The Folly of Atheism

[Trailblazer]

A new survey shows that 51 per cent of people in the world believe in God." Can you then figure out how many don't?
Most people believe in God, international poll finds

That percentage is much too low. My percentage of 93% is too high, but I think that the correct percentage lies somewhere in between the two.

 

[Trailblazer]

In that case, your God is completely unfalsifiable because you can literally ascribe any state of affairs to his doing. So there's no way to tell his existence apart from his non-existence. Which makes theism patently illogical, friend.

That is true, God is completely unfalsifiable, and there's no way to tell his existence apart from his non-existence, but that does not make theism patently illogical because there are reasons to believe God exists, even though that can never be proven.

And if that method would exist in a godless universe, then again, it's not useful for determining whether God is actually there or people are just claiming so.

The fact that that method (God choosing to allow us to gain access) would exist in a godless universe is a red herring, since it could also exist in a universe where God exists.

Lol, I understand it perfectly Trail. That's what I said from the very beginning of this conversation. It's what I literally just got through re-explaining to you in my last post. You kept invoking God's nature or him being spirit or too lofty or whatever other excuses, as though it just has to be that way. My entire point to you this whole time is that that's all nonsense - things are the way they are because he chose it to be that way. Which means he could choose another way, if he wanted. But he doesn't. So if he communicates in a way that's unconvincing to millions, no, billions of people, that's 100% his fault.

No, wrong on two counts. God is communicating in a way that has garnered the belief of most people in the world, since only about 7% of the world population is positive atheists or positive agnostics.

Secondly, the blame for not recognizing the Messengers God sends lies squarely on the humans who do not recognize them because we all have free will. God cannot be to blame for anything because God cannot make mistakes since God is Infallible. That is one way we know that whatever method God uses to communicate cannot be wrong, for accomplishing God’s purposes. Since God is omniscient, God knows that not everyone will recognize His Messengers and become a believer, so obviously it is not God’s goal to garner 100% belief.

I don't "call the shots." I know what omnipotence means and I know what good communication is and what crappy communication is. Any kid who's played telephone can figure this out. Which means, since he's omnipotent, he could communicate better than he does. But he doesn't. So for the 20th time, he chooses an inferior, unconvincing, crappy form of communication.

That is exactly what you are trying to do, call the shots for God. It is amazing that you cannot understand that.

What you are really saying is that since God is omnipotent, God could communicate the way I want Him to, because the way God communicates is not good enough for me. It is crappy for you but it is not crappy for most people since most people accept Messengers of God. So why should God change His Method just for you and a few other atheists who don’t like Messengers? Notably, many/most of these atheists do not even care about believing in God, as they have settled into non-belief and they are happy. So why should God communicate to them? He would just be bothering them, and God does not bother people. God allows people to make their own choices.

Too large a rabbit trail for here it seems. Start a thread?

I could if I had time. I already have several pending threads I am holding I abeyance.

How do you know God exists? Baha'u'llah says he exists. How do you know Baha'u'llah's teachings are true? He's a Messenger of God.

Seems pretty circular.

I know that Baha’u’llah is a Messenger of God from looking at the evidence I just posted above. Baha’u’llah Himself is part of the evidence, but that certainly is not all of the evidence. That is why it is not circular; because there are ways to confirm who He was aside from anything He said about being a Messenger.

If you start another thread about the evidence for Baha'u'llah we can go into the things you mentioned in more depth.

I will keep that in mind but it will have to wait until I have more time to answer posts, not before next weekend.

You assume God is all-knowing. You haven't demonstrated that.

Nobody can demonstrate that but if God is not All-Powerful, All-Knowing and All-Wise,, then we can all take our toys and go home. I do not assume that, I believe it because of what Bahaullah wrote about God, which is corroborated by the Bible and the Qur’an.

And again, the idea that indirect communication is more effective, or convincing, than direct communication is contradicted by literally all communication we're familiar with as a species. Replying, "but he's god" is an irrelevant excuse, because he's a God talking to humans. Thus he should know how we communicate and what is effective or ineffective.

