Thief
Rogue Theologian
Let's not digress to a salvation rant.
That would be another topic.
And I think there is one in progress, if you need to go there.
As for ORIGINAL sin.....
Someone had to go first.
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The Doctrine of Original Sin
- Thread starter jmvizanko
- Start date
Let's not digress to a salvation rant.
That would be another topic.
And I think there is one in progress, if you need to go there.
As for ORIGINAL sin.....
Someone had to go first.
jtartar
Well-Known Member
jmvizanko,
If you had researched this question you have found that the reason is easily understandable.
The Christian Greek Scriptures are, in many instances, the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures. Remember that the Jews do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied by many of the Hebrew Scriptures. They aslo do not believe that the Christian Greek Scriptures are inspired by their God, Jehovah. The Jews are still awaiting the comming of the dMessiah. They failed to understand the Hebrew Scriptures that told of the Messiah coming FIRST to give his life as the Lamb of God, JOHN 1:29, Matt 20:28, Eph 1:7,12,13, Acts 13:38,39 They thought that the Messiah was going to set up the Kingdom on his first appearance. Even the Jews that accepted Jesus as the Messiah, or Christ, failed to understand that Jesus was not going to set up his Kingdom in the first century, Luke:3:15, Luke 19:11-15, Notice that in the Illustratiuon that Jesus gave at Luke 19:12-27, is aprophecy about Jesus going away, then coming back. Almost the whole chapter of Isa 53 is a prophecy about Jesus suffering and giving his life for he Jews, first to removed them from the Law of sin and death, The Mosaic Law Covenant, Rom 6:23, 7:6, 8:2, Gal 3:10-14, and also for those of the nations, who would accept Jesus as the Christ,the Son of God, and obey him, Gal 2:16, John 15:7-10.
When the nation of Israel rejected Jesus and killed him, God took His blessing away from the Jews and blessed the Christians, who then became the New Nation that Jesus spoke about, Matt 22:42-44. Jesus informed the Jews at Matt 23:37,38 that their HOUSE, The Temple, was ABANDONED. This meant that God was no longer with the Jews.
Romans, the 11th chapted explains the process that all Jews had to fulfill, if they wanted to return to God's fold. The Bible tells us that only a remnant of the Jews would be saved, because they mostly rejected Jesus, Rom 9:2, 11:5. PaUl, at Rom 11:11 said that not all stumbled, remember the first disciples were Jews, the Apostles were Jews. Paul said that he would do anything to save at least SOME of his brethern, THE JEWS, Rom 9:1-8, 29 11:13,14. After the death of Jesus, ALL people had to be grafted onto the Garden Olive Tree spoken of at Rom 11:15-24.
The Bible shows that all of us are sinners and there is no distinction between the Jews and people of the nations, Rom 3:9, 29,30, Col 3:11.
The term JEW, in the Greek Scriptures means a Christian, a person who is a Jew on the INSIDE, not a physical Jew, Rom 2:28,29, 9:6-8.
The Jews refuse even today , after 2,000 years that Jesus was not the Christ. They forget that Jesus fulfilled scores of prophecies about the Christ. Theologists the world over realize that it was impossible for any man to fulfill these prophecies, Mathematically IMPOSSIBLE.
The Jews are going to be caught by surprise when Jesus comes as God's avenging warrior, instead of a lamb, 2Thess 1:6-9, Rev 19:11-16. These scriptures are speaking about Armageddon, Rev 16:16, Rev 19:11-21. Anyone not found in God's favor will end up in the Lake of Fire, Rev 20:14,15.
kejos
Active Member
That's digression, because a salvation 'rant' is precisely what the Bible is.
It's you!
Whoever you are. Adam is you.
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Thief
Rogue Theologian
jtartar
Well-Known Member
jmvizanko,
Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. All Jews knew what the Original Sin was.
Some today want to believe that the original sin was sex. This is silly, because God Himself, told Adam and Eve to multiply and fill the earth. I believe most people know that the way God made man and animals to procreate, was by the process of sexual relations, Gen 1:27,28.
Moses and the Israelites knew that the original sin was Adam and Eve disobeying God about eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Bad, Gen 2:17.
Remember, God had made everything that they needed for them to obey His mandate to fill the earth and subdue it. God made just one law for them, this so they could show that they appreciated what He had done for them. That was not too much to ask!! They rebelled against God, actually steeling from Him, something not belonging to them.
This was the original sin. This is the reason why mankind dies today. God made man to live forever, but when Adam rebelled, sin entered man, made him imperfect. This imperfection Adam passed on to all his relatives,US, so we all are dying, Rom 5:12.
The real fact is; we are not today dying because of Adam's sin. Remember, Jesus gave his life for us, this made people who put their faith in Jesus as PERFECT, PERPETUALLY, Heb 10:14. We really are dying because of the imperfection that all of us have inherited from Adam. Jesus died for all who put faith in him, so we today do not have to die, if we are living when Jesus comes again, to earth, Heb 2:9, 2Cor 5:14,15. Even though we are living in fearful times, there are many alive today who will NEVER die at all. Jesus was speaking about that time at John 11:21-27, Many of these will come out of the Great Tribulation, and live forever in a paradise earth, alone with billions of resurrected ones, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, Luke 23:43, Rev 7:14, Isa 45:18, Ps 37:29.
kejos
Active Member
It's about the adam that is born 255 times every minute.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Right. "Thou shalt not murder." That's clear...not. It's against the law to kill unlawfully? How is that helpful? That's probably the most important and least clear commandment I can think of. How could they make it more useless? Just to pick a random example out of the air. Would you like a few dozen more?
kejos
Active Member
It's helpful those who wish to remain alive. For those who do not, it could be a difficulty.
