The Genesis Fraud Part 1

[connermt]

*Yawn*

Another anti-text troll. Great. Yet one more posting of a ranting screed about the Bible by someone who apparently ignores the fact that not all the text was meant to be taken literally, that the point of the text is not camels or nomenclature of places or whatnot; and, of course, ignores the fact that it is Jewish text, written by Jews, for Jews, in the Jewish language, to be interpreted using Jewish methods of exegesis.

To say nothing of the various and unsurprising errors concerning Hebrew language and nomenclature, and the presentation of matters still in historical or archaeological dispute as absolute facts....

Wake me when something new or interesting happens.

Where does it say that it's not suppose to be taken literally?
Many people do take it - all of it - quite literally.

 

[fallingblood]

Where does it say that it's not suppose to be taken literally?
Many people do take it - all of it - quite literally.

That is where understanding the genre and historical context comes into play.

 

[connermt]

That is where understanding the genre and historical context comes into play.

So, assuming that you don't take the bible literally, you're saying your understanding is correct while those that take it literally are wrong?
If so, then one could also, honestly, say that people reading and adhering to the bible in, oh let's say, 1512-ish, were wrong in their understanding as well, since much more historical context was found/understood since then?
Going further, in 250 years, those people would say your understanding was wrong, since they would have likely discovered more historical evidence since now.
Correct?
And note: you didn't indicate there is a rule anywhere saying it shouldn't be read literally.

 

[fallingblood]

So, assuming that you don't take the bible literally, you're saying your understanding is correct while those that take it literally are wrong?
If so, then one could also, honestly, say that people reading and adhering to the bible in, oh let's say, 1512-ish, were wrong in their understanding as well, since much more historical context was found/understood since then?
Going further, in 250 years, those people would say your understanding was wrong, since they would have likely discovered more historical evidence since now.
Correct?
And note: you didn't indicate there is a rule anywhere saying it shouldn't be read literally.

I'm not going to play this little game. We can look at the genre, and the historical context, and generally know if it was meant to be literal or not.

Is there a rule? Not really. One just has to understand the genre, and historical context.

 

[connermt]

I'm not going to play this little game. We can look at the genre, and the historical context, and generally know if it was meant to be literal or not.

Is there a rule? Not really. One just has to understand the genre, and historical context.

Looking at context and you "know"? That's sad that you actually believe that.

If a legitimate question you can't answer is a game to you, I understand why you're "not playing".
The question still stands to anyone who has the ability to answer it.

 

[Levite]

Where does it say that it's not suppose to be taken literally?
Many people do take it - all of it - quite literally.

Well, I can't speak for what Christians do with the Bible, since they took it for their own, and do not use it as we use it.

But we Jews say that it's not all supposed to be taken literally because so we are taught by the Rabbis of the Talmud as part of the Oral Torah. Written Torah was never supposed to be read or interpreted without the lens of the Oral Torah, because the text has so many potential meanings, and there are so many places where one might erroneously take literally what is not intended to be taken literally.

Even in the extreme ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, they do not read Written Torah literally, but in light of their understanding of the Oral Torah.

Reading non-literally, using as a guide the teaching of the Oral Torah is how we understand the text was intended to be read and used. Anything else is just an abuse or theft of Jewish text.

 

[fallingblood]

Looking at context and you "know"? That's sad that you actually believe that.

If a legitimate question you can't answer is a game to you, I understand why you're "not playing".
The question still stands to anyone who has the ability to answer it.

Again, genre is key. If you know the genre, you can see whether or not it was meant to be general or not.

Looking at the historical context, the genre, and general context, you can know. However, you have to actually take the time to try to learn about this.

 

[outhouse]

Any thoughts?

there is no fraud

most of what you state is common knowledge




If you want to dismiss the christian literal reading of the text, there are better ways to do it


Its hebrews text and ill take hebrews advise on how to read it is one.

The things stated inside are scientifically impossible is another.

provide links to study on the subject is another way, like this

The Legends of Genesis: V. Jahvist, Elohist, Jehovist, the Later Collections

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

THis is my work!

What a waste. I'm sorry ...

 

[michaelsherlock]

What a waste. I'm sorry ...

How so?

 

[Quagmire]

How so?

I just read through this thread and it looks like all you're objections have been addressed, and that what you've presented in the OP doesn't add up to the conclusions you're coming to:

It appears that the accounts of Abraham’s birth and travels were created no earlier than the 6th century B.C.E, which seems to indicate that the writer was either in Babylon during the exile or had already returned to Israel. Either way, one thing is almost certain, and that is that the authors of the Hebrew Scriptures had ample opportunity to copy and re-script the mythologies of the ancient Babylonians to suit their own social and theological needs.

 

[Trimijopulos]

The question still stands to anyone who has the ability to answer it.

