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Featured The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was fully human. Jesus was the human manifestation of God. His human body was created in the womb making Him the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) So of course He prayed to God. It's part of the human experience. Jesus could not except Himself. Jesus came to face everything we must face; including the need for prayer.

    It was more than that. He was going around founding churches. When he founded a church it was from the authority God gave him and the miracles being done proved he was an apostle appointed by God.

    2 Corinthians 12:12
    Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.
     
  2. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    He was not one of the 12 chosen by Jesus. He was given a mission by Jesus as he 'witnessed' at his encounter.
     
  3. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    74x12 wrote...…. Jesus was fully human.

    The Anointed...…. He certainly was, as he had been born of the union of Mary and her half brother Joseph, who had both been sired by Heli/Alexander Helios.

    74x12 wrote...…. Jesus was the human manifestation of God.

    The Anointed...…. He certainly was. He was the one chosen from among the Israelites as seen in Deuteronomy 18: 18; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, says to Moses; "I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put my words into his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command and I will punish all who will not give heed to MY WORD which he will speak in my name..

    Peter confirms that Jesus was that man, when, concerning the man Jesus, he says in. Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

    Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

    John 5: 24; "Whoever hears my words, (Which were the Words of YHVH/Who I Am, that he commanded the man that he had chosen from among the people, to speak in his name) and believes in “HIM” who sent me, has eternal life.

    All the words spoken by Jesus and all the miracles, were the words and the miracles of the Lord God our savior who filled the man Jesus with his spirit. The man Jesus was certainly the human manifestation of God.
     
  4. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    Ananias was told this by Jesus: "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel"

    That sounds like a sending out by Jesus to me and that is simply what an apostle is: a sent out one.
     
  5. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe eternal life is the Gospel of Jesus and helping others is acquired by having Jesus as Lord and Savior.
     
  6. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    I think its best to be guided by Paul's own account of his encounter and not Luke's account which includes added details, embellishment. Paul bases his apostleship on his having been a witness to the risen Christ as were the eleven before him.
     
  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Gospel of John proves that Jesus is not God. Before his half brother Thomas Didymus Jude called him God, Jesus had said to Mary Magdalene in John 20: 17; "Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet ascended to THE Father: But go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my father and your Father to my God and your God.
     
  8. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    This is really an obvious concept and I've explained it; I don't know how many times but okay.

    The fact that Jesus is fully human means He does have a Father and a God(Creator). The body is created. (Hebrews 10:5) But even though the body is created. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given ..." (Isaiah 9:6) and " ... for I am fearfully and wonderfully made ..." (Psalm 139:14)
    Yet, the Spirit is not created and is God. "and His name shall be called ... The mighty God, The everlasting Father ..." (Isaiah 9:6)

    Colossians 2:8-9
    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
     
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  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Jesus was definitely born of Human parents, Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios III also called 'Heli.'.

    it was not until the day of his baptism that he became the chosen heir and successor to the throne of the Most High in the creation, when the spirit of 'The Son of Man' descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly voice was heard to say, "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee.

    Jesus was the one that our Lord God and savior promised Moses that he would choose from among the Israelites and send him to speak in his name: Deuteronomy 18: 18; " I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I myself will punish.

    The man Jesus was born the son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of our Lord who filled him with his spirit/words on the day of his baptism, when the Lord said concerning him; "You are my son, THIS DAY I have begotten thee."

    The flesh is of no use at all said the Lord through his earthly host body, [His earthly temple] it is the spirit that gives life and my WORDS are spirit, etc.

    “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?” They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by the Lord God our saviour, who raised that body which he had filled with his spirit.

    Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

    1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

    2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

    Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus-

    Jesus was the earthly host body through who the spirit of our Lord God and savior (The anointed one) revealed himself to mankind.

    Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day (A period of one thousand years) in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a man he has chosen. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that man from death.

    The DAY that the Lord God our saviour has fixed, in which He will judge the whole world with Justice, is “The Day of the Lord,” the Sabbath Day, or the seventh period of one thousand years, the seventh day from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930. The Great Sabbath, which is the future reality of the weekly Sabbath as revealed by Paul.

    From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; “And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ‘On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.”

    We are now at the close of the sixth day, from that first day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, at the age of 930.
     
  10. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    This day I have begotten thee (from the dead). It was about the resurrection which the scripture clearly states. (Acts 13:33) Romans 1:4 is even more certain as it directly declares that He is declared the Son of God by the resurrection.

