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The Collective Messiah - Isaiah 53

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
I don't doubt for a minute that God could pull off a double fulfillment of the prophecy of both man and nation. Jesus died on the cross a terrible death after having been scourged. The nation of Israel died by the millions in the execution camps of the holocaust after being stripped and starved and beaten. Jesus rose from the dead. Israel as a nation arose out of the ashes of the holocaust.

The question is: Do you really want to bear the punishment for the worlds sins? And do you have a choice?

I always thought it was harsh that all the blood of the prophets was laid on Jerusalem but then the city was guilty of it wasn't it?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Muffled,

Neither do I doubt that God can do anything He pleases, but He has not done what you wish He did.

Jesus was not the only Jew to die on the cross a terrible death after having been scourged. That was a common practice among the Romans to first scourge in order to break down the will of the one to be crucified. And they did exactly that to thousands of Jews before, during and after Jesus' turn.

Now, that Jesus rose from the dead, the so-called NT evidences do not substantiate
the event.

Regarding bearing the punishment for the world's sin, what can I say? We have no choice. It has been determined since God promised Noah that no more general destruction would befall the world. The redeemer was about to arrive in the descendants of Abraham through Isaac.

Now, for the blood of the Prophets to be laid on Jerusalem, it's a misunderstanding or deliberate attempt to blame the Jews for the death of Jesus. The blood of the Prophets was laid upon those directly responsible for their death. We cannot generalize what an individual does. It doesn't work in that way with Judaism.

Ben:clap
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
How can an individual Messiah make sense, if after living his span of life on earth he will necessarily have to die?
Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation?


I do not understand how even among the Jewish People still some expect an individual Messiah
to come if he being a human being will have to die.


The only logical solution resides on the collective Messiah: The People of Israel. The People won't die out.
Hence, God's promise to David in I Kings 11:36 that Judah would stay forever as a Lamp
in Jerusalem. That's the permanent Jewish Messiah.


Ben
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
How can an individual Messiah make sense, if after living his span of life on earth he will necessarily have to die?
Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation?


I do not understand how even among the Jewish People still some expect an individual Messiah
to come if he being a human being will have to die.


The only logical solution resides on the collective Messiah: The People of Israel. The People won't die out.
Hence, God's promise to David in I Kings 11:36 that Judah would stay forever as a Lamp
in Jerusalem. That's the permanent Jewish Messiah.


Ben

So in a collective messiah, you guys are mediating to God for the rest of mankind right? Now if that is so and its not God Himself who manifested Himself in Jesus to be THE mediator then Samuel was a liar for saying this

1Sa 2:25 - If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?" But what Paul preached is in agreement with this verse

1Ti 2:5 -For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
and what you preach is contradictory to Samuel.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
So in a collective messiah, you guys are mediating to God for the rest of mankind right? Now if that is so and its not God Himself who manifested Himself in Jesus to be THE mediator then Samuel was a liar for saying this

1Sa 2:25 - If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?" But what Paul preached is in agreement with this verse

1Ti 2:5 -For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
and what you preach is contradictory to Samuel.

Yes sir, Israel, the collective Messiah is the mediator between God and the rest of Mankind. Between God and Israel there is no mediator. God, the only One God, whithout an equal is Israel only Redeemer. Read Isaiah 43:11; 46:5.

No, Samuel did not lie. You are the one who do not understand him. The sins of Israel against God are not like the sins of the world. Of the other nations God will make an end; but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. God has provided exiles for us to be purged of our uncleanness. Read Ezekiel 22:15.

What Paul preached was a Christology that he fabricated in order to explain two things: First, to explain how a dead man could still be the Messiah; and second, to
project his main purpose which was to hide the real truth about being himself the Messiah of Christianity.

Ben
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
Yes sir, Israel, the collective Messiah is the mediator between God and the rest of Mankind. Between God and Israel there is no mediator. God, the only One God, whithout an equal is Israel only Redeemer. Read Isaiah 43:11; 46:5.

No, Samuel did not lie. You are the one who do not understand him. The sins of Israel against God are not like the sins of the world. Of the other nations God will make an end; but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve. God has provided exiles for us to be purged of our uncleanness. Read Ezekiel 22:15.

What Paul preached was a Christology that he fabricated in order to explain two things: First, to explain how a dead man could still be the Messiah; and second, to
project his main purpose which was to hide the real truth about being himself the Messiah of Christianity.

Ben

HERESY AND BLASPHEMY. the gentiles are to pray to Isreal to mediate for the rest of mankind? Come on now

You are right the sins of Israel against God are not like the sins of the world---THEYRE WORSE! To know the Truth and reject it is what makes it worse, but then again ALL are guilty because to commit one sin is to commit them all.

Wow how little you understand. God will make a end to the other nations huh? But He says..

Ps 2:9 -Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Re 2:27 - And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Re 12:5 - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Re 19:15 - And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
You are so spiritually blind. Dont you know what nations symbolize? PEOPLE--not just collectly but indivdually! Why cant you see that?


God will make an end; but of Israel He will only chastise as we deserve.

