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The Easy and Hard Problems of Consciousness

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I am of the alarming opinion that -- while philosophy is most often the wrong tool to use when attempting to answer questions about the physical world -- it is most often an essential tool to use when figuring out the right questions to ask. My view was insightfully expressed by Albert Einstein when he stated that figuring out the right question to ask was the hardest part of physics -- "The rest is easy". With that in mind, please allow me to tell you the scandalous and shocking tale of how it came about that today the world is by and large asking the wrong question about the nature of consciousness.

[Personally, I recommend you now take a moment to get some popcorn before proceeding.]

Our story begins with David J. Chalmers, an Australian philosopher and cognitive scientist. In 1995, Chalmers -- inspired by Rene Descartes' division of reality into two categories (mind and matter) -- posited that there were two kinds of problems regarding consciousness that humanity had to solve before it could claim bragging rights to having understood what consciousness is. The single "hard problem", and the many "easy problems".

Perhaps you have heard of the hard problem of consciousness, and the easy problems of consciousness? The easy problems are things like, "How does the brain (and body) give rise to perception, cognition, learning, and behavior." These easy problems are basically scientific problems. That is, they can be studied and answered via scientific methods and procedures. Of that, the world agrees.

On the other hand, the hard problem is a philosophical problem that -- according to Chalmers (and most of today's accepted wisdom) simply cannot be answered via the sciences. It is the problem of why there are qualia associated with consciousness. For instance, why is it that I do not merely see the color green, but also have an experience or feeling (qualia) that I am seeing the color green? Put differently, why are we not just robots or (in Chalmers' language) "zombies" who have no inner universe, no consciousness, at all? (DISCLAIMER: I am simplifying the issue to an appalling degree in order to make this OP easier to follow.)

Most significantly, Chalmers argues that we could solve every last easy problem and still not have a solution to the hard problem. That is, there is something special about consciousness that cannot be wholly explained in terms of physical brain mechanisms.

As you might have guessed by now, Chalmers' 1995 distinction between the easy and hard problems of consciousness is today largely accepted by both philosophers and scientists as the starting point for any and all further investigations of consciousness. It is asserted to be the right question to ask. In short, you would have a darn hard time convincing most people in the field of consciousness studies that the question was a meaningless poofle-sneeze-snucker that did not actually need to be answered at all. There are dissenters, of course, but they are in the minority.

Naturally, I myself am to be ranked among the dissenters since I am far too dumb to figure out why the majority is right. I simply do not buy into the notion that the hard problem of consciousness is an actual problem. Or, to put it differently, I believe that consciousness -- including the qualia of consciousness -- can almost certainly be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical brain (and body) mechanisms. (Eventually. We ain't there yet.) I do not hold my position on faith in science, but rather on the grounds that the distinction between hard and easy problems makes no sense to me, or even to my goldfish, who is brighter than me. But rather than go into any detail about my reasoning at this point, I am going to turn this thread over to you good and worthy people.

So, do you accept or reject the notion that consciousness cannot be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical mechanisms? Why or why not? And is there any popcorn left?

Cheers.




___________________________
 

Rational Agnostic

Well-Known Member
I am of the alarming opinion that -- while philosophy is most often the wrong tool to use when attempting to answer questions about the physical world -- it is most often an essential tool to use when figuring out the right questions to ask. My view was insightfully expressed by Albert Einstein when he stated that figuring out the right question to ask was the hardest part of physics -- "The rest is easy". With that in mind, please allow me to tell you the scandalous and shocking tale of how it came about that today the world is by and large asking the wrong question about the nature of consciousness.

[Personally, I recommend you now take a moment to get some popcorn before proceeding.]

Our story begins with David J. Chalmers, an Australian philosopher and cognitive scientist. In 1995, Chalmers -- inspired by Rene Descartes' division of reality into two categories (mind and matter) -- posited that there were two kinds of problems regarding consciousness that humanity had to solve before it could claim bragging rights to having understood what consciousness is. The single "hard problem", and the many "easy problems".