Who said that God is trying to be effective or convincing? This is where your problem lies; you assume God wants what you want, which is called projection in psychology. As I am sure I already said, if God had wanted everyone to believe in Him, God could have accomplished that. Here is the quote again. Making all men one people means making all people believers:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

No, it hasn't. Utter bull****. The method has garnered the belief of 93% of people in some version of "God," with wildly contradictory definitions and interpretations of who he is, what he's done, and what he wants from us.

That is a red herring. The salient point is that MOST people believe in God, not which God they believe in. In the future, everyone will believe in the same God, and there will be only one religion, but that is a long way off as humans do not change that quickly.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 248

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith. This can in no wise be achieved except through the power of a skilled, an all-powerful and inspired Physician. This, verily, is the truth, and all else naught but error.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

Only 0.1% of the world have actually gotten the correct message. That is abysmally poor communication - and is rate of communication we'd expect of a man-made religion like say, Mormonism (17 million) or Scientology (difficult to get stats, could be a couple million).

It is not poor communication on the part of God or Baha’u’llah, it is poor choices on the part of the recipients of the communication, for the following reasons:1.

1. Most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if the Baha’i Faith is true or not.
2. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.
3. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”
4. The rest of the world’s population are agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.
5. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion do not believe that God communicates via Messengers.
6. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws.

Yea if. Giant if. And if he's a made-up myth, he doesn't know a thing. And could be alleged to do all kinds of objectionable, silly things.

That’s true, and you are free to believe that if you want to, as that is why God gave you free will.

Nonsense. If God says 1+1=3, sorry, God is factually incorrect. It makes perfectly logical sense to point that out. Now I agree that if we found out God said 1+1=3, that would mean he's not all-knowing...so should we really call him God? In which case I suppose you could say therefore God doesn't exist.

That is another red herring, because God does say 1+1=3. However, if you think you are right and God is wrong, then you will think that God makes mistakes. That’s how that goes.

How do you think you can find out if God made a mistake? You can look at what God revealed and disagree with it, but that does not mean you are right and god is wrong.

As we've already covered (I thought?) what "most people" do is irrelevant; most people adhere to their religion for totally uncritical reasons.

You are right that it does not matter what most people do. It only matters what you choose to do. To say they must be right because they are in the majority is the fallacy of ad populum. Logically speaking, most people could be right or wrong.

The only problem, again, is how in the world I could know I was actually reading God's words?

You probably would not know that right away, although I know people who did. But most people need to understand something about Baha’u’llah, His life and history of His Cause, before they are willing to believe that He was a Representative of God on earth. After they come to accept that, then everything else falls into place.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

This is a very flawed conclusion, based on misinformation.

1. I dispute that 'All theists have their own personal version of God!' .. they do not. The basic IDEA of God is uniformly homogeneous among MOST theists. Omniscient. Omnipresent. Omnipotence. Creator. Merciful. Holy. Pure. There may be minor nuances, or differences in perception (see 'Blind Men & Elephant story), but the BASIC CONCEPT of the Almighty is consistent throughout the human experience.

But is it not utterly fascinating that this list you give (Omniscient. Omnipresent. Omnipotence. Creator. Merciful. Holy. Pure.) is so very much at odds with how this very God behaves in all of the Scriptures that are supposed to be true depictions? I mean, like Omniscient: made people, thought it was "good," repented that He'd made them later when it turned out they weren't so good, so destroyed them all (so much for Merciful).

It takes a very stubborn and willful blindness to read every story in the Bible, and apply your list of attributes of God to that story, and to pretend (yes, PRETEND) that they all hold. It is utterly impossible, in every way, to do that with a book like Job, for example...one of (in my opinion) the ugliest things in the Bible.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That is true, and that is why I am still a Baha'i...
It is not a choice I can make to unbelieve in what is so obviously the truth from God.

