The Catholic Church and its iniquity

[Zigzangle]

The Catholic church has done a lot of damage with its doctrines, purgatory, hell-fire, not permitting contraception etc. Whilst of course not all priests were paedophiles a significant number are/were. The Catholic Church covered up their crimes rather than handing them over to the police! Then there were the disgusting Magdalene Laundries where unmarried pregnant girls were sent to be abused by the nuns running them. Quite a number of people who have attended Catholic schools talk of the cruelty they received at the hands of those in charge.

Other faiths are far from blameless either, but the Catholic Church seems to be the leader of the pack where abuse is concerned.

Do present day Catholics feel any unease about the crimes of the past, and some which continue to this day?

 

[Sunstone]

Other faiths are far from blameless either, but the Catholic Church seems to be the leader of the pack where abuse is concerned.

I think the perception the Catholic Church is the "leader of the pack" is most likely due more to the publicity its abuses have received than to any real leadership in abuse. There is an insurance company in a town a few miles south of me that specializes in one, and only one, kind of insurance: It insures Protestant congregations in the US against the possibility that their church might be sued due to one of their pastors sexually abusing someone. According to my local newspaper, the company receives an average of eight claims a week. And of course, those claims are just from congregations the company insures, and the company certainly does not insure every Protestant congregation in the US. For that and several other reasons, I'm not at all sure the Catholic Church is the leader in abuses, if measured on a fair, apples to apples scale.

To me, the abuses and cover ups of the Church are most likely evidence that the Church is no more moral than most large organizations, whether secular or religious. The notion that clergy -- Catholic or otherwise -- should be accorded some kind of automatic status as especially moral people merely by virtue of their being clergy strikes me as nonsensical in light of the abuses and cover ups. And just as nonsensical to me is the notion that religious institutions, such as the Catholic Church, should be seen as in any way exceptionally moral simply because they are religious institutions.

 

[Augustus]

Whilst of course not all priests were paedophiles a significant number are/were.

I'm unaware of any evidence that there were more paedophiles in the clergy percentage wise, as compared to the general population. When you have a tens of thousands of priests, you are guaranteed a fair number of paedophiles.

The Catholic Church covered up their crimes rather than handing them over to the police!

That there are paedophile priests is beyond the control of the church, absent divine intervention it must necessarily happen by probabilities alone.

The cover ups were the real disgrace.

 

[Shiranui117]

The Catholic church has done a lot of damage with its doctrines, purgatory, hell-fire, not permitting contraception etc. Whilst of course not all priests were paedophiles a significant number are/were. The Catholic Church covered up their crimes rather than handing them over to the police! Then there were the disgusting Magdalene Laundries where unmarried pregnant girls were sent to be abused by the nuns running them. Quite a number of people who have attended Catholic schools talk of the cruelty they received at the hands of those in charge.

Other faiths are far from blameless either, but the Catholic Church seems to be the leader of the pack where abuse is concerned.

Do present day Catholics feel any unease about the crimes of the past, and some which continue to this day?

I'm not happy with it, but (surprise, surprise!) Catholics aren't perfect people. Should this stuff have happened? By no means. Should measures and people have been in place to stop it? Absolutely. it definitely disillusions a lot of people, and I've seen a great many leave the Church for it. I've slowly been growing distant from the Church for other reasons, and I understand the frustration, but something like this alone wouldn't make me leave. If abuse was the normal order of the day for the Church, then yes I'd leave in a heartbeat. As it is, however, this is simply the work of some messed up individuals who slipped through the cracks and the Church had a knee-jerk panic reaction to sweep the issue under the rug, which she has since owned up to repeatedly.

 

[ThreeAngels]

The Catholic church is drunken with the blood of the saints and martyrs of Jesus. During the time of her supremacy she slew 50 million saints.

 

[ThreeAngels]

The Romish church is giving the wine of Babylon, the false doctrines of Sunday sacredness and immortality of the soul, to the kings of the earth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For that and several other reasons, I'm not at all sure the Catholic Church is the leader in abuses, if measured on a fair, apples to apples scale.

I see the crimes of the Catholic Church as more about the problems with handing over power to religion specifically and not with Catholic priests being any more likely to be abusers than ministers of other denominations.

When other denominations have been given power without proper oversight, horrendous things have happened. For instance, here in Canada, the Anglican Church and the United Church - both liberal Protestant churches - have been implicated in our aboriginal residential school scandal right alongside the Catholic Church.

Where I see the Catholic Church as different than other denominations is in two ways:

- it's much more heirarchical than many other groups, and individual churches are less dependent. The Vatican or a diocese can control an individual parish much more than, say, the Southern Baptist Convention.

- it has much more social power and political influence than other denominations. The Catholic Church is still the official religion of many countries.

Both of these factors lend themselves to magnifying the effects of abuse when it does happen.

To me, the abuses and cover ups of the Church are most likely evidence that the Church is no more moral than most large organizations, whether secular or religious.
The notion that clergy -- Catholic or otherwise -- should be accorded some kind of automatic status as especially moral people merely by virtue of their being clergy strikes me as nonsensical in light of the abuses and cover ups. And just as nonsensical to me is the notion that religious institutions, such as the Catholic Church, should be seen as in any way exceptionally moral simply because they are religious institutions.