Perhaps you have heard of the hard problem of consciousness, and the easy problems of consciousness? The easy problems are things like, "How does the brain (and body) give rise to perception, cognition, learning, and behavior." These easy problems are basically scientific problems. That is, they can be studied and answered via scientific methods and procedures. Of that, the world agrees.

On the other hand, the hard problem is a philosophical problem that -- according to Chalmers (and most of today's accepted wisdom) simply cannot be answered via the sciences. It is the problem of why there are qualia associated with consciousness. For instance, why is it that I do not merely see the color green, but also have an experience or feeling (qualia) that I am seeing the color green? Put differently, why are we not just robots or (in Chalmers' language) "zombies" who have no inner universe, no consciousness, at all? (DISCLAIMER: I am simplifying the issue to an appalling degree in order to make this OP easier to follow.)

Most significantly, Chalmers argues that we could solve every last easy problem and still not have a solution to the hard problem. That is, there is something special about consciousness that cannot be wholly explained in terms of physical brain mechanisms.

As you might have guessed by now, Chalmers' 1995 distinction between the easy and hard problems of consciousness is today largely accepted by both philosophers and scientists as the starting point for any and all further investigations of consciousness. It is asserted to be the right question to ask. In short, you would have a darn hard time convincing most people in the field of consciousness studies that the question was a meaningless poofle-sneeze-snucker that did not actually need to be answered at all. There are dissenters, of course, but they are in the minority.

Naturally, I myself am to be ranked among the dissenters since I am far too dumb to figure out why the majority is right. I simply do not buy into the notion that the hard problem of consciousness is an actual problem. Or, to put it differently, I believe that consciousness -- including the qualia of consciousness -- can almost certainly be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical brain (and body) mechanisms. (Eventually. We ain't there yet.) I do not hold my position on faith in science, but rather on the grounds that the distinction between hard and easy problems makes no sense to me, or even to my goldfish, who is brighter than me. But rather than go into any detail about my reasoning at this point, I am going to turn this thread over to you good and worthy people.

So, do you accept or reject the notion that consciousness cannot be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical mechanisms? Why or why not? And is there any popcorn left?

Cheers.




___________________________

I like the OP topic, and it's something I've been studying a bit lately.

I'd like to ask, why is it that you think the hard problems of consciousness are not actual problems? What is the precise, physical and observable criterion that you would use to determine if something other than yourself is conscious?
 

Daemon Sophic

Avatar in flux
OK @Sunstone ..... the long and the short of your “hard question” seems to be:

Is there a soul in charge of each of our walking corpses....or are we simply walking corpses, responding to outside stimuli, much like a plant turns to follow the sun, or a bird bangs against its own reflection in a window over and over again.
Is the body and cluster of neurons (brain) all there is to me?

That about right?
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I am of the alarming opinion that -- while philosophy is most often the wrong tool to use when attempting to answer questions about the physical world -- it is most often an essential tool to use when figuring out the right questions to ask. My view was insightfully expressed by Albert Einstein when he stated that figuring out the right question to ask was the hardest part of physics -- "The rest is easy". With that in mind, please allow me to tell you the scandalous and shocking tale of how it came about that today the world is by and large asking the wrong question about the nature of consciousness.

[Personally, I recommend you now take a moment to get some popcorn before proceeding.]

Our story begins with David J. Chalmers, an Australian philosopher and cognitive scientist. In 1995, Chalmers -- inspired by Rene Descartes' division of reality into two categories (mind and matter) -- posited that there were two kinds of problems regarding consciousness that humanity had to solve before it could claim bragging rights to having understood what consciousness is. The single "hard problem", and the many "easy problems".

Perhaps you have heard of the hard problem of consciousness, and the easy problems of consciousness? The easy problems are things like, "How does the brain (and body) give rise to perception, cognition, learning, and behavior." These easy problems are basically scientific problems. That is, they can be studied and answered via scientific methods and procedures. Of that, the world agrees.

