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The Four Horsemen

Discussion in 'Eschatology DIR' started by SpentaMaynu, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    In ' righteous warfare ' - Revelation 19:11 - there would be No one innocent harmed.
    In men's wars often innocent women and children are in harm's way.
    Unlike human warfare, Jesus judges by one's heart - Isaiah 11:3-4
     
  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Excellent assessment based on the evidence; would expand a bit on them....
    • The white horse is our white Christian version of jesus, which 'did go forth to conquer'.....When Yeshua wasn't white.
    • The American Indian red skins, have their 'blood shed on the land'.
    • The black skins, have been treated unfairly, with 'unbalanced scales'. Both conquered by the white horse.
    • The last horse, is pestilence and famine due to animals....Personally think this is because of the production of cattle; which is one of the main things killing the planet, and the Messianic age is vegan.
    • :innocent:
     
    #22 wizanda, Oct 18, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2015
  3. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    It would appear that animals attacks are a growing factor in these last days of badness on earth - Revelation 6:8 B

    However, could it be the bad ' way the production ' of cattle today is being handled the bad factor ?

    Please notice the ' in that day ' ( the coming 1,000 year day ) mentioned at Isaiah 30:23 B that livestock is mentioned.
    In that millennial day pasture animals will have large pastures in which to roam.
    What would be the point of having cattle or livestock if it were not for use during Jesus' millennium-long day of governing over earth ?
     
  4. s13ep

    s13ep 42

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    There are many abstruse harmonics of 4. I'm a 4ist.
     
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  5. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    This seems to be before the destruction; the end line of the chapter is the fire coming to cleanse it all.

    The amazing point you made tho, is that it is saying within Isaiah, that we're feeding the cattle grain, and covering the earth in this process; this is exactly what is causing the most global warming, pollution, resources, and cost to the environment. o_O
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, Jesus as the rider of the white horse in Revelation chapter 6 will cleanse the earth. By the sword-like words from Jesus' mouth will the wicked be destroyed - Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-15; Revelation 11:18 B; Isaiah 11:3-4; Psalms 92:7

    Jesus has already conquered in that Satan is Not in heaven - Revelation 12:12 - and Jesus will complete his conquest when the great crowd of people come through the coming great tribulation time of Revelation 7:14; Revelation 7:9-10

    As for the cattle, ' in that day ' ( Jesus' millennial-long day, Proverbs 4:18 ) the livestock will be in large pastures, so No need for grain but just the natural vegetation found in pasture grounds. - Isaiah 30:23

    Anyone who would want to bring ruin to earth will be brought to their final ruination - Revelation 11:18 B; Psalms 92:7
     
  7. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    Crossed swords are used by many Islamic groups as a symbol of conquest.

    And I saw and, behold a white horse; and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him, and he went forth conquering, and to conquer."

    The rider has no arrows and we shouldn't assume that he does.
     
  8. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    Thank you.

    And though I go to different churches, I still call myself a Catholic.
     
  9. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    I would have to disagree about Jesus being on the white horse because...

    1. Christ is the ONE opening the seals, why would he be one of the riders?

    2. Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow. A bow is 'usually' associated with evil.

    3. Christ rides a white horse and wears a diadem. This rider of Rev. 6:2 wears a 'stephanos.'

    4. Why would Christ be the first rider, and the other three are bad guys with bad things that follow? We've always depicted the four as, 'riding together' considering them to be confederate.

    5. Jesus existed in the flesh BEFORE Rev. 6:2 was written. ANY theory that claims these seals opened in the first century, 'before' the prophecies were written', actually makes John a false prophet. A prophet CANNOT prophesy about something already in existence. Jesus had already 'conquered' the sins of the world prior to John's Apocalypse.
     
  10. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    You have very interesting questions ^above ^.

    Sure Christ opens, but what does gospel writer John see ? What John sees is what John records for us.

    The ' conquest ' in Revelation is Not about a first-century conquest - Revelation 1:10 - is set for our day or time frame.
    Matthew 25:31-32 ' time of separation' is for our day.

    Besides the stephanos at Revelation 6:2 also see at Revelation 14:14 in connection to the Lamb.

    Was Jehu's bow associated with evil at 2 Kings 9:24 ?_______
    What would be the purpose of using a bow unless one was going to shoot arrows with it ?