    (Romans 1:4)
    And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    This man has the power how? Did He receive all power when He was baptized or through the resurrection? He said "All power is given to me in heaven and in earth" after the resurrection. This is when He was declared the Son of God. Begotten again from the dead.

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5)

    And how does any thing you said disprove Jesus being God manifest anyway?

    The point here is that Jesus is God manifest in human form. God Himself. God Almighty came to take all power to Himself and reign in human form. He did not need any power for Himself. We need it. That's why the Almighty needed to take power for Himself and reign. Because He would do so in human form.

    Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. (Revelation 11:17)

    So unless you can explain how the Almighty God needed to take power to Himself and reign; then you have to admit that Jesus is God manifest.

    Because it makes no sense for an Almighty Being to take power to Himself. He already has all power. So He only needed to take power to Himself in the form of a man for our sakes. To save us.
     
  11. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus of Nazareth spoke to Saul from the blinding light, he did not appear in human form, and nor will he be in human form when he takes his heavenly throne as the chosen heir and successor to the Most High in the creation.

    Deuteronomy 18: 18; " I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I myself will punish.

    You should take heed of the WORDS of our Lord God and savior who spoke through the mouth of the man Jesus, who he chose from among the Israelites to speak in his name.

    What WORDS came out of the mouth of the man Jesus, which were not the WORDS of our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man,' the Most High in the creation?

    It was the Lord when speaking to the Samaritan woman through the mouth of Jesus, said; "I, who speak to you am HE."
     
    #31 The Anointed, Sep 1, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2018
  12. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Okay, what does it matter if He was in human form or not when He spoke to Saul?

    Jesus and the most High God are One and the Same. God came in human form to take all power to Himself and reign. He came to do so in the form of the Son of man so that by this power He could save all those who believe on Him.

    People will never understand Jesus until they understand that all He does in human form is for their sake because it's what we could not do for ourselves.

    Jesus was the Light of God shining in the darkness of the world. There is no other. Jesus is the Father of lights ... as John says of Him, He is the One who lightens every man who comes into the world.

    John 1:9
    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

    James 1:17
    Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

    Jesus is the Almighty God the only Father. YHVH. There is no other God.

    Jesus is the Light and wants us to be His own children. So we can be Light also. Jesus is the Father and there is no other God. He came into the world to make us again His own children because we had all gone astray. Whenever anyone looks to Him their faces are enlightened but we had all turned away. Jesus came the express image of God into the world to turn us again to the Father.

    of YHVH it is written:
    They looked unto him, and were lightened: and their faces were not ashamed. (Psalm 34:4)

    and of the Lord Jesus:
    But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

    None. Everything Jesus said was the Word of God.
     
  13. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Anointed wrote....... What WORDS came out of the mouth of the man Jesus, which were not the WORDS of our Lord God and savior, 'The Son of Man,' the Most High in the creation?

    74x12 responded......…. None. Everything Jesus said was the Word of God.

    The Anointed...….. Of course they were the Words of the Lord God our saviour, don't you remember reading.....Deuteronomy 18: 18; " I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. And whoever will not give heed to MY WORDS which he shall speak in my name, I myself will punish.

    You should take heed of the WORDS of our Lord God and savior who spoke through the mouth of the man Jesus, who he chose from among the Israelites to speak in his name.

    Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our ancestors has given divine glory to his servant Jesus.

    If Jesus were God he could have raised himself from death, but he couldn't and he didn't.

    These are the words of 'The Son of Man' our Lord God and savior, who spoke through the mouth of Jesus.....“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?” They were the words that Jesus was commanded to say by the Lord God our saviour, who raised that body which he had filled with his spirit.

    Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

    1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

    2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

    Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus-

    Jesus was the earthly host body through who the spirit of our Lord God and savior (The anointed one) revealed himself to mankind.

    Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day (A period of one thousand years) in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

    The DAY that the Lord God our saviour has fixed, in which He will judge the whole world with Justice, is “The Day of the Lord,” the Sabbath Day, or the seventh period of one thousand years, the seventh day from the first day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930. The Great Sabbath, which is the future reality of the weekly Sabbath as revealed by Paul.

    From the Book of Jubilees 4: 30; “And He (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: ‘On the day thou eat thereof ye shall die.’ For this reason Adam did not complete the years of that first day; for He died during it.”

    74x12 wrote...…… "This day I have begotten thee (from the dead)."

    The Anointed...…. it was some 3 years before his death and resurrection by our Lord God and savior, that those words were spoken to the man Jesus on the day of his baptism, when he was born of the spirit.

    We are now at the close of the sixth day, from that first day that Adam ate of the forbidden fruit, at the age of 930.