See how you just cant see. God who is no respector of persons will put and end to the others but only chastise Israel? God will only chastise those who claim to know Him and the others who never knew Him He will annihilate? :thud:You are just as bad as those who believe God will burn most of mankind in hell!

What Paul preached was a Christology that he fabricated in order to explain two things: First, to explain how a dead man could still be the Messiah; and second, to
project his main purpose which was to hide the real truth about being himself the Messiah of Christianity

Paul made up Christology huh? That he made up all himself? I guess PETER was preaching something else in Acts 1, I guess Thomas calling Jesus Lord and My God was Pauls or his cronies?

Or even Peter again in Matt 16:13.....Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

You kill me.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member

I do not understand how even among the Jewish People still some expect an individual Messiah
to come if he being a human being will have to die.

two different possibilities come to mind...

1. He will live forever.
2. The Kingship will live on in his descendants, much like David and Solomon.
 

AK4

Well-Known Member
two different possibilities come to mind...

1. He will live forever.
2. The Kingship will live on in his descendants, much like David and Solomon.


And Jesus fulfills both. Its just that most Jews dont believe in the spiritual. The sadducces didnt believe in a resurrection

Mt 22:23 - That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.
Mr 12:18 - Then the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question.
Lu 20:27 - Some of the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Jesus with a question.
Ac 23:8 - (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.)
Now back then you had two sects, one that believe in spirits and the other that didnt. In other words one that didnt believe in life after death/ being raised to a spiritual being (Jesus) who could fulfill both the lineage of David and live forever and one that believe Davids descendants are fulfilling this. but how can the latter be --when is the last time Israel has had a king?

Is it a coincidence that there has been no temple, no king etc etc? :no:
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
And Jesus fulfills both. Its just that most Jews dont believe in the spiritual.
An all around ignorant statement.


Now back then you had two sects, one that believe in spirits and the other that didnt. In other words one that didnt believe in life after death/ being raised to a spiritual being (Jesus) who could fulfill both the lineage of David and live forever and one that believe Davids descendants are fulfilling this.
Ever consider that they do believe in spirits and resurrection, but that it didn't happen to Jesus?

but how can the latter be --when is the last time Israel has had a king?
Though David's descendants are not actually ruling over Israel today, they have always been the rightful heirs... and only a rightful heir will rule as king over Israel when the third temple is built.

Is it a coincidence that there has been no temple, no king etc etc? :no:


No. It's not a coincidence. You just don't understand Judaism.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
two different possibilities come to mind...

1. He will live forever.
2. The Kingship will live on in his descendants, much like David and Solomon.

But then again, are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Isaiah cals the
Messiah the Suffering Servant and not a dead one. It means that the Messiah does
not die. That's an added reason to justify his understanding that the Messiah is
collective. I mean Israel, the Jewish People, who will "never" perish.

Ben :confused:
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
But then again, are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? Isaiah cals the
Messiah the Suffering Servant and not a dead one. It means that the Messiah does
not die. That's an added reason to justify his understanding that the Messiah is
collective. I mean Israel, the Jewish People, who will "never" perish.

Ben :confused:
Ben Sweetie, see to the Christian Jesus is the Messiah and He is not dead to us. Could you explain to me how Jewish people view "faith"? Since Christians base their religion on faith I find this so difficult to understand as to why Jewish people don't accept Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah in all generations.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Ben Sweetie, see to the Christian Jesus is the Messiah and He is not dead to us. Could you explain to me how Jewish people view "faith"? Since Christians base their religion on faith I find this so difficult to understand as to why Jewish people don't accept Jesus. Jesus is the Messiah in all generations.

Faith to the Jewish people is seen more in terms of hope, which is quite different from faith. Faith is of the faithful; hope is of the hoped for.
I mean, if you have faith that something is to happen next year, and the year passes and nothing happened, you are to blame. Something wrong with your faith.
If you hope that something is to happen next year and it doesn't there is no problem; you can hope again. The problem is not with your ability to hope but with the thing hoped for. That's why nothing happens among us as a result of frustrating faith.


In 1844 there was a group of religious people who had computed the date for the return of Jesus from reading the book of Daniel, that seemed so real to them that
many sold their belongs and gave the proceeds to the poor. At the due day, they went to a certain valey - it was in America - and started praying and singing as the
moment approached. Their faith was so great that some would feel so elated as to get into moments of seizures. The time passed, next day too, and the day after.
A few committed suicide, a few left faith altogether, and the few left started a new religious sect called Seventh-Day Adventists. That's what frustrated faith produces.

If they had hoped that the prophecies of Daniel would lead to that end and had continued living their lives normally, nothing would have happened to them.

Remember the tragedy to the faithful of Jim Jones? The same thing. All as a result of faith. Hope, therefore, is the word. I hope that you hope that Jesus will return,
but please, don't put too much faith in it. I don't want anything bad to happen to you.

