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The Devil

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Green Gaia, Oct 12, 2004.

?
  1. Is real and can possess people.

    9 vote(s)
    22.5%
  2. Is real and can directly influence human action, but can't possess people.

    2 vote(s)
    5.0%
  3. Is just a metaphor for the evil humans are capable of.

    14 vote(s)
    35.0%
  4. Is a dangerous idea that leads us to demonize other people.

    7 vote(s)
    17.5%
  5. Other, please explain.

    8 vote(s)
    20.0%
  1. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Not everyone who believes in a "God" believes in the concept of Satan, which I believe is a Christian concept.
     
  2. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    We have energies within us that we name. We can use these energies for good or evil. Your reaper dreams could be your naming an energy within you.
     
  3. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Now, why didn't you say that in my other relative thread?

    You can't use reaper "energy" for good, as he is evil.

    And PS: True what you said, Maize, but then that would make the bible a load of s**t.

    Man I can see a lynching of flaming coming my way.
     
  4. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    I won't tell
    We would except you if you followed beef jerky dancing ontop of a coke can. (those are the items next to me. hehe)

    We like to hear viewpoints from all.
     
  5. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    Religion:
    I won't tell
    You won't see flames but maybe disagreements. You must have never been exposed to a forum where all religious/philosophies are welcome.

    But do remember you are in the debate section of the site so you will be tested to the edge by others.
     
  6. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    Well, I wouldn't put it that way. But it's certainly true that a lot of people do not believe it is divinely inspired.
    We don't allow either to take place on this forum, even towards people begging for it.
     
  7. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Energy is energy you can choose to use it for good or evil. Your choice.
     
  8. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Dislike of a member may be, though.

    And no, I've been chucked out of so many religous forums it aint funny. All for having a belief.

    I am also Admin of another forum. seen alot worse go on there.
     
  9. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    Religion:
    I won't tell
    We like to keep it civilized here, we don't tolerate some things but we tolerate everyone's own beliefs no matter how bizarre they may seem to some.

    As long as those rules are followed and our TOS is followed then we won't ban anyone. :)
     
  10. SoulTYPE

    SoulTYPE Well-Known Member

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    Okay, before I go off to bed (it's like 5.30am), could we forget all this, and pretend I just signed up again? Goes for my Death Dream topic over the other section as well :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. FyreBrigidIce

    FyreBrigidIce Returning Noob

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    Religion:
    Eclectic Pagan
    SoulType,
    I am new to this forum as well and I have noticed that this is a very fair and open place to discuss, debate and learn. I used to participate in debates on MSN a few years back. I got tired of the drama of having everyone purposely trying to tick off everyone else. In today's society and with all the history we have seen, you would think that people would be more diverse and mature enough to discuss their differences without personal attacks. That may not happen everywhere for a long time but at least it can be done here.

    As to the question at hand, I do not beleive in the devil or Satan. I beleive there are negative energies that everyone has the choice of using to harm others or for personal selfish acts or they can choose to convert the negative energy into something positive. We must also remember that some people may do bad things on purpose or there may be medical reasons or an event in their life that has caused them to not know how to control their negative energies. To me Satan or the devil is a Christian concept made by man to gain control over mass populations. A very compelling man who was very literate to write about "supposed" events of Christianity. Maybe the events are true, maybe they are not. We probably will never know for sure. None of us were there to prove or disprove any theory about whether the Bible is truth. As I have seen said, I have my beleifs and everyone else has theirs. Life is too short to condmen others for not beleiving what you believe and I think other religion debate forums forget that.
    I am very glad that this is one is different and we can all state how we feel as long as we respect everyone else that posts.

    Brightest Blessings to everyone!!
    Brandy aka FyreBrigidIce:)
     
  12. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Where in the Bible does it say that Lucifer was sent to rule over Hell?
     
  13. Rex

    Rex Founder

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    Good question, I only found this:

    Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning °! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
     
  14. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    The Devil is the personification of our own arrogance - that part of us which would usurp God.

    But to be fair to the Devil:
    Angels, otoh, are the personification of our submissiveness - that part of us which would follow blindly.
     
  15. Colin_Admin

    Colin_Admin Member

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    i see most people agree in its just a metaphor
     
  16. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    That quote is the only reference to Lucifer in the canonical Bible. And most biblical scholars agree that it refers to the King of Babylon, not Satan/the Devil.

    I've heard that there are appocryphal texts that spell out Satan's fall. Was wondering if anyone here might know about them.
     
  17. croak

    croak Trickster

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    Muslims believe that Lucifer, Satan, Shaitan, Iblis, etc. was not an Angel, but a Jinni. The Jinn were created by Allah and are made from smokeless fire. Shaitan was present when Allah asked the Angels to prostrate to Adam, but but he was arrogant and refused to prostrate, boasting that he was made from fire, while Adam was made from clay. He asked Allah to allow him to decieve mankind, to show Him how untrustworthy and bad humans were. Allah accepted, saying he would live till the Day of Judgement.
    Jinn can possess people, but only rarely.

    Also, Angels cannot disobey Allah.
     
  18. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    Perhaps he was arrogant. Perhaps he was too devout. If I remember correctly, Iblis refused to bow to Adam, saying that he would only prostrate himself before God. In other words, he would recognize no other gods. It's certainly different from the Christian view of the story.
     
  19. _salam_

    _salam_ Member

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    I can't say I have ever heard this before, that is that Iblis wouln't bow to any other than God. I've always heard it as he was arrogant and believed that he was a better creation than Adam and therefore refused to bow down. Besides if Iblis was such a devout follower of God, that he wouldn't bow to any other, one would think that Iblis would certainly bow if God had given him a dirrect order to bow.
     
  20. lilithu

    lilithu The Devil's Advocate

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    It is admittedly a minority interpretation, put forth by Sufi mystics. The most famous would be al-Hallaj but also, al-Qozat. I learned it at different times from my instructors, William Chittick and Osman Bakar, who were both students of the mystic Seyyed Hossein Nasr. The Sufi path of love is to invert the traditional meanings of symbols in order to transcend them.

    As for why Iblis did not obey even when God gave him a direct order, Nasr says that Iblis loved God more then Iblis loved God's sovereignty. And while God punished Iblis for his disobedience, God also loved Iblis for his devotion. In some ways, it is a tragic love story. I don't expect orthodox Muslims to accept such interpretations. I throw it out there as an alternative interpretation. It is the one that I learned first, and the one that speaks to me.
     
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