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The Edge of the Universe

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I have had this notion of certain principles of systems and what they might help us to understand about that which exists outside of our Universe.

It seems that all things tend to exist in terms of energies with polarized qualities such that one can adjust a knob for a given quality to one end or the other and combining opposites tend to cancel out either extreme.

For an example we have virtual particles which are created in pairs of opposites so as not to break the laws of symmetry. As one line of theory goes, the Universe arose out of an assymettry created by one such pair or groups of pairs of virtual particles which did not end up mutually annihilating. By some mysterious circumstance an assymettry act of creativity occurred and the Universe as we know it started.

The question then becomes what was the nature of this initial asymmetric event (a vacuum genesis)? How did it come about? How rate was it?

Being that we are within this Universe we do not appear to have the ability to make observations that could provide answers to these questions. Unless...we understand that the edge of our Universe is not a sharp boundary but a more graduated boundary. I have pondered that classical atomic physics describes what is more properly "what our Universe is like" while the sub-atomic, relativistic modern physics is really a look at the edges of our Universe which participate equally in our Universe but also reveal that which is outside of our Universe.

Now I think that the properties of systems which we might observe at the level of physics or chemistry or biology or ecosystems or human cultural systems might also apply to those systems in our Universe which are on the edge and also beyond it. This is an assumption, of course, but one, which like a paradigm, might prove useful for framing further questions about our Universe and what lies beyond it.

As I recall Hawking proposed that at the event horizon of a black hole which is effectively a hole in our classical Universe, is that virtual particles created nearby might result in an asymmetric creation of energy coming from that black hole. This Hawking radiation represents a behaviour of a kind with the notion of a Universe which has emerged from a similar event.

So there is a suggestion here that a structure related to an event horizon may be what "lies behind" the creation of our Universe and that such a structure was, by definition "extra-Universal".

Anyway I hope that this speculative thinking will inspire some thoughts and feedback.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
is it technically an 'edge', or is it another 'veil' to grow past?
turtles all the way down?
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
A sphere, in order to exist as an individual entity, must have a border between what is the sphere and what is not the sphere.
As far as we know our expanding "sphere" (our universe) encompasses all that is, so there is no such a thing as "not the sphere."


"The Cosmos [universe] is all that is or ever was or ever will be. ."
Carl Sagan​

.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
As far as we know our expanding "sphere" (our universe) encompasses all that is, so there is no such a thing as "not the sphere."

"The Cosmos [universe] is all that is or ever was or ever will be. ."
Carl Sagan​

.
if that is a rule then where does the anti-dark-matter idea get its standing from?
[just asking, not to be construed as cheek]
 

izzy88

Active Member
As far as we know our expanding "sphere" (our universe) encompasses all that is, so there is no such a thing as "not the sphere."

"The Cosmos [universe] is all that is or ever was or ever will be. ."
Carl Sagan​

.

Some guy making a statement doesn't prove that the statement is true - even if that guy is Carl Sagan.

To speak about what's on the edges of the universe is simply to speak about what's on the edges of our perception, because what we call "the universe" is just a conceptual model of all that we perceive as being outside of our selves. If you think there's nothing outside of what we can perceive - that what we perceive is literally all there is - that's your prerogative, but it seems like a pretty ad hoc way of approaching existence. It's also, in my opinion, far too boring. But to each his own.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
if that is a rule then where does the anti-dark-matter idea get its standing from?
[just asking, not to be construed as cheek]
From necessity. The necessity to explain the source of a gravitational exertion on galaxies.

"Scientists calculate the mass of large objects in space by studying their motion. Astronomers examining spiral galaxies in the 1970s expected to see material in the center moving faster than on the outer edges. Instead, they found the stars in both locations traveled at the same velocity, indicating the galaxies contained more mass than could be seen. Studies of the gas within elliptical galaxies also indicated a need for more mass than found in visible objects. Clusters of galaxies would fly apart if the only mass they contained were visible to conventional astronomical measurements.

How, then, can we say with confidence that we know dark matter exists? The way in which dark matter reveals its presence to us is through the gravitational effect it exerts on luminous matter in the universe. ("Luminous" matter is the matter we can see with our telescopes.) The most obvious example of the gravitational effects of dark matter can be observed when looking at the rotation of galaxies.

Dark matter is just what its name implies; it is matter (or mass) in the universe that we cannot see directly using any of our telescopes. Our telescopes see not only visible radiation (constituting the spectrum of colors that our own eyes can detect), but other types of radiation as well.

Dark matter does not reveal its presence by emitting any type of electromagnetic radiation. It emits no infrared radiation, nor does it give off radio waves, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays or gamma rays. It is truly "dark." Cosmologists believe we can only see about 10 percent of the matter in the universe. Until they can accurately determine the mass of the universe, they will not know for sure whether it is expanding infinitely or will stop expanding at some point and collapse."
source


.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
As far as we know our expanding "sphere" (our universe) encompasses all that is, so there is no such a thing as "not the sphere."

"The Cosmos [universe] is all that is or ever was or ever will be. ."
Carl Sagan​

.

I think that in my musings I am challenging, a bit, the late, great Carl Sagan's notion of the cosmos...we may have cause to "draw a line" within the scope of all observable behavior and say that on one side is the cosmos and on the other side is a reality beyond the cosmos.