    Jesus has yet to conquer what we will see on earth during his millennium-long day of governing over earth - Revelation 22:2
    Mankind on earth will see the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' for the healing of earth's nations.
    Jesus has yet to fulfill God's promise to Abraham - Genesis 12:3; Genesis 22:18 - the promise that all earth's nations will be blessed. Blessed with the benefits of healing or curing of earth's nations. - Isaiah 33:24. See also Isaiah chapter 35
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Good point ^above ^ that we should Not assume.
    Psalms 45:3-5; Psalms 45:6-7 is in connection to Christ and righteous warfare. His arrows are sharp.
    Since No bow is mentioned there is there a need to think he just has arrows without a bow ?
    Jesus, as that mounted warrior, is the same at Revelation 19:11 in connection to righteous warfare.
    Jesus as a lover of righteousness and a hater of wickedness will eliminate wickedness on earth - Revelation 19:14-15; Revelation 22:2
    ALL the wicked will be annihilated - Psalms 92:7
     
  12. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    The only time we can assume the rider has arrows is if it's implied that he is going hunting or into battle.

    The symbolism of the bow could well indicate the people associated with opening the first seal. And that would be the descendents of Esau and Ishmael. The bow isn't a literal one but symbolic of something. It's also associated with evil several places in the OT. Some interpreters find the 'sword' of the second seal confusing because they know a literal sword is implied.

    The first seal is symbolic of 'holy war' and bin Laden is the rider.

    Saddam is the second seal.

    ISIS is the third seal. We know how to verify its passing.

    A seal isn't something that opens slowly or over time. Neither can it be something or someone that existed prior to when it was prophesied as this would make any prophet a false prophet. Seals are designed for our benefit so that we as Christians can recognize the season of their passing and opening events of the last days. To say that a seal opened in the first century, or that it has a progressive opening over centuries, actually defeats the purpose of them even being called a seal.

    "Seals are the "opening events" to a greater course of coming prophecy." They denote 'secrecy and authenticity.'
    They're like a "slow rising curtain," as my friend Dennis would say. The Four Horsemen are 4 significant people, and four significant events and conditions that open fairly quickly, showing us the time we live in, is the time approaching the tribulation, the man of sin, and return of Christ.

    The truth is. We should recognize these seals as they open and as they pass. They are "authenticated and no longer a secret" when we see an event pass that resembles well what is written. Keep in mind that the seals pass in pairs or in quick succession. So the third and fourth seal will pass one after another.

    Isa 21:6-9
    For thus the Lord says to me, "Go, station the lookout, let him report what he sees.
    7 "When he sees riders, horsemen in pairs, A train of donkeys, a train of camels, Let him pay close attention, very close attention."
    8 Then the lookout called, "O Lord, I stand continually by day on the watchtower, And I am stationed every night at my guard post.
    9 "Now behold, here comes a troop of riders, horsemen in pairs." And one said, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon; And all the images of her gods are shattered on the ground."

    This is how the third seal will be authenticated.

    Abu Bkr Al'Baghdadi is probably the rider of the black horse.

    ISIS has taken a big financial hit since they lost some control of the oil fields and refineries. Right now, ISIL the Leviathan, pays its followers a good wage. Fighters even get a $1,500 bonus for their honeymoon if they get a wife. They are known for having money in their pockets everywhere they go. Their salaries range from $300 to $2,000 a month. This will soon end, and fulfill the conditions depicted in the third seal.

    In other words, what verifies the third seal in when ISIS fighters get no more salary other than their daily ration of food as their wage. Right now, they have somewhat of an aggressive pay scale. This condition verifies its fulfillment. As far as the third seal goes, Islamic prophecy says in the end, two will rise, one bearing a black and the other white flag. (The white flag may be the king of the south or Islamic Caliphate that will form in and around the Arabian Peninsula and Northern Africa).

    ISIS bears a black flag and has taken control of large cities with millions of people as well as large areas of land. The word 'BALANCES' resembles quite well what ISIS is all about.

    Think about ISIS for a moment and look...
    The color black is symbolic of being "dirty or bad."

    Black also symbolizes mourning, physical and spiritual famine, evil, the opposite of good, and everything that opposes God. Does this resemble what we see in ISIS and radical ISLAM?

    In Vine's expository dictionary, balances is the Greek word, '' zugos.'' This is what he say's and seriously consider the methods and goals of ISIL and radical Islam. Emphasis is mine...

    (1)
    "A yoke, also has the meaning of a pair of scales. Serving to couple two things together, is used (metaphorically,
    (a) of submission to authority, Matt.11 ; 29, 30, (b) of bondage Acts 15 :10 and Gal.5 ; 1 (c) of bondservice to masters,
    1 Timothy 6 : 1 and (2) to denote a balance. Rev 6: 5."

     
    #32 kaoticprofit, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    The rider has arrows for his bow to do battle like the rider of Psalms 45:3-5 who has: sharp arrows.
    Jesus as the righteous warrior of Revelation 19:11 does battle - Revelation 19:14-16; Revelation 19:21

    ALL religion which plays false with God will be brought to ruin.
    The United Nations already sees a hauntingly dangerous religious climate brewing in today's world.
    Terrorism has put religion on the UN's radar, so to speak.
    Plus, a bad economy makes the wealth the religions have amassed look attractive and easy for the taking.
    In the past when people lost their faith in God, then God used the political/military as His arm of the Law.
    In Exekiel's day it was the Babylonian forces, and in the year 70 God used the Roman armies against apostate Jerusalem.
    So, it should Not surprise anyone that God will once again use the political/military realm, so with backing the UN can be strengthened to become God's modern-day arm of the Law to go up against those who have run afoul and are playing false to God and His Word.
     