Ben :sad4:
 
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Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Benny Bear, the religions that you talked about, Jim Jones, David Koresh and several more religions are usually termed cults by most Christian denominations. They have just enough teaching from the Bible to entice people who do not study and are easily influenced by anything that promises them a happy ending. Of course most people who do not believe in God would say that is typical of the Christians also..:rolleyes:
I have hope based on the fact that my faith will sustain me. I had major surgery about 3 weeks ago and when it was first mentioned to me, I told the doctor no, I wasn't ready. I felt terrified about the whole situation. It took me about a month of prayer and requesting prayer from others to arrive at the decision that it was the right time. I felt such a calm assurance as the date arrived for the surgery. The words to a Psalm kept going through my mind. "I shall not die, but live and tell of the glory of the Lord". I woke up at night with this psalm on my mind. Needless to say, the surgery went fine, better than I could have even dreamed and the healing has been extremely fast. God didn't say I would never have to endure these things but that He would be with me. Faith works for me.
Thank you for your concern though. Look at the good things that has happened, we are now special friends and are being so kind toward each other, see God works in mysterious ways.....:D
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
This is relevant to the topic.

Galatians 3 (NIV)


Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Sons of God

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ben, I know your not a fan of Paul, but this would contradict your collective Suffering Servant theory.
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
Benny Bear, the religions that you talked about, Jim Jones, David Koresh and several more religions are usually termed cults by most Christian denominations. They have just enough teaching from the Bible to entice people who do not study and are easily influenced by anything that promises them a happy ending. Of course most people who do not believe in God would say that is typical of the Christians also..:rolleyes:
I have hope based on the fact that my faith will sustain me. I had major surgery about 3 weeks ago and when it was first mentioned to me, I told the doctor no, I wasn't ready. I felt terrified about the whole situation. It took me about a month of prayer and requesting prayer from others to arrive at the decision that it was the right time. I felt such a calm assurance as the date arrived for the surgery. The words to a Psalm kept going through my mind. "I shall not die, but live and tell of the glory of the Lord". I woke up at night with this psalm on my mind. Needless to say, the surgery went fine, better than I could have even dreamed and the healing has been extremely fast. God didn't say I would never have to endure these things but that He would be with me. Faith works for me.
Thank you for your concern though. Look at the good things that has happened, we are now special friends and are being so kind toward each other, see God works in mysterious ways.....:D


And more of God's blessings are prone to come. But in the meantime I wonder how bad things happen to good people. I mean, it was bad that you had to come to the need of surgery. But it is good that everything is fine. You have come out stronger out of it. And your faith... I mean, hope is also stronger. I don't like the word faith.
It's based on the faith of people that religious crooks take advantage of them. But don't you let anyone take advantage of you.

Ben:sad:
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
This is relevant to the topic.

Galatians 3 (NIV)


Faith or Observance of the Law

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
The Law and the Promise

15Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. 17What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Sons of God

26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Ben, I know your not a fan of Paul, but this would contradict your collective Suffering Servant theory.

This post of yours brings a lot of good points for discussion. But since I must live now for the next six hours, I would like to comment a little about the subject of seed versus seeds above.

Paul in Galatians 3:16 is doing nothing but corrupting the meaning of "seed" to suit his gospel. He even applies a false strategy in the use of "seeds" versus "seed" when
in the sense of progeny, "seeds" is absolutely wrong. "Seed," in the singular is the term used to mean descendants.

Ben :confused:
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
And more of God's blessings are prone to come. But in the meantime I wonder how bad things happen to good people. I mean, it was bad that you had to come to the need of surgery. But it is good that everything is fine. You have come out stronger out of it. And your faith... I mean, hope is also stronger. I don't like the word faith.
It's based on the faith of people that religious crooks take advantage of them. But don't you let anyone take advantage of you.

Ben:sad:
Ben you say you wonder how bad things happen to good people...I guess it's just the way life goes....Like good things happen to bad people...People cheat, lie, deceive and they appear to just get richer. Life does have a way of balancing itself, sooner or later the scales tip in the other direction. Everyday I wake up I feel like something good has happened and I'm thankful for another day, just so I can aggravate Ben ;) Just teasing you. Hope your day goes well. be careful and Blessings Benny Bear........
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
This post of yours brings a lot of good points for discussion. But since I must live now for the next six hours, I would like to comment a little about the subject of seed versus seeds above.

Paul in Galatians 3:16 is doing nothing but corrupting the meaning of "seed" to suit his gospel. He even applies a false strategy in the use of "seeds" versus "seed" when
in the sense of progeny, "seeds" is absolutely wrong. "Seed," in the singular is the term used to mean descendants.

Ben :confused:

Not in the English language.
 

Poisonshady313

Well-Known Member
Yes thats why i didnt generalise all Jews. And how do you figure it didnt happen to Jesus?


How do you figure it did? Because it is written in your "new testament"?

Your "new testament" is a book that means nothing to me. It is not the word of God.

The 24 books of the Tanach, or what you might call the "old testament", are what Jews consider the whole of their Holy Bible.

The gospels to me are like a badly written comic book that takes place in a real setting... kind of like the way Spiderman takes place in NYC.


When looking at Judaism through the lens of Christianity, you end up seeing something that isn't Judaism, which is why when Christians or poorly educated atheists talk about Judaism they often appear silly.

When you make assertions about what Jews believe or don't believe based on a book that Jews have no regard for... chances are those assertions are going to be wrong.
 
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