"As a philosophy, secularism seeks to interpret life on principles taken solely from the material world, without recourse to religion."
Secularism - Wikipedia
Are you a theist or an atheist then?
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The Folly of Atheism
- Thread starter usfan
- Start date
Secularism - Wikipedia
Are you a theist or an atheist then?
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
That's nice for you. Any chance of returning to your point (or lack thereof)?
There was no point other than what i stated. You seem to be reaching for something, not sure why or what that this. You mind telling me?
I am a secularist.
Either you believe god(s) exist or you do not. You are either a theist or an atheist. Which one is it?
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Which is exactly why I can't label myself a materialist - far to dogmatic for my taste.
I have no problem with the label if it is nuanced a bit. Like perhaps a "tentative materialist" or "pragmatic materialist" or "materialist for practical purposes". Whatever notes that I don't make the positive claim that the physical IS all that exists - but rather would settle for something like "the physical is the only thing we can presently confirm to exist".
But here's the ironic part....
What you just identified as the flaw in materialistic atheism... the exact same flaw exists in theists. Theists believe (= accept as true / accurate) that things beyond the physical exist AND that they interact with the physical world to at least some extent. And in the vast majority of religions, these beliefs ARE dogma's and central doctrines that MUST be believed. Denying these, or in some cases only even just questioning them, are lines of thinking that are labeled "herecy" and "blasphemy".
And to be honest with you.... i'ld think you'ld have a very hard time finding "materialistic atheists" who, when properly questioned, would actually be the kind of dogmatic materialists that you are claiming they are...
I think that the vast majority of them, would think more along the lines as I described: tentative materialists who don't really make the positive claim that the physical IS the only thing that exists, but rather that it is the only thing we can presently confirm to exist.
But the same can not at all be said about your average theist, in my experience.
Or it can not be confirmed to exist.
Again, while the difference might be subtle... it is very real and very meaningful. Especially in context of what you are trying to say here.
There is no such consensus at all. What people merely believe is of no concern to what is actually true. Furthermore, if we actually put the beliefs of various theists side by side, then I don't think you can really claim them all in your camp, as the majority of humans will have very very different beliefs about that then yours, to the point of their beliefs being in contradiction with yours.
I don't know. Ask a theist. ;-)
Well, it's not like we have a choice.... we don't really have any non-human senses that we can appeal to to provide us with conclusions about reality.......
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
What you said was: "As long as Atheist believe we are simply here by chance and that "We are all just complicated arrangements of atoms and subatomic particles" nothing they say can ever be taken serious or given any credence." - which is either a non-sequitur or a baseless assertion (depending on whether you thought the latter statement followed from the former or not) that makes even less sense in the light of what you've said subsequently than it did to start with.
The fact that you needed Wikipedia to tell you what a secularist is as you type away on RF, only proves you have no idea what your are talking about. And you constantly repeating the same questions only further proves you have no business asking that question in the first place
It is what it is, you can either prove to me what i said is wrong or you can move on. My statement is very clear and to the point, i wont bother going in to details about it.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Like I said it was either a non-sequitur or a baseless assertion, if you aren't going to clarify or back it up, that's fine.
...and totally absurd.
Suit yourself.
Thank you
However, i will give you a chance, if you want, to explain why its "totally absurd". Otherwise, have a good day.
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Looks like you're the one who doesn't know what a secularist is....
I already did explain - once again: it was either a non-sequitur because your second statement didn't follow, or, if it wasn't intended to follow, it was just an unsupported assertion. Of course, a subset of an unsupported assertion would just be a statement of blind, unthinking prejudice. Who can say (unless you want to)?
But, whatever, if you can't be bothered to articulate your reasoning (if you have any) that's fine.
I guess my claim is just as baseless as the claim atheists make
ratiocinator
Lightly seared on the reality grill.
The only claim that all atheists make is that they don't have a belief in any gods - since it's a claim about what they believe, or rather what they don't believe, I don't see how it can be baseless.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I'm pretty sure he knows what a secularist is and was just quoting wikipedia to make it independent from his personal opinion...
The fact that you need to resort to these kinds of "arguments", is pretty pathetic dude.
You could easily end it by typing 5 to 6 letters, arranged as either "theist" or "atheist".
Your post uses ~275 characters. With the energy spend on that post, you could have answered the question more then 50 times.
Just saying. ;-)
why you made, bruh? I am a secularist. Neither atheist not theist. Seems you Atheists are always in such a hurry to put someone in a box and label because it simply makes things easier for you. you want a label so you know how to attack instead of getting to know the person. shame.
I'm pretty sure he knows what a secularist is and was just quoting wikipedia to make it independent from his personal opinion...
The fact that you need to resort to these kinds of "arguments", is pretty pathetic dude.
You could easily end it by typing 5 to 6 letters, arranged as either "theist" or "atheist".
Your post uses ~275 characters. With the energy spend on that post, you could have answered the question more then 50 times.
Just saying. ;-)
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Atheism is label that is defined by what someone does not believe.
What possible claim could be associated with that?
That's what you all say but, you all (atheists) are about 99% the exact same, just like theists are.
Keep telling yourself that, buddy.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
Assuming you mean "mad", I'm not mad.
I was just pointing out the absurdity of the conversation.
That's not what secularism is.
I actually don't care about labels at all.
He's just asking you about your beliefs, which seems a perfectly sensible thing to do in a discussion as it helps understand where people are coming from and if there are any unstated premises which are necessarily part of their belief system etc.
You're actually the one who's making it about labels. And you're not even using them correctly...