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The End of Civic Religious Duty in the United States?

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
We may be approaching the end of Civic Religious Duty in the United States. We can examine the signs, but, nowhere can such a Complex topic be given a short or definitive answer. I will not have one for you, anyway.

When the First colonizers to form the 13 Colonies or States in America, the first successful colonists were the Reformed Westminster Confession subscribers, the Puritans. We celebrate in our Nation the Puritan Thanksgiving. This was Reagan's "City on a Hill" taken from the Puritan speech "on Christian Charity".

The Movement for the full Reformed Religion in the Church of England died down, leading to the dissolution of the Puritan structure, which was assumed by the Presbyterians , which started even in Colonial times. Puritans joined the Presbyterian Church.

When George Washington and the United States were declaring independence, a third of signers were Presbyterians. Scotland and Presbyterians know so well the need for States outside of the harms of militarists and Empires. The Anglican Church of course sided with its Central Masters in London at Westminster Abbey. Many Anglican Priests fled across to England. Anglicans continued to move toward centrality with Catholicism.

Full of much controversy, and no doubt also, wrongs, the only public legitimacy of the Confederate Government over the States was the Presbyterian Religion. No other cause of Responsibility and Duty is as near as prominent.

Woodrow Wilson and "My Country Tis of Thee" celebrate our long Patriotic history in being Puritans and then Presbyterians.

Many Presbyterians went to other countries as this being the Representation of the United States of America, specifically in Mexico and Korea.

After the Korean War, in office and for a very rational political decision making, sided with Presbyterians specifically to make our new National Motto "In God we Trust". He also added into our Pledge of Allegiance the phrase, "Under God", which makes an oath of the Union of the states, and Justice for all, obviously.

Now what we Easily Miss, is that this is probably already the state of affairs by the time of the 1920's. The Modernist-Fundamentalist controversy leads to Americans alone "editing" the Westminster Confession, they have decided with Presbyterian Modernism, to no longer have the patriotic outlook.

What we will Easily Miss, is that the 1920s had 7 Million Presbyterians, 2 Million African Americans as well. Therefore, the new direction has led to a collapse of these truths of Civic Religious Duty in America to the religion in the PCUSA to 1.4 million. This state of affairs does need to change! it will change with the death of Civic Religious Duty in the United States in any versions we are trying to express it.

Do you believe the United States will be "converted" at the National level at any other occurrence of the failing of "separation of Church and State"? Will any other Religion form an important historical context of the United States? What should be done about the reforms in this Generation that have Formed under President Eisenhower's direction in 1952 toward an insular Presbyterian patriotism? Is it the End of a Civic Religious Duty in the United States?

Knox_MaryQueenofScots.jpg

(Pictured: Presbyterianism founder John Knox placing the Scottish Saltire flag over top the Royal flag, the heraldry of the King and Queens of Scotland. Patriotism to the Church of a Nation and Civic Religious Duty may be diminishing and disappearing in the United States)
 

sooda

Veteran Member
We may be approaching the end of Civic Religious Duty in the United States. We can examine the signs, but, nowhere can such a Complex topic be given a short or definitive answer. I will not have one for you, anyway.

When the First colonizers to form the 13 Colonies or States in America, the first successful colonists were the Reformed Westminster Confession subscribers, the Puritans. We celebrate in our Nation the Puritan Thanksgiving. This was Reagan's "City on a Hill" taken from the Puritan speech "on Christian Charity".

The Movement for the full Reformed Religion in the Church of England died down, leading to the dissolution of the Puritan structure, which was assumed by the Presbyterians , which started even in Colonial times. Puritans joined the Presbyterian Church.

When George Washington and the United States were declaring independence, a third of signers were Presbyterians. Scotland and Presbyterians know so well the need for States outside of the harms of militarists and Empires. The Anglican Church of course sided with its Central Masters in London at Westminster Abbey. Many Anglican Priests fled across to England. Anglicans continued to move toward centrality with Catholicism.

