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The historical Paul

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Not all. Matthew probably could write. so you fail there
What possible evidence do you have for that?
the proper answer is, we dont know.
I find that to be wasteful. If you want to just brush all off to we don't know, then why bother even discussing this?
you would not stay employed for 3 years hunting jews unless you had results.

What were these unknown results, how many of the real apostles did paul murder??

How do you know it was three years? More so, no one had to die. There is no suggestion he murdered anyone. Persecution does not imply murder.
And there definitely isn't evidence Paul killed any apostles. In fact, all the writings we have suggest otherwise. Paul himself says he was unknown in Judea.

For someone who claims to be following the most modern scholars and being right in the middle, you clearly don't show it.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
For someone who claims to be following the most modern scholars and being right in the middle, you clearly don't show it.

I said I was investigating this.

murder ya a little far.


but he hunted and captured people, no way he could miss a real apostle as few as there were
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Is it your position that the Bible is not accurate in its portrayal of Paul?

You're the one who is constantly criticizing the Bible for its supposed lack of "historicity" concerning Paul... you're question seems a bit disingenuous... :rolleyes:


are you serious???


you do know only 7 letters are attributed to paul.

you also know Act's contradicts Paul dont you?
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
you said so ;)
I don't think I did. At least not for definite. If I did, then I was mistaken.

I said I was investigating this.

murder ya a little far.


but he hunted and captured people, no way he could miss a real apostle as few as there were
No, he persecuted people. To what extent that persecution went, we don't know. It isn't necessary that he hunted people and captured them. We are just told that he persecuted people. Again, we don't to what extent this persecution went.

It definitely does not suggest that he hunted, captured, or killed the apostles. Unless you are using a very vague definition of apostle. And still, it wouldn't even suggest that he killed an apostle then. What we have from his writings, and Acts, suggests that he never killed an apostle. For one, if he had, he most likely would not have been accepted by the Jerusalem church (which contained two apostles, and the brother of Jesus). And Paul himself says he never was known in Judea.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
We do so because the New Testament is mainly fiction and apologetic stuff, so making historical claims using it, is impossible.
Actually, most of the New Testament doesn't contain fiction. Most of it is composed up of letters. Not fiction. As for being apologetic, not really. That wouldn't come until later. Most of it is directions and answers to various churches.
That signature and that writing style doesn't mean a thing, there are many other pseudo-graphical signatures in the New Testament. It could just as well be the style of Marcion. My point is that there is no work of reference that can actually be placed in the first century.
Well besides internal references that firmly places their writing in the first century. Such as the figures mentioned, being completely oblivious to the destruction of the Temple, etc.

Not to mention that when even non-Christian scholars date the work of Paul, they also date it earlier.

And no, it can't be the style of Marcion because it simply doesn't match up. How do we know this? Because we can compare the two.
The dating is wrong.
I highly doubt that as it is consistently dated to around that time. If you want to argue otherwise, you better make a good argument.
Yes, that is a good question. Faking letters of people who were thought of as having contributed to the early movement was the norm in the second century. There was no need whatsoever for any "real" early historical letters. Besides that, the epistles aren't real letters at all, they are apologetic pamphlets imitating letters [quite poorly].
I have to assume you have never read the letters then. Because they look and feel just like letters from the ancient world. How do we know this? By looking at other letters. Now, the book of Hebrews looks more apologetic, but it really isn't a letter, and it isn't by Paul.

