speaking area of the Roman Empire. His parents came from Gischala, in Galilee.

 

[pearl]

The person who spoke the words clearly objected to the behaviour of religious leaders, he accuses them of not practising the spiritual cult themselves and of stopping ordinary people from learning it.

Isn't the same teaching found in MT and LK, the 'Woes', Jesus opposes the 'religious' corruption of the Torah.

The original context of the individual sayings is the reconstucted text of Q (Q-lite).

Reconstructed from the Gospels. We could go round and round on this one. "Q" remains a hypothetical, which presents at the present the most probable solution to the 'synoptic' problem.

Your way of thinking is natural for a Christian. However, as was the case with the accusations against Marcion of his shortening gLuke and the Pauline pseudo-letters,

Didn't Marcion reject all of Hebrew Scripture and the Gospels save for Luke and Paul? You might enjoy Jefferson's Bible. Thomas Jefferson also was not a Christian. He understood Jesus to be no more than 'the greatest moral teacher', but the rest was mere 'hocus pocus'.

 

[Marcion]

Reconstructed from the Gospels. We could go round and round on this one. "Q" remains a hypothetical, which presents at the present the most probable solution to the 'synoptic' problem.

That a copy has not yet been found is not a strong argument. The existence of Q as a lost text (but luckily still reconstructable from the synoptic gospels) is widely accepted by biblical scholars. Besides, the text is so much stronger than it's narrative damaged and weakened derivatives, that it cannot and should not be ignored or trivialised. That such collections of sayings were made and kept can be seen from the gospel of Thomas.

In the next example aLuke leaves the saying in tact, but aMatthew adds a lot of useless extra text and splits up the original saying.

Q
Q 6: 43-45 / Luke 6: 43-45 = Matthew 7: 15-16b; 18-19, 12: 33-35

43 .. No healthy tree bears rotten fruit, nor does a decayed tree bear healthy fruit. 44 For from the fruit the tree is known. Are figs picked from thorns, or grapes from thistles? 45 The good person from his good treasure casts up good things, and the evil person from the evil treasure casts up evil things. For from exuberance of heart one’s mouth speaks.

===

MATTHEW
Matthew 7: 15-19
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 12: 33-35
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit. 34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

====

LUKE
Luke 6: 43-45
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes. 45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.

Isn't the same teaching found in MT and LK, the 'Woes', Jesus opposes the 'religious' corruption of the Torah.

In the woes in Q, Yeshua attacks the hypocrisy of religious leaders, not the religious corruption of the Torah. This saying will follow later in this thread.

IDidn't Marcion reject all of Hebrew Scripture and the Gospels save for Luke and Paul?

Yes, Marcion agreed with aLuke's rejection of gMatthew as not being a good enough gospel version. gLuke was inspired on gMatthew but shorn of it's emphasis on Jewish Christianity and with a different birth narrative and other changes.
There were earlier (shorter) versions of gLuke of which Marcion's version was just one.
The present version of gLuke in the New Testament is a heavily edited version.

There was no such thing as a New Testament when Marcion came with the first Christian Bible.
He did not actively reject other writings but just did not consider them as useful scripture.
It was Marcion's Bible which inspired the orthodox side of Christianity to establish an alternative Bible including much more texts than in the Bible of the Marcionite Church.

If the Bible of Marcion had included the text of Q, it would have been better, but that text was probably already considered redundant and an awkward hindrance to the Christian religion.

 

[pearl]

In the next example aLuke leaves the saying in tact, but aMatthew adds a lot of useless extra text and splits up the original saying.

Because it suited the author's purpose in the present circumstances of his church.

In the woes in Q, Yeshua attacks the hypocrisy of religious leaders, not the religious corruption of the Torah.

It is this corruption of heart of the Torah that Jesus accuses them of; making it impossible for the common people to meet the requirements added by them.

 

[Marcion]

Because it suited the author's purpose in the present circumstances of his church.

Yes, the syncretic Christanity had no need for the mystic teachings of Yeshua. All the believers had to do is follow and obey the bishops, believe their Christian ideas and myths and take part in their religious rituals. The sayings or parts of the sayings were pasted into the mythical stories in much the same way as you would reutilize old Roman pieces of stone or column from a pagan building into the masonry of a new church building.

 

[pearl]

Yes, the syncretic Christanity had no need for the mystic teachings of Yeshua. All the believers had to do is follow and obey the bishops, believe their Christian ideas and myths and take part in their religious rituals.

Belief in the D/R of Jesus preceded any bishop or organized Christian religion, as they remained Jews.

 

[wellwisher]

Christianity was successful because it was scalable. This was possible because it was designed to be more inclusive. It was about the inner man instead of the outer man of culture.

The Old Testament was more exclusionary and therefore was not scalable. You needed a physical blood line connection to the tribe. The Old Testament was also based on the outer man, as defined by the cultural superego created by the Old Testament. There were very specific rules, laws and rituals.

The New Testament was more inclusive, since it was about the inner man, which is collective, but in the greater sense of being connected to human nature, that is common to all humans. Adam was originally about human nature and not about law. Law was more or less a curse.

The mythology of Christianity appeals to children and is easy to remember throughout life. Mythology is analogous to compressed files, in computing. These are small and can be easily learned early in life. Later in life, these file can be de-compressed to get extra meaning and detail. The compressed file format, makes it portable and able to appeal to younger demographics. It does not take up much memory space, until you open the files. If you don't open it, the low space requirement allows it to remain. Even atheists can remember the mythology even though they never try to open it.

Jesus did away wth law and replaced it by a gospel of faith. The big difference between the two s law is something you memorize. While faith is more connected to a creative process. Faith is trust in things not seen. Law is more tangible in terms of cultural cause and affect. You cannot memorize faith, since it is about the future, and not the immediate present or past. This future looking attitude is why Christian nations have been so successful.

 

[Marcion]

Belief in the D/R of Jesus preceded any bishop or organized Christian religion, as they remained Jews.

We don't know enough about the very early stages of Christianity. All we know is that the users of gMatthew were more Jewish and those using gLuke were not.

The syncretic phase had started ealier before gMark was written because the Helenistic type of belief in the resurrected God/Jesus had already been mixed into the faith and the gospel story. The discarding of Q must have started with the writing of gMatthew and the discarding of such important teachings as found in Q must be related to the emergence of the faith in the D/R myth and the beginning of the power of bishops/priests who performed the rituals that are part of the Christian faith (connected to the D/R myth).

 

[pearl]

We don't know enough about the very early stages of Christianity.

This is true. However, a study of the early liturgy from the beginning of the 2nd century does offer many clues through literary sources; Justin (155), the Didache , early 2nd cent., contains the eucharistic prayers, Apostolic tradition of Hippolytus, (215). Through literary criticism much has been gained into early Christianity.
I agree with you 100% on the existence of "Q" discerned in Mt and LK. I do not agree that the NT distorted this material, but that the many interpretations of it there is distortion. Concerning the 1st stage of the NT compilation, Jesus' public ministry, memories of what was said and done by a Jew who lived in Galilee and Jerusalem in the 20's and his speaking, issues he faced and outlook were those of a specific time and place. Distortion arises when those who read the Gospels remove him from space and time and imagine he was dealing with issues he never encountered.

 

[pearl]

If you don't open it, the low space requirement allows it to remain. Even atheists can remember the mythology even though they never try to open it.

If myth is perceived to be no more than fiction, there is no reason to put away the things of a child and 'open it',