And that? Is why indoctrination is so insidious... once indoctrinated, the believer's brain refuses anything contrary to what is firmly believed.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That percentage is much too low. My percentage of 93% is too high, but I think that the correct percentage lies somewhere in between the two.

At last survey? About 20% of the world no longer follows unproven god-claims. That number rises every year...

 

[Trailblazer]

If God wants me to know, he's picked a crappy method that is obviously flawed, so he's gonna have to change it up. If he chooses not to, he guarantees I won't believe in him. His call.

God wants you to know, but God is leaving it up to you to accept His terms or not accept them.
It won’t make any difference to God beause God does not need your belief.

I have no need for God, since the universe goes on as though he weren't there anyway. Again, if God wants to convince me he's there, he knows where to find me.

In this life we can all fool ourselves that we do not need God because there is always something else we can reach out for in a material world. It is after we die that the reality sets in.

God won’t be knocking on your door unless you open it first.

Agreed. He has picked a crappy, inferior method that guarantees that everyone won't believe in him. Despite both wanting everyone to believe in him and being literally omnipotent...
Again, the clear as day conclusion here is that this arrangement is absurd.

The caveat is that God wants everyone to believe in His Manifestation, who is Him. Anyone can believe that God exists, but it is really pointless unless we have knowledge of God and know what God expects of us.

“The beginning of all things is the knowledge of God, and the end of all things is strict observance of whatsoever hath been sent down from the empyrean of the Divine Will that pervadeth all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 5

God is not going to whisper that in the ears of 7.44 billion people. Using a Messenger is far more efficient and it is recorded on paper for everyone to refer to over time.

Then he's created a situation that ensures he won't be universally believed. No skin off my nose, either.

Okay then. If it is no problem for you it is no problem for God.

Huh. It's almost as though many, many different people are trying to tell you something...

And that would mean WHAT? It means that there are a lot of atheists like you, but there are a lot more believers like me, IF you want to make this into a numbers game.

Yes, it is. The details are always slightly unique but it's the similarities to pay attention to. The logic you're using is perfectly analogous.

There is nothing wrong with fundamentalism. If what one is following is the teachings and laws of God, it is as good as gold. Some people just don’t like it because they do not want to give up what they want, but true freedom is to do what God enjoins us to do, not what we want to do.

I have no problem following instructions and respecting people in authority; ask any of my ex-bosses. What I recognize, however, is that none of them are infallible. We are all human, we all have strengths and weaknesses and all make mistakes.

Yes, we are all human, but manifestations of God have a dual nature, both human and divine. When they speak as the Voice of God they speak with the authority of God.

In case you are unaware of it, many millennial are becoming Baha’is and they are the ones who are carrying the load and teaching the Faith; and no, most of the Baha’i youth are not Baha’is because their parents were.

Only by his choice. How many times must we tread this ground?

God does not have a choice as to whether He is too powerful. That is just God’s nature.

I'm gonna break something to you, friend. It's not that different from other religions. Christianity and Islam, as well as multiple subsects under those umbrella, have arrangements much like this. Sure, we have the Bible/Qur'an, but Jesus/Muhammad passed his authority and teachings on to others who now interpret and further explain them for the rest of us. The details are always slightly different in each case. The similarities are undeniable.

I am going to break something to you, friend. NO other religion in religious history ever had an arrangement like the Baha’i Faith with a Covenant written by the Prophet Founder who passed along the succession of authority and left the religion which a chief governing body such as the Universal House of Justice (UHJ). The Pope does not count because he was not appointed or envisioned by Jesus. Baha’u’llah made provisions for the formation of the UHJ in His Writings while He was still alive.
Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

No.

No. No. No.

We've been over this. There is no "cannot" with an omnipotent being. He chooses not to show up himself.

Correction: God cannot show up and do what a man can do because God is not a man. God cannot become a man because then God would no longer be God, He would be a man. This is logic 101 stuff.