  14. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    Arrows aren't mentioned in the text and we shouldn't assume they are. If Esau is said to take his bow hunting, then arrows are indirectly implied. If Ishmael is said to take his bow into battle, then we can assume they are implied. This prophecy doesn't mean that a white horse rider is out militarily conquering with a bow and arrows. John wrote what he SAW. If the rider had arrows, he would have seen them and documented it.

    The bow is used of God's judgment and also figurative of a counterfeit truth. A bow can signify a doctrine of truth, or a doctrine of falsity.

    The bow also denotes falsehood and deceit. (Ps. 64:3, 4; Hos. 7:16; Jer. 9:3).

    Jeremiah 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.

    Hosea 7:16 They return, but not to the most High: they are like a deceitful bow: their princes shall fall by the sword for the rage of their tongue: this shall be their derision in the land of Egypt.
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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  16. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    Where do you see arrows mentioned in Revelation 19?

    Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

    Revelation 19:14-15 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    For those of you who believe the rider of the white horse in Revelation 6:2 is Christ...again I ask...

    1. Christ is the ONE opening the seals, why would he be one of the riders?

    2. Christ or the gospel is never associated with a bow. A bow is 'usually' associated with evil.

    3. Christ rides a white horse and wears a diadem. This rider of Rev. 6:2 wears a 'stephanos.'

    4. Why would Christ be the first rider and the prelude to the others when the other three are bad guys with all bad things that follow? We've always depicted the four as, 'riding together' considering them to be confederate. To say this rider is Christ is to say that he brings upon the earth the evils of the red, black, and pale horses.

    5. ANY theory that claims these seals opened in the first century (ex. Christ the rider of the white horse), 'before' the prophecies were written', actually makes John a false prophet. I know most people disagree with me but it's the truth!
    How do you come up with the UN? Where is that found in the bible?
     
    #36 kaoticprofit, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Thank you for your ^ above ^ post, and yes, it is Revelation 6:2 KJV that places the ' bow ' in Christ's hands ( bow and arrow in those days can symbolize warfare )
    Gospel writer John also penned Revelation. - Revelation 1:1 - penned at the very end of the 1st century, so Revelation does Not apply to the 1st century.
    In Jesus' case it's righteous warfare - Revelation 19:11 B, Jesus has a crown ( stephanos ) a ' bow and crown ' - KJV Revelation 6:2.
    A bow would Not be of much use without arrows - Psalms 45:5
    The white horse symbolizes warfare - Psalms 20:7; Proverbs 21:31; Isaiah 31:1 - In Jesus' case warfare that is clean, righteous, holy in God's eyes. No one innocent harmed.
    From the Greek the word is: ' crown ' at Rev. 6:2

    Since the rider wears a ' crown ' in the Lord's Day - Revelation 1:10 - that ' crown ' represents Jesus and those with him - Daniel 7:13-14,27; Luke 1:31-33; Revelation 4:4,10 Revelation 14:14; Psalms 2:6-8. So, opening the 1st seal shows or reveals how Jesus he himself as ' crowned King ' of God's Kingdom rides forth in righteous warfare and victory.
    Jesus who rides in splended success - Psalms 45:4-7 - Jesus, as the mounted warrior, loves righteousness and hates wickedness - Psalms 45:7
    The reason for our crowned king Jesus to ride forth in the face of war is because his kingship is established in the face of bitter opposition - Revelation 12:12.
    Major warfare first broke out in heaven - Revelation 12:7-9; Revelation 12:10-12 - So, Jesus as King has already conquered in the sense that Satan was cast out of heaven.
    It is just the further conquests - Revelation 7:14 - that his ride continues along with the rest until the whole conquest is completed by Jesus.

    The UN is the 8th king of Revelation 17:11. The League of Nations - Revelation 17:8 - is No more.
     
    #37 URAVIP2ME, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  18. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    A bow by itself doesn't symbolize warfare. I don't think there's one place where it does. And to assume the rider has arrows is adding to the passage. It would be unusual for this bow to be literal since there are no arrows mentioned. It's not that difficult to to distinguish the figurative from the literal. Failing to see this difference results in error. The bow is a symbolic item and very likely why arrows aren't mentioned. A literal weapon would have been indicated here IF it was said that the rider was going hunting or into battle. Being there are no arrows creates a contradiction if this is interpreted literally, and many commentators don't know what to think about the fact that arrows aren't mentioned. The passage does not imply the rider has arrows any more than imply he has a quiver or a back pack! And the passage doesn't imply who or what he was out "conquering."