Full of much controversy, and no doubt also, wrongs, the only public legitimacy of the Confederate Government over the States was the Presbyterian Religion. No other cause of Responsibility and Duty is as near as prominent.

Woodrow Wilson and "My Country Tis of Thee" celebrate our long Patriotic history in being Puritans and then Presbyterians.

Many Presbyterians went to other countries as this being the Representation of the United States of America, specifically in Mexico and Korea.

After the Korean War, in office and for a very rational political decision making, sided with Presbyterians specifically to make our new National Motto "In God we Trust". He also added into our Pledge of Allegiance the phrase, "Under God", which makes an oath of the Union of the states, and Justice for all, obviously.

Now what we Easily Miss, is that this is probably already the state of affairs by the time of the 1920's. The Modernist-Fundamentalist controversy leads to Americans alone "editing" the Westminster Confession, they have decided with Presbyterian Modernism, to no longer have the patriotic outlook.

What we will Easily Miss, is that the 1920s had 7 Million Presbyterians, 2 Million African Americans as well. Therefore, the new direction has led to a collapse of these truths of Civic Religious Duty in America to the religion in the PCUSA to 1.4 million. This state of affairs does need to change! it will change with the death of Civic Religious Duty in the United States in any versions we are trying to express it.

Do you believe the United States will be "converted" at the National level at any other occurrence of the failing of "separation of Church and State"? Will any other Religion form an important historical context of the United States? What should be done about the reforms in this Generation that have Formed under President Eisenhower's direction in 1952 toward an insular Presbyterian patriotism? Is it the End of a Civic Religious Duty in the United States?

Knox_MaryQueenofScots.jpg

(Pictured: Presbyterianism founder John Knox placing the Scottish Saltire flag over top the Royal flag, the heraldry of the King and Queens of Scotland. Patriotism to the Church of a Nation and Civic Religious Duty may be diminishing and disappearing in the United States)

The first settlers in the colonies quarreled among themselves. The Dutch Reformed didn't like the Baptists and neither would do business with the Quakers.

And none of them liked the Huguenots.

Civil religious duty sounds like the Dominionists. .. and that's malarkey.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Nothing religious should be imposed upon people. There never has been any federal "civic religious duty," and to have such would be in violation of many laws and a blatant infringement upon our right to worship freely. Which includes the freedom to not worship at all.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Civic Religious Duty

In earlier times that duty led to people being against slavery. During the Vietnam War, a local minister was connected to people helping deserters to get into Canada. And that's just two examples.

Now public religion has been taken over by those who espouse right-wing causes.

But there are still religious leaders who offer immigrants sanctuary, show up to help when disasters strike and so forth. A group I volunteer with works with religious leaders who feed and cloth the homeless, aid the sick and so forth.

So I don't think the spirit of duty is dead. Rather it's diminishing as organized religion diminishes. It will survive in a different form and I pray grow stronger.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
So hmm... Thanks posters. sooda is correct, in that the Reformed split up the Colonies. We'll note that New York and New Jersey used to have Dutch Colony status. The Scottish settled in the Appalachian Mountain range past the English, mainly after the Union of the United Kingdom in 1702, thus, redneck, hillbilly, Appalachian folk, etc.

Oh, I agree with the last two posters. My dictionary on "civic" gives me administration, or local area or municipal. I'm going for the idea, the Kingdom is sanctioned by a religion and all the Kingdoms in the world fell taking a Religion with it, and inseparably linked. What Church though we tend not to choose this, do you see when looking at United States Administration? 12 of the 13 Colonies had an official religion and nowhere is 'separation of church and state' in the Constitution, which is originally coined by Baptists.

So you can see that most Christian Denominations you will see with us today would Not Be Receptive to association and responsibility for United States government. I think everyone should be able to understand that gap that existed in Early America between the 1st Amendment of Free Religion, no imposing religion, no federal Establishment, and a non-binding favoritism that is often practiced.