God could manifest His Eternal Essence on earth, but what good would it do? Here is what it would do, and it would not be good:

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

How can a Messenger know, any more than you? Again, I'm looking for a methodology.

We cannot know that methodology, only the Messenger knows that methodology. Baha'u'llah explained in words how the revelation came to him, but that is not something we can understand because we did not experience it. We can either choose to believe it or we can reject it.

You need an attorney to talk to God? Are you afraid he's going to screw you? Overcharge you? What a weird conception of God.

That was just an analogy that demonstrates the idea of having a go-between in order not to have to deal with someone directly. You think you want to deal with God directly because you know nothing about the nature of God. If you knew anything about the nature of God then you would understand why there has to be a go-between.

 

[Trailblazer]

And that? Is why indoctrination is so insidious... once indoctrinated, the believer's brain refuses anything contrary to what is firmly believed.

Nobody indoctrinated me.
I FREELY chose to be a Baha'i.

 

[usfan]

But is it not utterly fascinating that this list you give (Omniscient. Omnipresent. Omnipotence. Creator. Merciful. Holy. Pure.) is so very much at odds with how this very God behaves in all of the Scriptures

This is not about the bible, but generic 'theism'. All those attributes of God are there, in the Judeo/Christian scriptures, though.. I don't understand your objection..

 

[Trailblazer]

At last survey? About 20% of the world no longer follows unproven god-claims. That number rises every year...

Sorry Bob, since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.
.
The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. It is also interesting to note that agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God wants you to know, but God is leaving it up to you to accept His terms or not accept them.\

This is absolutely false--

Unless? God is quite incompetent, and unable to be convincing to skeptical folk. It's not our fault we are skeptics-- is it?

If "god" is capable of being convincing? Obviously, it chooses not to.

OR? God simply does not exist in the first place-- the simplest, and most likely scenario.

Whichever the case may be?

I want absolutely nothing to do with such an EVIL being as you describe.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Nobody indoctrinated me.
I FREELY chose to be a Baha'i.

I highly-highly doubt that. You were receptive -- someone laid the indoctrination ground-work when you were young.

A sane, adult, never being exposed to the God Virus as a vulnerable child? Naturally see all of that as ludicrous.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Sorry Bob, since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.
.
The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. It is also interesting to note that agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

LMAO! Oh. My. That's hilarious!

When all the scientific polling says otherwise... and I noted the Prominent Location of the tiny little cult you are a victim of, is Listed FIRST.

That's cute--- you think "wikipedia" is a valid source for a controversial issue.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Sorry Bob, since the year 2000, religion has made resurgence whereas atheism and agnosticism are on the decline.
.
The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).

Atheism was growing at a rate of 6.54% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.05% from 2000-2010. It is also interesting to note that agnosticism was growing at a rate of 5.45% from 1910-2010 but dropped to a growth rate of 0.32% from 2000-2010. That demonstrates that both atheism and agnosticism are on the decline but also that there are many more agnostics than atheists.

Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

Wrong. The first few links from "religion on the decline worldwide" google.

THE ONLY NAY-SAYERS ARE PURE RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA SOURCES. Interesting.

Religion declining in importance for many Americans, especially for Millennials - Religion News Service

'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe

Religion Declining, Secularism Surging | HuffPost

https://www.quora.com/Is-belief-in-God-on-the-decline-worldwide-and-occurring-in-all-religions

Protestants decline, more have no religion in a sharply shifting religious landscape

The decline of religion in the West

Catholics' Church Attendance Resumes Downward Slide

The Real Reason Religion Is Declining In America

The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion

https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/the-state-of-religion-declining-belief-in-god-worldwide

 

[Trailblazer]

This is absolutely false--

Unless? God is quite incompetent, and unable to be convincing to skeptical folk. It's not our fault we are skeptics-- is it?

If "god" is capable of being convincing? Obviously, it chooses not to.

That is true. God is competent and capable but chooses not to be convincing.

 

[Trailblazer]

I highly-highly doubt that. You were receptive -- someone laid the indoctrination ground-work when you were young.