On the other hand, the hard problem is a philosophical problem that -- according to Chalmers (and most of today's accepted wisdom) simply cannot be answered via the sciences. It is the problem of why there are qualia associated with consciousness. For instance, why is it that I do not merely see the color green, but also have an experience or feeling (qualia) that I am seeing the color green? Put differently, why are we not just robots or (in Chalmers' language) "zombies" who have no inner universe, no consciousness, at all? (DISCLAIMER: I am simplifying the issue to an appalling degree in order to make this OP easier to follow.)

Most significantly, Chalmers argues that we could solve every last easy problem and still not have a solution to the hard problem. That is, there is something special about consciousness that cannot be wholly explained in terms of physical brain mechanisms.

As you might have guessed by now, Chalmers' 1995 distinction between the easy and hard problems of consciousness is today largely accepted by both philosophers and scientists as the starting point for any and all further investigations of consciousness. It is asserted to be the right question to ask. In short, you would have a darn hard time convincing most people in the field of consciousness studies that the question was a meaningless poofle-sneeze-snucker that did not actually need to be answered at all. There are dissenters, of course, but they are in the minority.

Naturally, I myself am to be ranked among the dissenters since I am far too dumb to figure out why the majority is right. I simply do not buy into the notion that the hard problem of consciousness is an actual problem. Or, to put it differently, I believe that consciousness -- including the qualia of consciousness -- can almost certainly be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical brain (and body) mechanisms. (Eventually. We ain't there yet.) I do not hold my position on faith in science, but rather on the grounds that the distinction between hard and easy problems makes no sense to me, or even to my goldfish, who is brighter than me. But rather than go into any detail about my reasoning at this point, I am going to turn this thread over to you good and worthy people.

So, do you accept or reject the notion that consciousness cannot be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical mechanisms? Why or why not? And is there any popcorn left?

Cheers.




___________________________

It's the narrative of our mind... It's been noted that in biology, scientific reductionism can't explain how the human mind works. Once neurons enter into bifurcating systems, nothing seems to add up mathematically anymore. This is a serious problem for science...

...So the only alternative science has left in understanding human consciousness, is to take it to the physics level, to see how it works.

...There is no other option, since scientific reductionism fails.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
Personally, I'm of the opinion that consciousness as defined in the 'hard problem' is an emergent property of neurological systems that have lots and lots of interacting subsystems...

There are qualia because we are able to construct the concept of qualia because we are one such complex, complicated and chaotic system that are able to abstract about our experience
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
OK @Sunstone ..... the long and the short of your “hard question” seems to be:

Is there a soul in charge of each of our walking corpses....or are we simply walking corpses, responding to outside stimuli, much like a plant turns to follow the sun, or a bird bangs against its own reflection in a window over and over again.
Is the body and cluster of neurons (brain) all there is to me?

That about right?

No. This is incorrect.
You should see this:
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Cooky

Veteran Member
It's not only biology or the natural sciences generally. There is no philosophical definition either.

Indeed. This is why some are suggesting physics as the best way to study consciousness.

...Is it part of a natural, or universal law? Who really knows... What other options are there for studying it? We know it exists afterall.
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
I think it's safe to say that human consciousness is a mental capacity that exists outside of all calculable measurement. It is non-mathematical, and makes no biological sense.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
I am of the alarming opinion that -- while philosophy is most often the wrong tool to use when attempting to answer questions about the physical world -- it is most often an essential tool to use when figuring out the right questions to ask. My view was insightfully expressed by Albert Einstein when he stated that figuring out the right question to ask was the hardest part of physics -- "The rest is easy". With that in mind, please allow me to tell you the scandalous and shocking tale of how it came about that today the world is by and large asking the wrong question about the nature of consciousness.

[Personally, I recommend you now take a moment to get some popcorn before proceeding.]