So supposedly, the Causes that sun rise are quoting are all personal denominational causes without patriotic association to a Nation's linked Religion.
 

Aurelius

Contemplating Living
Jefferson said separation of church and state was meant to be inferred from the First Amendment.

Madison went even further and clearly supported it as separation of powers because government and religion joined go corrupt. Therefore the separation of powers also safeguards the integrity of religions.

Therefore, we have precedent to suggest separation of powers is strongly implied.

The real pity is the further we get from our founding, the less the religious Protestant bodies believe in what they did. Namely the enterprise of 'pure religion'.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that. I thought about this throughout the day yesterday. My overall topic was demanding an answer. I bet something else will come along. President Eisenhower would strike us as odd already today in the same ways people thought he was odd back then. I'm running on Religious Leadership in America. Is that against the constitution sir? (Reads the 1st amendment aloud). Has anyone ever felt Religiously hindered from the daily morning Pledge of Allegiance? It is 100% monotony and a group reciting. The moment of silence is far more oppressive in the suggestion that the silent prayer should be normalized for one's self? I think Eisenhower's "In God We Trust", it fits our support of the "Star Spangled Banner" as the anthem.
 
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Aurelius

Contemplating Living
It is against the First Amendment when we can deduce it would mean loss of liberty for those outside the religion in question. Since you implied what you're calling civic religious duty is Christian in nature. It deprives all else of their say and ultimately their liberties.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
That kind of leads into the topic that by the 70's this Presbyterian movement of National Civic Religion I was just talking about, Citizens bring it to court and say, why is the "Christian God" our motto. Why is my muslim Student praying an oath and covenant to a flag to a Christian God. I mean, that's not the exact situation of the case. The highest Court decision since the 70's has already decided you're free to make any interpretation of any sort of higher power. Eisenhower was already saying any sort of Abrahamic anti-communist Christian/Jew I think. Its probably not even PCUSA associated stuff anymore.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Nothing religious should be imposed upon people. There never has been any federal "civic religious duty," and to have such would be in violation of many laws and a blatant infringement upon our right to worship freely. Which includes the freedom to not worship at all.
There was a bit'o religious duty in military service.
I recall exhortations to fight godless communism.
This seemed particularly ironic when I faced the draft,
cuz Nixon's fixing of wages & prices was an unconstitutional
drift towards communism.
So a commie wanted to send this atheist to kill "godless communists"?
No ****ing way!
 

Aurelius

Contemplating Living
@MikeDwight I think the rulings in question were wrong from the get go. Under God and all that. The original pledge was a beautiful tribute to representative government as an ideal. It wasn't religious, or even exclusively government oriented.

I object equally strongly to the addition of definite qualifiers because a government and country can go astray from the ideals of representative democracy.

quote-i-pledge-allegiance-to-my-flag-and-the-republic-for-which-it-stands-one-nation-indivisible-with-francis-bellamy-290143.jpg
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
@MikeDwight I think the rulings in question were wrong from the get go. Under God and all that. The original pledge was a beautiful tribute to representative government as an ideal. It wasn't religious, or even exclusively government oriented.

I object equally strongly to the addition of definite qualifiers because a government and country can go astray from the ideals of representative democracy.
Thanks for that. I was thinking of that. That is what I'm pointing at and Eisenhower inserted religion to that original. Anyway.
The Nationalist sure can go astray from John Calvin in all this. I'd skip the whole school system and public Office. Enough about myself. Has anyone taken a single moment to explain all the Nationalist anti-intellectual recitations, such as this Pledge of Allegiance? This is like Nazis. Its more rightly Catholic. Recitations... The point was meant to be renewed learning, classical antiquity reveals its education, every profession having a song to Religion, John Calvin had a purposeful sermon on every single chapter of the Bible.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Thanks for that. I was thinking of that. That is what I'm pointing at and Eisenhower inserted religion to that original. Anyway.
The Nationalist sure can go astray from John Calvin in all this. I'd skip the whole school system and public Office. Enough about myself. Has anyone taken a single moment to explain all the Nationalist anti-intellectual recitations, such as this Pledge of Allegiance? This is like Nazis. Its more rightly Catholic. Recitations... The point was meant to be renewed learning, classical antiquity reveals its education, every profession having a song to Religion, John Calvin had a purposeful sermon on every single chapter of the Bible.