And no, it wasn't the norm to write in someone else's name in the second century. And when people did, there works usually were not followed for too long. As in, by the second century, people were knowing which writings were older.
That is no argument because if Marcion was the real author, then you are by that method merely telling which letters were by Marcion and which were written by his others in his church.
But we can compare the work of Marcion, and the work of Paul, and see that they are different. Not to mention, that the Early Church fathers also could tell the difference. They hardly would have kept forged writings by Marcion, while claiming Marcion a heretic.
You don't understand the meaning of the signatures of the NT writings. Every writing or sub-text in the NT had to attributed to an "early" apostle or to Jesus himself even though such writings were largely absent. None of the people who knew Jesus wrote anything, but most NT writings were written in their names pseudo-graphically after the first century had passed.
I fully understand such meanings. That is my main area of study (as in the early history of Christianity). However, nearly all, if not all, of the writings of the NT were written in the first century. That is the accepted scholarly consensus. Now, if you have a problem with that, and want to claim it as wrong, you need to show your evidence and show why it is more reasonable to believe that what is already accepted.
He does do that over and over. I could make a separate tread about it, the writer of the original letters was definitely someone with gnostic or mystic beliefs.
Only if you want to see such in his work, and then ignore the Jewish heritage. You really can read anything you want in a book. The problem is the aspect of want here.
Then where are your proofs in genuine extra-canonical first century writings? Or even first century original fragments of the letters or gospels? There are none.
There are no need for them either. We don't have the originals for nearly any ancient document. That doesn't mean they didn't exist. That is where textual criticism comes into play.

As for proofs in extra-canonical first century writings? Again, not needed, as we know the originals came from that time. There is no reason to assume that they were mentioned in extra-canonical work though as the works themselves were addressed specifically to churches, and probably were not spread very far anyway. Not to mention, we don't require such with other ancient works. So really, you are special pleading here.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I don't think I did. At least not for definite. If I did, then I was mistaken.

No, he persecuted people. To what extent that persecution went, we don't know. It isn't necessary that he hunted people and captured them. We are just told that he persecuted people. Again, we don't to what extent this persecution went.

It definitely does not suggest that he hunted, captured, or killed the apostles. Unless you are using a very vague definition of apostle. And still, it wouldn't even suggest that he killed an apostle then. What we have from his writings, and Acts, suggests that he never killed an apostle. For one, if he had, he most likely would not have been accepted by the Jerusalem church (which contained two apostles, and the brother of Jesus). And Paul himself says he never was known in Judea.

but your putting trust in paul.

a man who states he got his whole theology from a dead guy.

a man who persecuted christians, and if they ended up like Stephen they were killed.


he would be known in Judea if he headhunted there.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
but your putting trust in paul.

a man who states he got his whole theology from a dead guy.

a man who persecuted christians, and if they ended up like Stephen they were killed.


he would be known in Judea if he headhunted there.

Yet he wasn't known there so by your logic he didn't headhunt there. He was never a headhunter anyway.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
I still didn't see any convincing arguments that the letters were written by a historical first century Paul.
I guess that settles the matter, only religious people who mix myth with fact will still believe the letters were actually written in the first century by a historical Paul.

With a rational approach to scriptures, there can be no compromise, you always need real proof from independent sources before you may call aspects of a myth fact.
We have no original writings of the historical Paul, only second century scriptures produced by and/or edited by the main body of the church of that time.
Until we do find such original writings we will have to accept that the letters are probably pseudo-graphical like most of the new testament scriptures are.
 
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fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I still didn't see any convincing arguments that the letters were written by a historical first century Paul.
I guess that settles the matter, only religious people who mix myth with fact will still believe the letters were actually written in the first century by a historical Paul.

With a rational approach to scriptures, there can be no compromise, you always need real proof from independent sources before you may call aspects of a myth fact.
We have no original writings of the historical Paul, only second century scriptures produced by and/or edited by the main body of the church of that time.
Until we do find such original writings we will have to accept that the letters are probably pseudo-graphical like most of the new testament scriptures are.
Or in other words, you have no evidence for your claims and would rather just make dismissive remarks.

Also, scholars who are not religious place the dating of Paul's letters in the first century and accept that Paul wrote them. So your argument fails.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Yet he wasn't known there so by your logic he didn't headhunt there. He was never a headhunter anyway.

what ever you want to call when you chase down percieved criminals and turn them over to the authorities that more or less without trial, kill you.