I haven't read the link yet, but in my understanding of the Norse concept of wyrd (very different from the original sin concept being discussed I will admit) one's ancestors actions are in part responsible for your nature. Mostly that is due to the effect of those ancestral actions...your parents actions (prior to your birth, and as they raised you) informed your character development (as did your choices and actions as an individual person), your grandparents actions informed your parents character (which in turn informed your character) etc. In short, one is today, effectively, the summation of the actions of all that influence you (yourself, your close friends, family, extended family etc).
Admittedly, this is very different from the concept of original sin, a concept I was raised with as a young southern baptist, and one of the numerous reasons I left that religion. The idea that I was doomed from birth because someone ate an apple (and/or because my parents had sex) was abhorrent. The idea that someone else can take responsibility for my {mistakes} actions also chafes.
kejos
Active Member
That doesn't really work, because people from almost identical backgrounds (and indeed, identical twins in identical backgrounds) can and do have very different characters and outcomes. It is of course generally true that one's family and local society is influential on one's character. It is not so much ancestral actions that matter, but long term influences of economics and society.
But the Bible takes account of this factor in saying that the sins of one generation last for three of four generations after them. This applies at a macro level, where whole nations indulge in folly and later pay the due price, and at family level, when, say, a head of a family drinks or gambles the family fortunes away, leaving chidren and grandchildren in difficulties.
But this is not original sin, which is not at all a Biblical teaching. Every person takes full responsibility for his or her own sin. That's because it is conscience that creates the guilt of sin. Nobody can be condemned for that which they had no responsibility.
Levite
Higher and Higher
The commandments are supposed to be clarified by further legislation and interpretation. "Thou shalt not murder" may be unclear, but so is "Nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Just as the Framers of the Constitution presumed and intended that their sparsely-worded charter would be interpreted by the system of courts and judges that it founds, and be expanded upon by the Congress and the governing bodies of the several States, so too the Torah presumes that its terse and often oblique laws will be interpreted by the system of judges that it founds, and will be expanded upon by the courts and other legislative authorities of the Jewish people through the ages.
They claim to be. Considering them to be so is a Christian belief, not an objective fact. The Hebrew Scriptures were written by Jews, for Jews, hundreds of years before Christianity. They have agendas that have nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity has taken them and interpreted them to suit Christian doctrines, which are, obviously, Christian and not Jewish.
There's no copyright on the Bible, anymore than on other great literature. Nobody was stopping Christians from doing what they did. Nobody is to stop me if I decide that Shakespeare's "Hamlet" is clearly a laugh-a-minute farce about yodelling lawn bowlers. That doesn't mean that my interpretation is actually what Shakespeare intended to mean.
Sure don't. We also don't believe that God's name is Jehovah. Though we do believe He's not just "our" God, He's the One and only God.
I'm pretty sure that the Jews understand their own Scriptures better than non-Jews do. I know that I, and most Jews in my acquaintance, would certainly never presume to interpret the religious meaning of Christian scripture. We would consider that to be unbelievably arrogant of ourselves....
Yeah. Or not. Could be that when Christians hit the afterlife, and they meet Jesus, they'll be surprised when he speaks in Aramaic and doesn't understand why all these non-Jews are interested in him.....
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
Please engage brain before posting. The commandment is addressed to the potential killer, not the victim. How is a commandment specifying that it is illegal to break the law remotely clear or helpful? Bonus question: Can you think of any more important subject than when it is prohibited to kill another person?
kejos
Active Member
They were written by Israelites for everyone. Anyone could be an Israelite, not just the children of Jacob. The Israelites were intended to be a beacon of righteousness for all with whom they came into contact. Incidentally, the New Testament was evidently largely written by Israelites, Jews.
Considering that to be so is a religious belief, not an objective fact.
If Jesus was the Christ, the Messiah, then Christians are the true Jews, the true Israelites, the children of Abraham. One can use the word 'obviously' with legitimacy after one has proved beyond doubt that Jesus was not the Messiah.
Probably- but who is actually a Jew? A Christian?
It may be that Christians are those who stand in direct line with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Joshua, David and Solomon- and that nobody else even comes close in spiritual terms.
But in any case, belief in original sin is no part of orthodox Biblical belief, whatever one may think of Jesus, and this issue is off topic.
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kejos
Active Member
Can this debate be kept civil?
If there is no such law, then killing is ok- it is not murder, and has no disincentive or remedy. Is that an acceptable situation?
Levite
Higher and Higher
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
What? What commandment? A commandment not to kill unlawfully is NOT CLEAR. That is my only point. You are claiming that the Bible is clear. It's not. A clear commandment would have given you some idea when killing is legal, and when it is not.
Autodidact
Intentionally Blank
I think there's a substantial difference. The point, the very core of a law is to tell you what is not legal. A law that says, "Don't do illegal things" doesn't even give you something to interpret. We may disagree as to what is cruel, and at least we have some idea, some guideline to work with. "Don't kill against the law" tells you nothing.
Also the framers set up a system for interpreting the Constitution, which the Tanakh also fails to do.
Finally, the Constitution is not a set of laws; it's a set of meta-laws, prohibiting Congress from passing certain laws. The laws themselves are required by the same Constitution to be more clear.
kejos
Active Member
Why is that the case? There is much more to Mosaic law about killing than 'Do not murder'.
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Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Awesome post, I fear that many will not understand the magnitude of what you are saying.