Aren't you gagging on a gnat?

The “dark side” of Calvin’s theology, and the sticking point for most non-Calvinists, is Calvin’s teaching that God has made a deliberate choice to save only certain people... the "elect".

And if He had decided – before the earth was even created – that you were going to end up in hell, there was no hope for you at all.

That is very dark and fatalistic.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Nah, don't you love people coming in and tossing out the comfort of millions upon millions for hundreds of years. Does anybody like "Jesus Loves Me"(this I know) , or does St. Peter have the keys, by the way? They've taken that on Mission, must be as good as Auld Lang Syne?
It means God isn't tasking everyone to catching everyone under every bush and under every barrel and rock, or God can't catch them all? If there is a new Mission they tend to Claim a Divine guidance that the Mission occurred. Calvinism is a theology, that used to be in Southern Baptists, Dutch , some others, so they had few international missions in the past.
 
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Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There was a bit'o religious duty in military service.
I recall exhortations to fight godless communism.
This seemed particularly ironic when I faced the draft,
cuz Nixon's fixing of wages & prices was an unconstitutional
drift towards communism.
So a commie wanted to send this atheist to kill "godless communists"?
No ****ing way!
Even at least somewhat recently there have been complaints from atheists soldiers being penalized for not attending Christian events. However, with that said, there has never been an official mandate of civic religious duty from Uncle Sam.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Even at least somewhat recently there have been complaints from atheists soldiers being penalized for not attending Christian events. However, with that said, there has never been an official mandate of civic religious duty from Uncle Sam.
Nothing official, but many small things unofficial can have the same effect.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Well, I like this, that older soldiers were never given the Religious Duty.
The Star Spangled Banner - National Anthem Lyrics
We Can basically say our new motto from 1952: "In God is our Trust", is from an 1812 war poem, that gained secondary status during the Civil War, to be adopted National Anthem in 1931.
Besides a Power Preserved a Nation and In God is Our Trust for the very last line, our soldiers are not given a Religious duty.
Hail Columbia - Lyrics
This song celebrating the 1st Presidency of George Washington in 1789 has far more religious connotation. Washington coming out of retirement since the Revolution and this international song checked an aggressive Europe. It is more in keeping with the Theology of Princeton. "Under God's Power she Flourishes" was a motto. There was a "Battle of Princeton" during the Revolution War. George Washington received a portrait from the University, or it actually hangs now at the University. It was copied by the Confederates for the "Bonnie Blue Flag" and it was the primary Union marching song. The Apotheosis of Washington The Apotheosis of Washington - Wikipedia reconciles the States to the legendary image shared by the South and the North of continuing the administration of Washington during the war.

This has all kinds of Religious Instruction and George Washington is not in the title of the song. His wife Martha, chose the spot for her residence, it would be the city of Washington in the District of Columbia. The Song evokes religious Gentlemanly, Knightly, Gallant qualities.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
We Can basically say our new motto from 1952: "In God is our Trust",
It may be your motto, it might be the unofficial American motto added only as a divisive means, but I assure you it is not my motto. It's not the motto of lots of others to. That's why officially America "shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion."
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
Look, if we can't get you to look up your terms these last few posts, its not going to be useful debate.
United States - Wikipedia
The official motto since 1952 is In God We Trust from the Star Spangled Banner and Eisenhower.
 
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