The Father knows, but not the Son?

[Katzpur]

Essense does not mean "roles and responsibilities." The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have different roles and responsibilities, but share the same substance.

Okay, so bear with me. I really am trying to understand the meaning of the word "essense." Would it be a synonym for "substance"? Would you mind trying to define the word "essense" for me (and also "substance" if you see them as having different meanings). Nothing too metaphysical, please. Just a simple definition of the word.

The critical point is the divinity of Christ. The body of Christ exists both historically as a human body and eternally as God. It is both matter, real matter, and God, real God, as God truly is God. However, the way that God flows and emobies Christ is in a manner that God chooses, including dying on a cross and not knowing certain things...

It would be so much easier if we could just take the Bible at face value -- the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.

1) Being is not the same thing as Person. Three persons, One Being.

Then could you define the word "being" for me -- preferably without using the word "essense" or "substance" as that would just take us around in circles.

2) God has always been described as Spirit. The Holy Spirit is nothing new in Christian theology IMHO. The only thing is the role that the Holy Spirit has is distinctly different from the Father and the Son, supernaturally empowering the Church with divine charisma (gifts).

Do you think there is any reason why the scriptures refer to Him by this title (since you obviously believe God the Father is a "holy spirit," too)?

As for the "contradictory" three persons imagery, the Trinity dogma is an attempt to preserve the strict monotheism of Judaism.

Yes, that much I understand.

Thank you for your time, AE.

 

[writer]

27 Trinity dogma is an attempt to preserve the strict monotheism of Judaism.
"Trinity dogma," in this case, may mean some thing peculiar, while
"God...the Spirit of God...Our image...Us...His image...He" Genesis 1:1-2, 26-27
and "name of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit...the Word was with God, the Word was God, He was with God" Mt 28:19; Jn 1:1-2;
mean something else. They're not "an attempt to preserve strict monotheism of Judaism." Instead They're the same God who created the universe,
Jn 1:10; 8:58; Col 1:15-17; Heb 1:2-3, 8-12. The Alpha and Omega, Rv 1:8; 22:12-13

21 there are three persons that share the same essence. These three persons have unique qualities, roles, and responsibilities, yet are the same God. There is no metaphor for this Christian doctrine. It's a mystery, and frankly, no one understands it.
Very accurate. There're approximate symbols, such as electron, proton, neutron comprising one atom; water in 3 forms simultaneously yet comprising one element; etc. God's mysterious

The Son is the only material aspect of God, being compelely human and therefore existing biologically in history, and God flows in and through him eternally in a unique way that God is present no where else - even creating the cosmos for and through Christ.
Good

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Okay, so bear with me. I really am trying to understand the meaning of the word "essense." Would it be a synonym for "substance"? Would you mind trying to define the word "essense" for me (and also "substance" if you see them as having different meanings). Nothing too metaphysical, please. Just a simple definition of the word.

By essence and substance I mean that Jesus and God are the same Being in all ways, but are distinguised persons within that same substance/essence/being. Substance and essence are synonymns with different meanings, and how they apply to the divine is a mystery. Obviously then I am using substance and essence both as metaphors for the divine Being, which exists as matter in the Body of Christ and Spirit in the Father and Holy Spirit all at the same time.

It would be so much easier if we could just take the Bible at face value -- the Father is the Father and the Son is the Son.

Trinitarians do...

Then could you define the word "being" for me -- preferably without using the word "essense" or "substance" as that would just take us around in circles.

HAHAHAhahahah

"Being" simply is a form of the verb "to be." In the beginning, God is "being" only as God "is." God simply "is" God. This One "is" is a three-in-one Being, according to Trinitarian theology.

Do you think there is any reason why the scriptures refer to Him by this title (since you obviously believe God the Father is a "holy spirit," too)?

Process Theology of the Cross

 

[Katzpur]

By essence and substance I mean that Jesus and God are the same Being in all ways, but are distinguised persons within that same substance/essence/being. Substance and essence are synonymns with different meanings, and how they apply to the divine is a mystery. Obviously then I am using substance and essence both as metaphors for the divine Being, which exists as matter in the Body of Christ and Spirit in the Father and Holy Spirit all at the same time.

