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Featured The Gospel of John Claims that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by 74x12, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    Correct. As we read in Proverbs 30:4 which basically proves Jesus is considered One with the Father.
     
  2. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    So all who are counted worthy of the resurrection and ascend to our Father in heaven, are GOD, One with the Father.

    The Kingdom of God is within. Where are all the spiritual bodies whose graves were opened when the Lord abandoned Jesus on the cross? Are they roaming about on this earth? Or are they within the spiritual dimension that coexists within our seemingly physical world?
     
    #42 The Anointed, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  3. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    You can't ascend like He did. You are "caught up" perhaps. (2 Corinthians 12:2) You are whisked away in a fiery chariot or whirlwind and carried to heaven. You are maybe "translated". But you don't ascend like Jesus did.

    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

    Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

    And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (Genesis 28:12)

    And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. (Genesis 28:17)

    And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. (John 1:51)

    Jesus is the "Gate of heaven" the angels ascend and descend on. Jesus is the Stone that was anointed. The "pillow" for Jacob's head. Because Jesus gives rest.

    For who is God save YHVH? or who is a rock save our God? (Psalm 18:31)

    And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? (Luke 20:17)

    And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (1 Samuel 8:7)

    But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. (John 19:15)

    Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. (Zechariah 9:9)

    Since, Samuel (and even before) the people rejected their King who is God. The nation of Israel won't be restored until they accept their King: God. That is why in that day there will be One YHVH and His name One.

    Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

    Therefore the Messiah: the King of Israel must be God. The same God they rejected as reigning over them. But He in mercy restores the Kingdom. Making the throne of David united with the throne of heaven. God with us. Immanuel.
     
  4. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    74x12 wrote…… You can't ascend like He did. You are "caught up" perhaps. (2 Corinthians 12:2) You are whisked away in a fiery chariot or whirlwind and carried to heaven. You are maybe "translated". But you don't ascend like Jesus did.

    The Anointed……. Does it matter how you ascend from the bottom floor to the top floor, stairs, elevator, external ladder, etc, as long as you ascend to the top floor

    74x12 wrote…… And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13)

    The Anointed……. And who is it in scripture, that the Jewish church and the Roman church have rejected, who is said to have ascended to the very throne of the Most High, where he was anointed and translated in order that he should never have to experience death?

    74x12 wrote…… Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (John 14:6)

    The Anointed……. The Lord who chose Jesus from among the Israelites and put his words into his mouth before sending his chosen prophet to speak to the people in his name, said through the mouth of his chosen earthly host body; “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

    74x12 wrote…… And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it. (Genesis 28:12)

    The Anointed……. And how did they ascend? Were they caught up, whished away, rode up and down in a fiery chariot or carried up and down in a whirl wind, etc.

    74x12 wrote…… And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven. (Genesis 28:17)

    The Anointed……. He did say that.

    74x12 wrote…… And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. (John 1:51)

    The Anointed……. The Lord through his chosen host body did say that too.

    74x12 wrote…… Jesus is the "Gate of heaven" the angels ascend and descend on. Jesus is the Stone that was anointed. The "pillow" for Jacob's head. Because Jesus gives rest.

    The Anointed……. So you believe that Enoch who was carried to the very throne of the Most High in the creation and anointed as his heir and successor, was reborn on earth as Jesus, do you?

    74x12 wrote…… For who is God save YHVH? or who is a rock save our God? (Psalm 18:31)

    The Anointed……. JHWH is our God, who said to Moses; “I will send them a prophet like you from among their own people; I will put MY WORDS into his mouth and he will tell the people everything that I command him.
    And I will punish anyone who refuses to take heed of MY WORDS that he shall speak in my name.

    Peter confirms that Jesus was that the man Jesus was that prophet, when in reference to Jesus he said in Acts 3: 22; For Moses said; "The Lord your God will send you a prophet, Just as he sent me, and he will be one of your own people, etc."

    Did the people of his day believe that he was the Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The God of our ancestors? No, they did not, for on the day of his triumphant entry into Jerusalem, the people escorting him cried out, "Blessed is he, who comes in the name of the Lord." Verifying that they believed Jesus to be the one that God had promised that he would choose from among the Israelites, and send to the people to speak in his name.