This would be like how we moved the center of creation from the earth to the sun and then to the observable universe of galaxies...which is really centerless. I think our science may be enough for us to begin to talk about inside vs outside our universe.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
I think that in my musings I am challenging, a bit, the late, great Carl Sagan's notion of the cosmos...we may have cause to "draw a line" within the scope of all observable behavior and say that on one side is the cosmos and on the other side is a reality beyond the cosmos.

This would be like how we moved the center of creation from the earth to the sun and then to the observable universe of galaxies...which is really centerless. I think our science may be enough for us to begin to talk about inside vs outside our universe.
The ready reply would be that space itself didn't exist until the BB created it, and there never was/is any such thing as "the other side."

"The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological description of the development of the universe. According to estimation of this theory, space and time emerged together 13.799±0.021 billion years ago and the energy and matter initially present have become less dense as the universe expanded.

It is possible to see objects that are now further away than 13.799 billion light-years because space itself has expanded, and it is still expanding today."
Source:Wikipedia

.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Some guy making a statement doesn't prove that the statement is true - even if that guy is Carl Sagan.

To speak about what's on the edges of the universe is simply to speak about what's on the edges of our perception, because what we call "the universe" is just a conceptual model of all that we perceive as being outside of our selves. If you think there's nothing outside of what we can perceive - that what we perceive is literally all there is - that's your prerogative, but it seems like a pretty ad hoc way of approaching existence. It's also, in my opinion, far too boring. But to each his own.

Carl Sagan was referring to the greater cosmos as all that exists. and NOT only our universe.
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
From necessity. The necessity to explain the source of a gravitational exertion on galaxies.

"Scientists calculate the mass of large objects in space by studying their motion. Astronomers examining spiral galaxies in the 1970s expected to see material in the center moving faster than on the outer edges. Instead, they found the stars in both locations traveled at the same velocity, indicating the galaxies contained more mass than could be seen. Studies of the gas within elliptical galaxies also indicated a need for more mass than found in visible objects. Clusters of galaxies would fly apart if the only mass they contained were visible to conventional astronomical measurements.

How, then, can we say with confidence that we know dark matter exists? The way in which dark matter reveals its presence to us is through the gravitational effect it exerts on luminous matter in the universe. ("Luminous" matter is the matter we can see with our telescopes.) The most obvious example of the gravitational effects of dark matter can be observed when looking at the rotation of galaxies.

Dark matter is just what its name implies; it is matter (or mass) in the universe that we cannot see directly using any of our telescopes. Our telescopes see not only visible radiation (constituting the spectrum of colors that our own eyes can detect), but other types of radiation as well.

Dark matter does not reveal its presence by emitting any type of electromagnetic radiation. It emits no infrared radiation, nor does it give off radio waves, ultraviolet radiation, X-rays or gamma rays. It is truly "dark." Cosmologists believe we can only see about 10 percent of the matter in the universe. Until they can accurately determine the mass of the universe, they will not know for sure whether it is expanding infinitely or will stop expanding at some point and collapse."
source


.
so these anomalies that some scientists observe, drives them to keep looking
[even when they continue to fail]
until they prove their theories or find new ones that work better

How is that not the same for phenomenon labeled spiritual,
and i am not meaning superstitions or second hand stories,
but genuine puzzling events of a kind that cannot be labeled other than 'supernatural'..
.and there are many people who have observed/experienced such unusual events....
i get the whole challenge the second hand heretics and superstitionalists who follow by rote because everyone else is doing it,
but that isn't what I am talking about.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
so these anomalies that some scientists observe, drives them to keep looking
[even when they continue to fail]
until they prove their theories or find new ones that work better
Fail at what? And what theories are you talking about?

How is that not the same for phenomenon labeled spiritual,
For one thing, scientists aren't examining the spiritual.

and i am not meaning superstitions or second hand stories,
but genuine puzzling events of a kind that cannot be labeled other than 'supernatural'..
Sorry, but scientists don't label "puzzling events" "supernatural."

.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So, he was saying:

"All that exists is all that exists."

Good to know; thanks, Carl.

Correct referring to the greater 'cosmos' including multiverses which he supported. Do you doubt Carl Sagan believed in the multiverse.

The correct quote from his book: “The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be.”
 
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izzy88

Active Member
Correct referring to the greater 'cosmos' including multiverses which he supported. Do you doubt Carl Sagan believed in the multiverse.
I don't know what Carl Sagan believed about the multiverse, but I have a feeling you're just itching to tell me all about it.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
A sphere, in order to exist as an individual entity, must have a border between what is the sphere and what is not the sphere.
And what could possibly lie beyond that border. Of course, we do tend to think in terms of dimension.

Another possibility is that it will just continue indefinitely. The paradox is you think that there must be some kind of 'end' border or barrier and at the same time you can't picture there ever being an end to even that because there has to be 'something' beyond its end..
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I don't know what Carl Sagan believed about the multiverse, but I have a feeling you're just itching to tell me all about it.

The correct quote from his book: “The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be.”

He did not say: “The Universe is all that is or ever was or ever will be.”
 
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