Okay, substance = essence = being. I still don't know what that means.

Trinitarians do...

You could sure fool me!

HAHAHAhahahah

And that would mean, "I haven't a clue"?

"Being" simply is a form of the verb "to be." In the beginning, God is "being" only as God "is." God simply "is" God. This One "is" is a three-in-one Being, according to Trinitarian theology.

I know that. But where does the Bible describe "this One" as a "three-in-one Being," (since we apparently can take it at face value).

Thanks anyway.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I was laughing because I had defined Being in terms of essence and substance just before I saw that you asked for a definition without those terms...

I know that. But where does the Bible describe "this One" as a "three-in-one Being," (since we apparently can take it at face value).

Christianity comes from Judaism, which during the birth of Christianity was strictly monotheistic. When God is described in terms as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and all three as Creator God of Genesis 1.1, the only place for strictly monotheistic Jews and new Gentile converts to turn to is a doctrine of the Trinity. Otherwise, we get three gods, which is entirely irrecoincilable to monotheism.

Here is an excellent book on monotheism in Judaism:

No Other Gods: Emergent Monotheism in Israel by Robert Karl Gnuse. JSOT Sup 241.

After Israel's long struggle with polytheism, which the prophets explained was the reason for the destruction of the Temple and the land by the Assyrians and the Babylonians, the exile, and the oppression by the Greeks and Romans, and especially the attempt by Antiochus Epiphanes to destroy Judaism completely and the subsequent religious fervor promoted by the early and late Jewish wars, the return to polytheism in Christianity would be unthinkable.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Okay, substance = essence = being. I still don't know what that means.

This may help.

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html

Whatever divine essence or substance that consitutes Divinity that is Yahweh, the One Creator God - all powerful, all knowing, all present to the extent that this God is, is present in the persons of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit equally.

The substance and essence of Divinity are only known to that Divinity, and partially revealed in metaphor to the prophets and recorded in the the canons of Holy Tradition.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The definitions of essence and substance on google will suffice:

Definitions of essence on the Web (I have highlighted my usage of these synonymns):

• [SIZE=-1]
• kernel: the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience; "the gist of the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican Party"; "the nub of the story"
• any substance possessing to a high degree the predominant properties of a plant or drug or other natural product from which it is extracted
• effect: the central meaning or theme of a speech or literary work
• perfume: a toiletry that emits and diffuses a fragrant odor
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/SIZE]
  [SIZE=-1]
• In philosophy, essence is the attribute (or set of attributes) that make an object or substance what it fundamentally is. The notion of essence has acquired many slightly but importantly different shades of meaning throughout the history of philosophy; most of them derive from its use in Aristotle and its evolution within the scholastic tradition.
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essence

Definitions of substance on the Web:

• [SIZE=-1]
• that which has mass and occupies space; "an atom is the smallest indivisible unit of matter"
• the stuff of which an object consists
• kernel: the choicest or most essential or most vital part of some idea or experience; "the gist of the prosecutor's argument"; "the heart and soul of the Republican Party"; "the nub of the story"
• meaning: the idea that is intended; "What is the meaning of this proverb?"
• means: considerable capital (wealth or income); "he is a man of means"
• message: what a communication that is about something is about
  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn[/SIZE]

[/SIZE]

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks, AE. I'll spend some time tomorrow trying to get my arms around everything you've posted.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Thanks, AE. I'll spend some time tomorrow trying to get my arms around everything you've posted.

It's important to note that belief in the Trinity is confessional. It's a mystery of God and better understood in general rather than specific terms.

The interpretation goes like this:

1) The God of the Old Testament is One, Creator of the World, God of Israel

2) The Israelites had a tough time with this concept before the exile

3) After the exile, the Israelites were strictly monotheistic

4) Some Israelites, including Jesus, together founded Christianity, and at some point - either the Church or Jesus Himself taught that Jesus was God (the Holy Spirit being God is no problem at all, obviously)

5) Therefore, since Jesus and his followers were strictly monotheistic Israelites giving teachings to other strictly monotheistic Israelites, his followers and their disciples interpreted these teachings as monotheistic - Jesus is the One God who Created the World, God of Israel.