Anyway regardless, paul was responsible for terrible act's to the would be christian sect. YET the letters/book is silent on this matter.

Why? how much damage did he do?


this early in the movement, it was so small, and dont we have apostles saying they were in jail but magically escaped??
 
Why? how much damage did he do?
How does this fit into your "investigation" you claim to be doing?

It is as if, you are trying desperately to paint a picture out of infantile, sloppy and loose methods. What is your goal here, to simply argue from a position of opinion?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He was never a headhunter anyway.
Then how do you explain THIS ancient portrayal of Paul (c. 60 CE) found in various churches across Judaea:
cza0264l.jpg


quod erat demonstrandum
 

outhouse

Atheistically
How does this fit into your "investigation" you claim to be doing?

It is as if, you are trying desperately to paint a picture out of infantile, sloppy and loose methods. What is your goal here, to simply argue from a position of opinion?

Investigating the damge paul did.

since its not written anywhere, sloppy and loose guesses is all you can expect to get from a question as such.

even if it was written, it would then be open to more speculation.
 
Investigating the damge paul did.

since its not written anywhere, sloppy and loose guesses is all you can expect to get from a question as such.

even if it was written, it would then be open to more speculation.
What you are doing though is stripping material out of context, in this case the life of Paul, and trying to create or surmount something that isn't possible?
If you know it isn't possible, why do it?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
What you are doing though is stripping material out of context, in this case the life of Paul, and trying to create or surmount something that isn't possible?
If you know it isn't possible, why do it?


paul perecuted this sect of jews.

who hired him?

how long did he hunt jews?

how many did he kill?


these are all great questions to explore, now either you have guesses or you dont
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
what ever you want to call when you chase down percieved criminals and turn them over to the authorities that more or less without trial, kill you.


Anyway regardless, paul was responsible for terrible act's to the would be christian sect. YET the letters/book is silent on this matter.

Why? how much damage did he do?


this early in the movement, it was so small, and dont we have apostles saying they were in jail but magically escaped??
There is no mention that they were perceived criminals. You're simply making things up there. They are simply a different sect. Paul does not call them criminals, nor does anyone else. It should be kept in mind that not everyone who is persecuted are criminals. They may just have a different belief then you.

There is no suggestion that Paul turned these individuals over to the authorities, that there were no trials, or that they were killed. You're making things up again. Paul, and Acts, never tells us to what extent this persecution went. More so, it could have ended in nothing more than a whipping or the like. We don't know. Making things up though doesn't make them true.

And how do you know that Paul was responsible for terrible acts against the Christian sect? Paul and Acts are upfront that Paul persecuted such people. That really isn't silence. Now, he may not go into detail, but that doesn't mean one can base an argument on silence, like you are doing. In effect, you're making things up.

And no, we don't have other apostles saying they were in jail. We have Acts stating such. Acts never puts this with Paul placing them in jail, or leading them to jail, or associated in anyway. So you can't claim such. Especially when Paul is clear that he wasn't in Judea, nor was known there. So again, your suggestion is based on make believe.

When we come down to it, your entire argument consists of making things up.

paul perecuted this sect of jews.

who hired him?

how long did he hunt jews?

how many did he kill?


these are all great questions to explore, now either you have guesses or you dont
These really are ridiculous questions. First, there is no suggestion he killed any. To ask such a question is misleading, and I think that is on purpose. There is no suggestion he was hired by anyone, and there is no need for that. Paul implies he did it on his own. To suggest otherwise is misleading. As for how long he persecuted (he did not hunt anyone, and to imply such is misleading), we don't know. But there is no reason to use that to make up an argument.

There is no reason to explore any of those questions besides, how long did he persecute Christians. The other ones are baseless.

So your argument then comes down to misleading people, and making things up. This isn't in the realm of modern scholarship, and is extremely extremely liberal.
 
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