    What a pity you have been deceived by the worthless shepherd that our God ‘The Son of Man,’ raised up in the land after he, who revealed himself through his chosen host body, ‘Jesus’ was rejected by the Jews. See Zechariah 11: 12-17.

    74x12 wrote…… And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? (Luke 20:17)

    The Anointed……. And he, who had filled the man Jesus with his spirit/word, beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

    74x12 wrote…… And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. (1 Samuel 8:7)

    The Anointed……. And the Lord JHWH, who would later choose the man Jesus as his earthly mouth piece, said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

    74x12 wrote…… But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. (John 19:15)

    The Anointed…….. Yes! The Jews not only rejected our God as their king, they also rejected, his chosen heir and successor.

    74x12 wrote…… Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ***, and upon a colt the foal of an ***. (Zechariah 9:9)

    The Anointed……. The man Jesus was chosen to be our King and High priest. Hebrew 5: 5; So too, Christ did not exalt himself to be made a High Priest, but was chosen by He who said to him, “Thou art my son, today I have become your father, or this day I have begotten thee. He has also said in another place, “Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, Priest/King.

    Acts 3: 19; GNB: Repent then and turn to God, [Not Jesus, but to God] so that he will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and he will send Jesus, who is the Messiah He [GOD] has chosen for you.

    74x12 wrote…… Since, Samuel (and even before) the people rejected their King who is God. The nation of Israel won't be restored until they accept their King: God. That is why in that day there will be One YHVH and His name One.

    The Anointed……. And from where did you receive the story that the nation of Israel won't be restored until they accept their King: God.

    Why do you twist and distort the word of God in your attempt to justify your erroneous beliefs?

    74x12 wrote…… Zechariah 14:9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

    The Anointed……. Acts 17: 30-31; “God has overlooked the times when people did not know him, but now he commands them all everywhere to turn away from their evil ways. For he has fixed a day when He shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a MAN He has CHOSEN. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that MAN from death.

    74x12 wrote…… Therefore, the Messiah: the King of Israel must be God.

    The Anointed……. No! He is not God. Repent then and turn to God, [Not Jesus, but to God] so that he will forgive your sins. If you do, times of spiritual strength will come from the Lord, and he will send Jesus, who is the MESSIAH He [GOD] has chosen for you. Jesus, our chosen King and High Priest.

    74x12 wrote …….. The same God they rejected as reigning over them. But He in mercy restores the Kingdom. Making the throne of David united with the throne of heaven. God with us. Immanuel.

    The Anointed……. Don’t you think that it is time for you to stop adding your filthy yeast to the pure and unleavened bread that has come down to us from heaven?
     
  5. DPMartin

    DPMartin Member

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    that's what you say who wasn't there with Jesus, but John who was consdered beloved who was with Jesus through out Jesus' ministry says:

    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
    Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
    Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
    Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
    Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


    of which the other Apostles agree in their writings:

    Jesus being the Word came into the world as sons of men do and fulfilled in the Son of man, God's Image and Likeness in the flesh to the Father's satisfaction (that wasn't in Adam Luk 3:38 "Adam, which was the son of God." ). that God and man theology is merely man's theology. if you notice the bible has no issue with it. the tabernacle or temple destroyed and raised was the flesh that Jesus walked in.

    the Presence of God in the flesh via the Word, of which all of creation knows its creator through God's Word.
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    No one has adequately refuted my point that simply due to the gospelers and Paul referring to Jesus as resurrected, the biblical writers thought of Jesus as God — since only a god could be resurrected, and since there is only one God.
     
  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    All the gospel writers including Paul, Peter and James, knew that God would resurrect the righteous to etenal life as he had done with the man Jesus.

    Luke 20: 36; “Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.” see also Matthew 22: 30.

    LET ME REPEAT MY RESPONSE TO ONE OF YOUR EARLIER POSTS IN THIS THREAD.

    Sojourner wrote........ The very fact that Jesus, in three of the gospels, is definitively resurrected from the dead, is cause enough for us to maintain that the biblical writers saw Jesus as God.

    The Anointed...……In Three Gospels????? The man Jesus was risen from death by God and the four biblical gospel writer knew that.

    Acts 5: 30; The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree.

    Acts 13: 30; But God raised him from the dead: and he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee, etc.

    1st Corinthians 6: 14; And God has both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

    2nd Corinthians 1: 9; But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead.