    John 10: 18; "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

    Those were the words of our Lord who had filled the man Jesus with his spirit, and who abandoned his chosen successor on the cross and ceased to an individual entity by releasing the spirits on who he had evolved up until the day of Jesus, when the graves of those righteous spirits were opened and three days later, they entered the city and revealed themselves to many.

    You neither know our Father or his chosen heir and successor, who, at the age of 365 was carried to the throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as the heir and successor.to our heavenly Father.
     
  14. DPMartin

    DPMartin Member

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    Joh_5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.


    Hence your complaint that there is no scriptural proof that the meaning was that Jesus is who John says He is. The scriptures show that it was the Jewish understanding that being “Son of God” makes Him equal with God therefore for God to those that are not God.


    The Father Son and Holy Spirit are the Father - God, the Son - the Word of God that is of God, and the Spirit of God being the very Presence of God. Just as you in the flesh which is your presence, the words that you express and you. Your presence is you, your words are you, and you are you. Hence God, Word of God and the Holy Spirit are One and all three are God to anything not God.


    You should note that all living things are, and express themselves to other living things in proximity to their presence.
     
  15. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or taking some kind of middle ground or disagreeing. Sorry. :confused:
     
  16. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    YEA! Righto. Your words are all double Dutch to me, sorry mate.

    The man Jesus was not the WORD. He was the man that our savior, 'The Son of Man' who is the Most High in the creation, and who was anointed to serve 'The Father' before the body of Adam [mankind] into all eternity, had chosen from among the Israelites and who put his words into the mouth of the man Jesus and sent him to the people to speak in his name.
     
  17. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    The very fact that Jesus, in three of the gospels, is definitively resurrected from the dead, is cause enough for us to maintain that the biblical writers saw Jesus as God.

    1) The biblical writers were STRONGLY monotheistic, such that the OT writers could not bring themselves to talk about life after death, because dead ancestors in the Canaanite culture were seen to have godlike powers.
    2) THE sin in Israel is idolatry: worshiping other gods. Yet, the gospel writers and Paul have people doing obeisance to Jesus.

    Because the writers have Jesus resurrected, and because people do obeisance to him, the underlying message is that Jesus is God.
     
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  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Sojourner wrote........ The very fact that Jesus, in three of the gospels, is definitively resurrected from the dead, is cause enough for us to maintain that the biblical writers saw Jesus as God.

    The Anointed...……In Three Gospels????? The man Jesus was risen from death by God and the four biblical gospel writer knew that.

    Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

    1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

    2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

    If Jesus, [By the resurrection] is God, as you have suggested, then all who are going to be resurrected with him by God, are GOD. "I don't think so."

    Acts 3: 13; The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has given divine glory to his servant Jesus-

    Jesus was the earthly host body through who the spirit of our Lord God and savior (The anointed one) revealed himself to mankind.

    Act 17: 31; For he (The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.) has fixed a day (A period of one thousand years) in which he will judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN he has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

    The biblical writers knew that Jesus was a man, who has been chosen by God as our King and High Priest.

    John 20: 17; Jesus said to Mary Magdalene; "Go and tell by brothers that I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
     
    #38 The Anointed, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  19. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    Mark’s original ending doesn’t show us a resurrected Jesus — only an empty tomb. Like Daniel, it implies resurrection by pointing to a metaphor.

    No, because when the gospels were written, Jesus was the only resurrected one. All other dead people are still “asleep.”

    Ascension is also reserved for gods.
     
  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Sojourner wrote...…. Mark’s original ending doesn’t show us a resurrected Jesus — only an empty tomb. Like Daniel, it implies resurrection by pointing to a metaphor..

    The Anointed....... The earliest and most reliable manuscripts of Mark end at Mark 16:8, with the women fleeing in fear from the empty tomb: the majority of recent scholars believe this to be the original ending, The women who have followed Jesus come to the tomb on Sunday morning; they find it empty, and are told by a young man in a white robe to go and tell the others that Jesus has risen and has gone before them to Galilee; "but they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid

    Sojourner wrote…… No, because when the gospels were written, Jesus was the only resurrected one. All other dead people are still “asleep.”

    The Anointed...…. Plus all the Saints whose graves were opened when the spirit of our Lord God and savior abandoned Jesus on the cross, which resurrected bodies three days later entered the city and showed themselves to many.

    Sojourner wrote…… Ascension is also reserved for gods.

    The Anointed...…. Plus all who are found worthy of the resurrection, of which the man Jesus was the first fruits, the fist to be harvested from the body of mankind.
     
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