 

[writer]

49 Some Israelites, including Jesus, together founded Christianity,
To the contrary: Jesus is Christ. Who was conceived (Mt 1:18; Lk 1:31-32; Jn 1:14; Isa 7:14; Micah 5:2)

at some point - either the Church or Jesus Himself taught that Jesus was God
Teaching by manifesting His divinity as Creator per His forgiving sins (Mk 2:7), healings, creation (Jn 6:11), ruling over nature and demons, labelling Himself Son of God (5:18), labelling Himself I Am (8:58), His Father revealing to others His Son (Mt 16:16-17),

Therefore, since Jesus and his followers were strictly monotheistic Israelites giving teachings to other strictly monotheistic Israelites, his followers and their disciples interpreted these teachings as monotheistic - Jesus is the One God who Created the World, God of Israel.
amen. One Jehovah (Mk 12:29; Jn 8:58; Mt 28:19).
Who became one Man

 

[may]

getting back to the original word of God is the thing to do, and the false teachings that infiltrated the congregations started soon after the apostles died, yes men among themselves slyly brought in wrong teachings and the trinity teaching is just one of many ,its good to know that many modern bibles have seen the error of adding spurious words to the word of God and they have removed them. Yes false teaching certainly did have a bad effect on the pure word of God ,but no worries all serious good translators now realize that they are spurious words added to try and give credit to a false teaching . tampering with Gods word is very bad .After "witness bearers" אABVgSyh,p omit the words added in later Gr. mss and Vgc, namely: "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the holy spirit; and these three are one. (8) And there are three witness bearers on earth."

 

[jonny]

Sorry if i'm being naive Becky, but if it invalidated the Trinitarian view of God, wouldn't it also invalidate the LDS view?
I mean how can the Father and Son be one in mind, will, and purpose if the Father knows something the Son doesn't?

I think it's clear in the Bible that Christ progressed in this life and did not come out of Mary's womb all-knowing. I believe that this is something that Christ probably knows now. I'm sure there was a time in his life that he didn't know the role that he was sent here to play also.

 

[may]

I think it's clear in the Bible that Christ progressed in this life and did not come out of Mary's womb all-knowing. I believe that this is something that Christ probably knows now. I'm sure there was a time in his life that he didn't know the role that he was sent here to play also.

Jehovah and his son Jesus christ are in unity of thought regarding Gods purpose for the earth , but Jehovah is the one who will give the command to Jesus to go into action to Judge the nations . yes i think that Jesus did not come out of marys womb knowing about heavenly things , but at his baptism the heavens were opened up to him ,and his pre-human life that he had in the heavens with his father before he came to earth were opened up to him.
After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: ‘This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.’"—Matt. 3:13-17.

 

[adilrockstar]

Mark 13:32

"But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."


To my understanding, in mainstream Christianity (Trinitarian Christianity); the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one 'being'. So how is it that only the Father knows of the Son's coming in this instance? To me this just proves the non-Trinitarian view, but that's just my POV.

What's yours on this passage of scripture?

It actually proves the Trinity. Showing that they are seperate beings.

 

[Katzpur]

It actually proves the Trinity. Showing that they are seperate beings.

Angellous_evangelous just got through saying that they are "one Being." So who's right -- him or you?

 

[Bishka]

It actually proves the Trinity. Showing that they are seperate beings.

That makes no sense. You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

Either they are or they are not the trinity.

 

[adilrockstar]

Angellous_evangelous just got through saying that they are "one Being." So who's right -- him or you?

They are seperate beings of one accord and authority over humanity.
AE and I disagree on lots of things.

 

[adilrockstar]

That makes no sense. You contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

Either they are or they are not the trinity.

I feel the same way about your statement.

It all depends on how a person views the Trinity.

 

[Katzpur]

They are seperate beings of one accord and authority over humanity.

You do realize how LDS that statement sounds, don't you?

 

[writer]

54 the Trinity. Showing that they are seperate beings.
Separate beings's not the "Trinity."
That'd be 3 Gods, which's more like Mormonism, polytheism. Not the revelation in the NT or O. Hear O Israel, Jehovah your God's one Jehovah.
Jehovah's 3 in 1, and there's only one God