    2nd Corinthians 4: 14; knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

    If Jesus, [By the resurrection] is God, as you have suggested, then all who are going to be resurrected with him by God, are GOD. "I don't think so."

    Do you really believe that everyone who is to be raised from death to eternal life, is GOD?
     
  8. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

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    That’s not an adequate argument. Repeating it doesn’t make it so.
     
  9. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    It does make it so! It reveals that all the gospel writers including Peter, Paul and James, believed that Jesus was the first of many, who are to be resurrected to eternal life, And if you believe that only God can be resurrected, then you must now believe that all who are to be resurrected are God.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe I must have missed that. Do you have a reference?
     
  11. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe that is not proof but only the statement of an opinion that is not reasonable.
     
  12. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

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    I believe it is mostly likely the idea of a general resurrection stems from the resurrection of Jesus and not something from their past understanding.
     
  13. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures; 4that he was buried; that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures; 5that he appeared to Cephas, then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at once, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7After that he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me.

    But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and had called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not confer with flesh and blood, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned to Damascus Gal 1:15-17

    Paul believed he is a true witness of the 'Risen One' and has received his own mission directly from the Risen One. While Luke's account in Acts contains more embellished details, they agree that Jesus spoke to Paul, called him to the apostolate and made him a true Apostle, a witness of the Resurrection and the task of proclaiming the risen Christ to the Gentiles.
     
  14. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The first male to whom the risen Jesus appeared was Simon the son of Cleophas and not Cephas=Peter.
     
  15. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    There is a belief that he was at Pentecost, and one of the 70 apostles, possibly one of the disciples Jesus met on the road to Damascus etc. What has that to do with Paul?
     
  16. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Because in 1 Corinthians 15: 5; Paul says that the risen Jesus appeared to Cephus first before appearing to the 12. Whereas Luke 24 18: reveals that Cleopas and another who met the risen Jesus on the road to Emmaus, did not recognize him for who he was until they saw the Manner in which he broke the bread.

    They then returned to Jerusalem, where the eleven disciples were cowering in a darkened room, Simon Peter called Cephus was there as was Simon the Patriot, the only one missing that night was Thomas Didymus Jude, the half brother to Jesus who was called 'The Twin." I don't believe he was an actual twin, but simply held a striking resemblance to one with who he shared a common father, as will be revealed, if asked.

    Opening the door for Cleopas, he said to the eleven, He has risen, He appeared to Simon, which was not Simon Peter, nor Simon the Patriot, but Simon the son of Cleopas who was the husband of Mary the mother of Jesus.

    It was then that an image of one who they believed was Jesus entered the room.
     
    #56 The Anointed, Sep 8, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
  17. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    There were those present who were not the Apostles, Paul refers to The Apostles.
     
  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    And who of the eleven in the room that evening, when Cleopas reported to them that he had risen, was not an Apostle? Remembering that Thomas Didymus Jude, the half brother and apostle of Jesus, was not present that first evening.

    The only others in the room that night were the two, who had returned from Emmaus. RSV Luke 24 33-35; And they arose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem; and they found the eleven together with them, who said; "The Lord has risen, he appeared to Simon!

    The others who were with the eleven were Simon the son of Cleopas, and his father who said; "He has risen, he appeared to Simon."

    It was not to Simon Peter/Cephas that the risen Christ first appeared, but Simon the half brother to Jesus, who succeeded to the Episcopal throne of the church of Jesus, after the death of James, who was born of the same womb as his brother Jesus and was the son of Alpheaus, who is also called Cleopas, the carpenter who was the husband of Mary.
     
    #58 The Anointed, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2018
  19. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Paul states he handed on what was handed down to him. Paul wrote maybe 30 years before Luke, during the life of the Apostles.
     
  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    It is written that Luke was a close companion of Paul and had accompanied him on his journeys. It's even possible that Luke provided medical assistance to Paul when he had been beaten, stoned or nearly drowned while preaching in the Western Roman Empire.

    Nevertheless Paul was either wrong when he said that Jesus was seen first by Simon Peter/Cephas and then the twelve, Or perhaps the original said that he first appeared to Simon, and the translator erroneously interpreted that Simon to be Simon Peter/Cephas and not Simon the son of Cleopas..
     
    #60 The Anointed, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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