Levite answered it for you: You need the Oral Torah in order to understand the Written Torah!
Why so?
Because some stories there are “repugnant to both reason and common sense.” The authors of the stories, however, were neither lunatics nor idiots and therefore something is going on.
To know what is going on and what is it that is hidden and only revealed by those holding the secrets of the Oral Torah, you have to study texts older than the Torah.
I gave an example below:

The gods were initially judging people alive! That is what the story of the Sodom and Gomorra narrates and it can be reasonably explained and rationally understood up to its dramatic end with the incident of the incest. No allegories! Only things, historical realities, that cannot be told.

Read the Egyptian funerary texts if you wish to learn about the judgment of the living.

 

[michaelsherlock]

I just read through this thread and it looks like all you're objections have been addressed, and that what you've presented in the OP doesn't add up to the conclusions you're coming to:

Addressed to whose satisfaction? prof. of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University Ze'ev Herzog, Prof. Israel Finkelstein, Joseph Silberman, whose?

 

[michaelsherlock]

Where does it say that it's not suppose to be taken literally?
Many people do take it - all of it - quite literally.

"The damage to the human mind that reads the bible as a reliable book is beyond repair"
Lemuel K. Washburn

 

[cablescavenger]

According to Christian tradition the book of Genesis was written somewhere between 1513-1440BCE, at around the time of the Israelite’s alleged exodus from Egypt. However, according to the overwhelming amount of archeological, textual and extra-biblical evidence, the book of Genesis was more than likely written some time during the 6th to the 5th centuries B.C.E....

.....Any thoughts?

I had come to similar conclusions myself.

 

[arcanum]

Well, I can't speak for what Christians do with the Bible, since they took it for their own, and do not use it as we use it.

But we Jews say that it's not all supposed to be taken literally because so we are taught by the Rabbis of the Talmud as part of the Oral Torah. Written Torah was never supposed to be read or interpreted without the lens of the Oral Torah, because the text has so many potential meanings, and there are so many places where one might erroneously take literally what is not intended to be taken literally.

Even in the extreme ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, they do not read Written Torah literally, but in light of their understanding of the Oral Torah.

Reading non-literally, using as a guide the teaching of the Oral Torah is how we understand the text was intended to be read and used. Anything else is just an abuse or theft of Jewish text.

Interesting, ok do feel inclined to illuminate some of us non jews on how the rabbi's interpreted the genesis account? What light does the the oral torah shed on the creation story?

 

[Trimijopulos]

Interesting, ok do feel inclined to illuminate some of us non jews on how the rabbi's interpreted the genesis account? What light does the the oral torah shed on the creation story?

There are hundreds of creation stories.
Creation stories are produced by philosophers and theologians and they are plain fairy tales.
The Torah, and the OT in general, apart from funny philosophical ideas contains the traditions of the Jewish people interpreted and presented as the history of the Jewish people. That is the part that Oral Torah will bother to explain. There is nothing to explain when it comes to philosophical or theological fantasies.

What is the creation story of the culture you were born into?
What light can be shed on that one?
So, Why is the Jewish one so important?

 

[arcanum]

There are hundreds of creation stories.
Creation stories are produced by philosophers and theologians and they are plain fairy tales.
The Torah, and the OT in general, apart from funny philosophical ideas contains the traditions of the Jewish people interpreted and presented as the history of the Jewish people. That is the part that Oral Torah will bother to explain. There is nothing to explain when it comes to philosophical or theological fantasies.

What is the creation story of the culture you were born into?
What light can be shed on that one?
So, Why is the Jewish one so important?

Well for one this particular creation story which we in the west have inherited was written by jews and I was curious as to what this oral torah's interpretation of it was.

 

[Levite]

Interesting, ok do feel inclined to illuminate some of us non jews on how the rabbi's interpreted the genesis account? What light does the the oral torah shed on the creation story?

Well, there are many ways that our tradition has understood the stories, depending on the context of what is being taught.

The general trend of Rabbinic thought on Genesis has been that the accuracy of the details is less important than the lesson, which is that God is the creator of the universe.

I personally stand with those Jewish authorities who have said that the entire account of creation is allegorical, and not literal at all. That the lessons of God's creatorship, the human condition, life and death, etc., are all being taught in Genesis using metaphor and the language of story, since that is what the earliest Israelites would best have been able to understand and learn from.

 

[connermt]

Well, I can't speak for what Christians do with the Bible, since they took it for their own, and do not use it as we use it.

But we Jews say that it's not all supposed to be taken literally because so we are taught by the Rabbis of the Talmud as part of the Oral Torah. Written Torah was never supposed to be read or interpreted without the lens of the Oral Torah, because the text has so many potential meanings, and there are so many places where one might erroneously take literally what is not intended to be taken literally.

Even in the extreme ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, they do not read Written Torah literally, but in light of their understanding of the Oral Torah.

Reading non-literally, using as a guide the teaching of the Oral Torah is how we understand the text was intended to be read and used. Anything else is just an abuse or theft of Jewish text.

Seems to make sense