    The bow is symbolic of "evil conquest and designs," and a "struggle "against much travail in order to obtain a goal."
    Remember that jihad is "a struggle" and Islam's goal is world domination.
    The bow is also used of God's judgment and also figurative of a counterfeit truth. A bow can signify a doctrine of truth, or a doctrine of falsity. This link written in the 17th century is very informative.
    The bow also denotes falsehood and deceit. (Ps. 64:3, 4; Hos. 7:16; Jer. 9:3).

    Jeremiah 9:3 And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
    Hosea 7:16 They return, but not to the most High: they are like a deceitful bow: their princes shall fall by the sword for the rage of their tongue: this shall be their derision in the land of Egypt.
    BUT! Christ is a first century character! And he's the one opening the seals and doesn't return until much later in the book. It makes no sense that he would also be one of the riders since everything that follows is evil. These riders are confederate and it makes no sense that Christ would be allied with the rest of the riders.
    How can you say Revelation 6:2 is 'righteous warfare' when no kind of war is implied in verse 2, AND NOTHING RIGHTEOUS FOLLOWS! You are wrong saying that Christ wears a 'stephanos' in Revelation 19:11-12! He wears a DIADEM! Take a look...

    https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/rev/19/11/ss1/s_1186011
    https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G1238&t=KJV
    If it were a literal bow that would likely be true. But the bow in Rev. 6:2 IS FIGURATIVE.
    The white horse symbolizes warfare??? Psalm 20:7 Proverbs 21:31, or Isaiah 31:1 doesn't mention a WHITE horse. And even if there was a white horse mentioned, it wouldn't mean the white horse of Rev. 6:2 also symbolizes warfare. Besides that! Psalm 20:7 isn't about warfare!

    Psalms 20:7 Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
    Proverbs 21:31 The horse is prepared against the day of battle: but safety is of the LORD.
    Isaiah 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!
    There are no crowns mentioned in Revelation 1:10, and the rest has nothing to do with the correct understanding of Revelation 6:2. It has nothing to do with the first seal.

    Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    Another fabricated assumption.
     
  19. kaoticprofit

    kaoticprofit Active Member

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    It's easy to distinguish the literal from figurative in most passages unrelated to prophecy, but in prophecy, it's quite a different story. One interesting note is that prophecy often has words that are used only once or twice in the bible, and usually only in verses of end-time prophecy, so looking at the lexicons is crucial to understanding them.

    To distinguish whether something is figurative or literal in prophecy we have to pay attention to detail and look at this logically. Something figurative is more like a figure of speech, and something symbolic is more like a picture acting as a symbol... figurative of something. The bow is symbolic of something. It can't be look upon as literal for several reasons, like the lack of ammunition, and there's a mountain of evidence against the rider being Christ.

    If John would have seen arrows he would have recognized them and documented it it. There's some differences of opinion as to which John wrote Revelation, but it's likely that he knew Jesus and would have recognized him too. That too would be a significant difference in the vision, enough that he would have documented the rider as being Christ too. Christ being the one opening the seals has a lot going against it.

    1. A bow is never used symbolically as a symbol for war.(not that I know of)
    2. Christ is never associated with having a bow, only having a sharp two edged sword.
    3. Christ as the rider just doesn't fit in well with the other three all being bad and evil. There's no continuity.
    4. It just doesn't add up that Christ would be opening these seals and be the rider of the opening seal.
    5. Christ wears a diadem, and this rider wears a stephanos.

    That's all the evidence I need.
     
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  20. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    1. ' bow ' symbol of war -> Please note Genesis 48:22 B; 2 Chronicles 26:14-15; Jeremiah 46:8-9B; 2 Kings 9:22-24; besides Revelation 6:2
    2. Christ does Not need a bow because the ' words from Jesus' mouth ' will destroy the wicked - Isaiah 11:3-4; Isaiah 49:2; Revelation 19:11; Revelation 19:14-15 ( white horses )
    3. Jesus has No diadems on his crown because it is the start or the beginning of his ride. Jesus is a newly crowned king going forth to conquer - Revelation 12:7-9; Revelation 12:10-12
    4. First Jesus acknowledges the whole world lies in Satan's power - 1 John 5:19 - and Jesus rides in a conquest of faith for the sheep of Matthew 25:31-33
    5. Christ now wears MANY diadems jewels on his crown ( diadems crown ) - Revelation 19:11-12 A; Revelation 2:26-27- for Jesus now being a Warrior-King to now completing his conquest.

    P.S. At Revelation 13:1 the symbolic beast has 10 diadems on his crown. Ten is Not MANY as Jesus has because Jesus' rulership is unmatched as King of Kings.
     
    #40 URAVIP2ME, Jan 13, 2016
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