Our story begins with David J. Chalmers, an Australian philosopher and cognitive scientist. In 1995, Chalmers -- inspired by Rene Descartes' division of reality into two categories (mind and matter) -- posited that there were two kinds of problems regarding consciousness that humanity had to solve before it could claim bragging rights to having understood what consciousness is. The single "hard problem", and the many "easy problems".

Perhaps you have heard of the hard problem of consciousness, and the easy problems of consciousness? The easy problems are things like, "How does the brain (and body) give rise to perception, cognition, learning, and behavior." These easy problems are basically scientific problems. That is, they can be studied and answered via scientific methods and procedures. Of that, the world agrees.

On the other hand, the hard problem is a philosophical problem that -- according to Chalmers (and most of today's accepted wisdom) simply cannot be answered via the sciences. It is the problem of why there are qualia associated with consciousness. For instance, why is it that I do not merely see the color green, but also have an experience or feeling (qualia) that I am seeing the color green? Put differently, why are we not just robots or (in Chalmers' language) "zombies" who have no inner universe, no consciousness, at all? (DISCLAIMER: I am simplifying the issue to an appalling degree in order to make this OP easier to follow.)

Most significantly, Chalmers argues that we could solve every last easy problem and still not have a solution to the hard problem. That is, there is something special about consciousness that cannot be wholly explained in terms of physical brain mechanisms.

As you might have guessed by now, Chalmers' 1995 distinction between the easy and hard problems of consciousness is today largely accepted by both philosophers and scientists as the starting point for any and all further investigations of consciousness. It is asserted to be the right question to ask. In short, you would have a darn hard time convincing most people in the field of consciousness studies that the question was a meaningless poofle-sneeze-snucker that did not actually need to be answered at all. There are dissenters, of course, but they are in the minority.

Naturally, I myself am to be ranked among the dissenters since I am far too dumb to figure out why the majority is right. I simply do not buy into the notion that the hard problem of consciousness is an actual problem. Or, to put it differently, I believe that consciousness -- including the qualia of consciousness -- can almost certainly be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical brain (and body) mechanisms. (Eventually. We ain't there yet.) I do not hold my position on faith in science, but rather on the grounds that the distinction between hard and easy problems makes no sense to me, or even to my goldfish, who is brighter than me. But rather than go into any detail about my reasoning at this point, I am going to turn this thread over to you good and worthy people.

So, do you accept or reject the notion that consciousness cannot be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical mechanisms? Why or why not? And is there any popcorn left?

Cheers.

If you're interested in this I suggest reading some Dennett, say Consciousness Explained, he basically agrees with you...
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Here's exactly how biological science fails... In detail...

You do understand that falsifying one particular hypothesis is not the same thing as showing that biological science has failed, yes? Putting forward hypotheses and knocking them down is how science works.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
I am of the alarming opinion that -- while philosophy is most often the wrong tool to use when attempting to answer questions about the physical world -- it is most often an essential tool to use when figuring out the right questions to ask. My view was insightfully expressed by Albert Einstein when he stated that figuring out the right question to ask was the hardest part of physics -- "The rest is easy". With that in mind, please allow me to tell you the scandalous and shocking tale of how it came about that today the world is by and large asking the wrong question about the nature of consciousness.

[Personally, I recommend you now take a moment to get some popcorn before proceeding.]

Our story begins with David J. Chalmers, an Australian philosopher and cognitive scientist. In 1995, Chalmers -- inspired by Rene Descartes' division of reality into two categories (mind and matter) -- posited that there were two kinds of problems regarding consciousness that humanity had to solve before it could claim bragging rights to having understood what consciousness is. The single "hard problem", and the many "easy problems".

Perhaps you have heard of the hard problem of consciousness, and the easy problems of consciousness? The easy problems are things like, "How does the brain (and body) give rise to perception, cognition, learning, and behavior." These easy problems are basically scientific problems. That is, they can be studied and answered via scientific methods and procedures. Of that, the world agrees.