I agree... and it was that sort of thinking that led to many of the scandals plaguing the Catholic Church. It boggled my mind when I heard about some of the things that the Ryan Report uncovered, such as police just handing child abuse files over to the local bishop so that he could investigate and handle the matter internally. Excessive deference and trust has been a huge part of the problem.

After the Bhopal disaster, India effectively kicked Union Carbide out of the country. But in Spain and Ireland, the Catholic Church still rests relatively easy despite its history of industrial-scale human trafficking and slavery in those countries.

 

[metis]

About 15 years ago I ran across a study that indicated that pedophilia was just as common amongst the Protestant clergy as it was amongst the Catholic clergy. I'll see if I can find that study later today.

So, why do so many people associate this with the RCC? Largely because it is a very visible church, plus there indeed was a serious problem with the pedophile priests all too often not being removed but just being moved to a different location.

To its credit, the RCC has apologized and made changes, albeit all too slowly imo, and it would be interesting to see if the Protestant churches are doing the same thing. I certainly hope so.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, why do so many people associate this with the RCC? Largely because it is a very visible church, plus there indeed was a serious problem with the pedophile priests all too often not being removed but just being moved to a different location.

There's another difference with the Catholic Church, IMO: it seems to me that it has not only a problem with individual pedophiles (at roughly the same percentage as other groups) but also that it has had a number of cases that have involved systemic abuse or pedophile rings in a way that - AFAICT - generally doesn't happen in other groups.

For instance, I remember the news when the Mount Cashel scandal was first coming to light:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage

To its credit, the RCC has apologized and made changes, albeit all too slowly imo, and it would be interesting to see if the Protestant churches are doing the same thing. I certainly hope so.

Here's the thing, though:

I recognize that there are elements in the Catholic Church that are very strongly anti-abuse. When the Toronto Archdiocese announced its anti-abuse policy (maybe a decade ago now?), I thought it was very proactive and progressive.

... but then the secret letter from the Vatican to the Irish bishops was leaked, where the Vatican ordered them not to enforce the Irish anti-abuse policy - which was very similar to the Toronto policy - on the grounds that provisions like mandatory reporting of abuse claims to the police violated canon law.

The Irish church operated for years with a policy on the books that looked good, but that they were secretly forbidden from actually following. What secret orders will we find out about decades from now? I have no idea... but in the meantime, I have no trust whatsoever that any Catholic church or diocese will be able to take proper steps to prevent child abuse.

 

[metis]

There's another difference with the Catholic Church, IMO: it seems to me that it has not only a problem with individual pedophiles (at roughly the same percentage as other groups) but also that it has had a number of cases that have involved systemic abuse or pedophile rings in a way that - AFAICT - generally doesn't happen in other groups.

For instance, I remember the news when the Mount Cashel scandal was first coming to light:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Cashel_Orphanage


Here's the thing, though:

I recognize that there are elements in the Catholic Church that are very strongly anti-abuse. When the Toronto Archdiocese announced its anti-abuse policy (maybe a decade ago now?), I thought it was very proactive and progressive.

... but then the secret letter from the Vatican to the Irish bishops was leaked, where the Vatican ordered them not to enforce the Irish anti-abuse policy - which was very similar to the Toronto policy - on the grounds that provisions like mandatory reporting of abuse claims to the police violated canon law.

The Irish church operated for years with a policy on the books that looked good, but that they were secretly forbidden from actually following. What secret orders will we find out about decades from now? I have no idea... but in the meantime, I have no trust whatsoever that any Catholic church or diocese will be able to take proper steps to prevent child abuse.

But there has been a change, and it has been announced at different levels from the Pope on down.

BTW, our youngest daughter was sexually molested (breasts fondled) by the choir director at my wife's Catholic church around 1980, and we went to the priest about this, and the director was removed, but then he was sent to a Catholic school! We could not press criminal charges because it was all hearsay because there were no witnesses, but a couple of other girls had also complained as well, so the priest believed us but no charges were filed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

But there has been a change, and it has been announced at different levels from the Pope on down.

The issue is that I'm not in a position to tell real policy from lip-service, and I'm not inclined to trust them. When pedophile priests start getting turned over to the police and a few decades go by without an abuse scandal, I might change my mind.

BTW, our youngest daughter was sexually molested (breasts fondled) by the choir director at my wife's Catholic church around 1980, and we went to the priest about this, and the director was removed, but then he was sent to a Catholic school! We could not press criminal charges because it was all hearsay because there were no witnesses, but a couple of other girls had also complained as well, so the priest believed us but no charges were filed.

I'm sorry she went through that.

One of the priests at my ex-wife's church was being sued civilly over an abuse case from several decades before in another diocese. He died before the case went to trial; the congregation had no idea about the abuse accusation. I only found out because I decided to google the parish priests after a priest who had served at my ex's parish was convicted of abuse at the affiliated boys' private school.