Hardly....Both my parents dropped out of Christianity before any of their children were born.
I never even heard the word God or religion until I discovered the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college.
I was not even curious about God as a child, I took after my dad who was an atheist...
I never read one page of the Bible till I came to forums in 2013.

A sane, adult, never being exposed to the God Virus as a vulnerable child? Naturally see all of that as ludicrous.

Never having been exposed to God or Christianity or the Bible as a child I saw that the Baha'i Faith made sense.

 

[Trailblazer]

When all the scientific polling says otherwise...

Citations please.

 

[We Never Know]

Hardly....Both my parents dropped out of Christianity before any of their children were born.
I never even heard the word God or religion until I discovered the Baha'i Faith during my first year of college.
I was not even curious about God as a child, I took after my dad who was an atheist...
I never read one page of the Bible till I came to forums in 2013.

Never having been exposed to God or Christianity or the Bible as a child I saw that the Baha'i Faith made sense.

Growing up did you celebrate christmas and easter? If yes what were the reasons you were told they are celebrated for?

 

[Trailblazer]

LMAO! Oh. My. That's hilarious!

When all the scientific polling says otherwise... .

Sorry Bob, it is not only Wikipedia that supports my claim.
Fasten your seat belt and prepare yourself for a long ride.

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

16 March 2016, 07:56

Atheism is not growing despite what atheists may say. Real surveys and statistics say atheism is on the decline worldwide. Sorry atheists but atheism is not on the rise nor is it winning. It's still the minority and a declining one at that.

The Pew Research Center's statistics show that atheism is expected to continue to decline all the way into 2050 with a continued growth of religion. Other research also shows a huge surge in growth for Christianity in China which is currently the world's most "atheist" nation because of the atheist communist government suppressing religion, the research suggests that China will soon become the world's most Christian nation within 15 years.

This is simply history repeating itself: Christianity prospered in Rome back in the ancient era when it was suppressed and it still grew in the militant atheist soviet Russia when it was suppressed there only a century ago with the majority of Russians today now also identifying as Christian. Just goes to show that atheist suppression of religion still doesn't stop religion.

Sources:

The Future of World Religions: Population Growth Projections, 2010-2050
Religiously Unaffiliated
China on course to become 'world's most Christian nation' within 15 years
http://masterrussian.com/russia/facts.htm

Atheism growing? No, atheism is actually on the decline!

Oh, and it is my itty-bitty little religion that is responsible for all this growth in religion.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wrong. The first few links from "religion on the decline worldwide" google.

THE ONLY NAY-SAYERS ARE PURE RELIGIOUS PROPAGANDA SOURCES. Interesting.

Religion declining in importance for many Americans, especially for Millennials - Religion News Service

'Christianity as default is gone': the rise of a non-Christian Europe

Religion Declining, Secularism Surging | HuffPost

https://www.quora.com/Is-belief-in-God-on-the-decline-worldwide-and-occurring-in-all-religions

Protestants decline, more have no religion in a sharply shifting religious landscape

The decline of religion in the West

Catholics' Church Attendance Resumes Downward Slide

The Real Reason Religion Is Declining In America

The World's Newest Major Religion: No Religion

https://thehumanist.com/news/hnn/the-state-of-religion-declining-belief-in-god-worldwide

Religion in the West = Christianity...

You are right Bob, Christianity is declining, but Islam and the Baha'i Faith are growing.

Besides that, the West is not the whole world, it is just the Western world, mostly Christian.

 

[Trailblazer]

Growing up did you celebrate christmas and easter? If yes what were the reasons you were told they are celebrated for?

I thought Christmas was for getting presents and eating Turkey and I thought Easter was for going out to eat at the University restaurant, which was a big event in my family...

Do you think I am kidding?
I did not know who Jesus was and I never heard of the resurrection until I came to Christian forums in 2013.

It is rather obvious why the Baha'i Faith was easy for me to accept. I had no confirmation bias.