On the other hand, the hard problem is a philosophical problem that -- according to Chalmers (and most of today's accepted wisdom) simply cannot be answered via the sciences. It is the problem of why there are qualia associated with consciousness. For instance, why is it that I do not merely see the color green, but also have an experience or feeling (qualia) that I am seeing the color green? Put differently, why are we not just robots or (in Chalmers' language) "zombies" who have no inner universe, no consciousness, at all? (DISCLAIMER: I am simplifying the issue to an appalling degree in order to make this OP easier to follow.)

Most significantly, Chalmers argues that we could solve every last easy problem and still not have a solution to the hard problem. That is, there is something special about consciousness that cannot be wholly explained in terms of physical brain mechanisms.

As you might have guessed by now, Chalmers' 1995 distinction between the easy and hard problems of consciousness is today largely accepted by both philosophers and scientists as the starting point for any and all further investigations of consciousness. It is asserted to be the right question to ask. In short, you would have a darn hard time convincing most people in the field of consciousness studies that the question was a meaningless poofle-sneeze-snucker that did not actually need to be answered at all. There are dissenters, of course, but they are in the minority.

Naturally, I myself am to be ranked among the dissenters since I am far too dumb to figure out why the majority is right. I simply do not buy into the notion that the hard problem of consciousness is an actual problem. Or, to put it differently, I believe that consciousness -- including the qualia of consciousness -- can almost certainly be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical brain (and body) mechanisms. (Eventually. We ain't there yet.) I do not hold my position on faith in science, but rather on the grounds that the distinction between hard and easy problems makes no sense to me, or even to my goldfish, who is brighter than me. But rather than go into any detail about my reasoning at this point, I am going to turn this thread over to you good and worthy people.

So, do you accept or reject the notion that consciousness cannot be wholly and entirely explained in terms of physical mechanisms? Why or why not? And is there any popcorn left?

Cheers.




___________________________


Like anything else religious, it probably can. Religious and metaphysical thoughts tend to put the supernatural over or separate than the natural; but, it would be interesting if we accepted a mundane explanation of consciousness without loosing its role in the human metaphysical lifestyle and practice. I see it has a lot to do with the brain. I had a Tedtalk I posted here a couple of times of how our brain and and body are, in it's raw form for lake of better words, not a sentiment object. It does things specific for our survival. We interpret and put labels on our feelings as if they (and consciousness) has some form of personality or so have you when it's pretty straight forward.

Will people accept that, probably not. It puts a dent in the spirit-ual perception of life therefore the mystery and their soul. I can post the video if you guys are interested?
 

Cooky

Veteran Member
You do understand that falsifying one particular hypothesis is not the same thing as showing that biological science has failed, yes? Putting forward hypotheses and knocking them down is how science works.

That's why we're happy to see physics take up the challenge. You're not one of those who consider physics "woo" are you..? o_O

...Because the science breaks down when neural systems begin bifurcating. That's when math is no longer useful anymore... Just like trying to understand how gravity works using math is impossible.
 
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osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Why am I subject to consciousness? And how does a subject of consciousness exist in reality?

All the lights are on at home but no one is there to experience that. Consciousness is merely the facilities that enable the experience. But there is someone tied to the facilities of experience.

Science can learn all about the facilities, and nothing about the subject of them.

Your life may be an ever-changing process, and memory may fail you but we have enough facilities to recognize we are subjects.

It's not that green is green and that there is something it's like to be green. It is the fact that someone knows green is green that is baffling.

Which part of the brain I have is unquestionably me? Or is it the brain?

There seems to be a locus of the feeling of self somewhere between the eyes. So perhaps there is a location of subject. Or the body localizes the subject via the brain.

I think consciousness must be studied from the inside out. I would not be surprised if there were a physics to self that is extremely undetectable.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
That's why we're happy to see physics take up the challenge. You're not one of those who consider physics "woo" are you..? o_O

The idea that it might be a problem related to physics is rather fringe but not unheard of (notably Penrose). FWIW, I'm sceptical and find Dennett and Hofstadter's ideas more convincing.
 
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