The Buddha Explains Universal Mind

[atanu]

Perhaps an ambiguity between perceiving nothing or not perceiving anything. (Would that constitute an absence of jnana? Would that establish jnana being inherent in the void?)

If you permit, I will begin from experience of deep sleep, because it alone can give us a hint.

In deep sleep there is no experience of world, self, or time. It is characterised by absolute lack of any desire. But surely a connecting consciousness exists, else how will one know that one slept blissfully? Scriptures say that nothing is known from within deep sleep because in deep sleep consciousness is non dual, without any contrast, without a second person, without a second sound, without a second smell, without a second taste. Being homogeneous and non dual, nothing is perceived, except some bit of memory of bliss. This state is called pure dense prajnana. This is ghanashyam -- the dense dark Krishna.

In highest state of meditation, with absolute still mind, the objectless form of consciousness (similar to deep sleep consciousness) is experienced while fully awake in waking state. The same waking state is full of forms as soon as mind moves.

So, it is stated that what is form is formless and vice versa. These are two views of the same mind/reality. Formless when mind is still. Full of forms when the mind moves.

Abidance in the objectless prajna consciousness may (or may not) make one equal to and see like avalokitesvara.

(This is my understanding engendered through some experiences and contemplation. And this is only an approximate rendering in word. YMMV. )

 

[atanu]

I'm curious as well how it's arrived at although I suspect It's more a cognitive religious belief than anything experience demonstrates.

Have you finished experiencing? I honestly do not think so. The following is a translation of a passage of Heart Sutra.

Therefore, in the Void There Are No Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness."

If in the void there is no consciousness, how the void is being experienced?

I note that vijnana is one of the five aggregates, which is translated here as 'consciousness'. There is another aspect of jnana (knowledge), which is prajnana. The same Heart sutra also says:

"THE BUDDHAS OF THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE, BY
RELYING ON PRAJNA PARAMITA HAVE ATTAINED SUPREME ENLIGHTENMENT."

So, what is prajna paramita?

 

[atanu]

I'm not sure how such a view of consciousness beyond the aggregates was extrapolated from the Heart Sutra. Nor of a consciousness that it even points to, other than that the nature of all phenomina being empty by which consciousness is inclusive, "cosmic" or not. The Heart Sutra addresses emptiness. Ring a bell.

Buddhism in a ding.

Have you experienced the agggregate free and thus vijnana free shunyata? If you have, then by what means? Is any experience possible without consciousness?

The confusion is due to translation of vijnana into consciousness and also due to ignoring the word prajnana altogether.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Have you finished experiencing? I honestly do not think so. The following is a translation of a passage of Heart Sutra.

Therefore, in the Void There Are No Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness."

If in the void there is no consciousness, how the void is being experienced?

I note that vijnana is one of the five aggregates, which is translated here as 'consciousness'. There is another aspect of jnana (knowledge), which is prajnana. The same Heart sutra also says:

"THE BUDDHAS OF THE PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE, BY
RELYING ON PRAJNA PARAMITA HAVE ATTAINED SUPREME ENLIGHTENMENT."

So, what is prajna paramita?

Try ringing a bell. Literally. If you don't get it, try again and again and again and again until you do.

No words for you this time around.

Gassho

 

[Twilight Hue]

Have you experienced the agggregate free and thus vijnana free shunyata? If you have, then by what means? Is any experience possible without consciousness?

The confusion is due to translation of vijnana into consciousness and also due to ignoring the word prajnana altogether.

All beings everywhere have already experienced pure sunyata probably just never bothered to notice, unless it comes out of the woodwork. I dunno.

It's seems your hopelessly stuck now. Bummer. Being your apparently lacking of having experienced the realm of unconciousness.

Good news though.

You clearly survived the transition long enough to ask me the question, "Is any experience possible without consciousness?"

If you like, look at a Zen circle painting. Just wanted to mention here.

You just answered this question yourself better than any of my words ever can. But I'll use words anyway just for the hell of it, and give you a resounding yes.

Definitely yes.

 

[godnotgod]

But not for anyone else. I'm still waiting for a coherent definition of "Cosmic Consciousness" and your description of "universal view".

I see. You want a nice, neat kind of Reality in a box. One that your rational mind can sink its teeth into. No such animal. All I can really tell you is that it's NO-SELF VIEW.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Please, make it stop, I can't take any more of the pointing fingers!!

 

[godnotgod]

Certainly nothing to do with the muddled new-age nonsense that you're preaching.

OK. Then what is it, Spiny? What is the taste of the Infinite?

 

[godnotgod]

From this it sounds like CC is the experience of abandoning self view, and not some kind of consciousness which "permeates" the universe.

And yet above you say: "If you understood that everything is consciousness....", which seems to contradict this.

So which is it? A proper definition or explanation of CC is still needed

I already told you, Spiny,

"In a nutshell, CC is the realization of oneness with the universe, rather than identifying with the limited self known as 'I', which sees the universe as some 'other'."

but you want to go dual on me. The negation of self-view and CC are one and the same experience, that is to say, if you have truly negated self-view without retention of residue.

 

[atanu]

All beings everywhere have already experienced pure sunyata .....

Yes. Okay. But I am referring to unceasing conscious experience of sunyata, when there is no more rising and falling and coming and going . As in:

"Sariputra, the Characteristics of the
Voidness of All Dharmas
Are Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing."

It's seems your hopelessly stuck now. Bummer. Being your apparently lacking of having experienced the realm of unconciousness.

Your use of word such as 'bummer' etc. is very civil and very conducive to discussion indeed.

What is your experience of unconsciousness? If you experience 'unconsciousness' in the above cited manner, you are unceasingly conscious.

If you are unconscious and then again conscious, in cycles, and the experience of 'unconscious' is just a memory (like the memory of sleep or the memory of ding) then it is not the sunyata experience described in the Heart Sutra.

Can I request you to employ civil vocabulary please.

 

[atanu]

I already told you, Spiny,

"In a nutshell, CC is the realization of oneness with the universe, rather than identifying with the limited self known as 'I', which sees the universe as some 'other'."

but you want to go dual on me. The negation of self-view and CC are one and the same experience, that is to say, if you have truly negated self-view without retention of residue.

My humble submission.

Cosmic consciousness is still consciousness of form, an aggregate. What name would you give to the following awareness as described in Bahiya sutra:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Yes. Okay. But I am referring to unceasing conscious experience of sunyata, when there is no more rising and falling and coming and going . As in:

"Sariputra, the Characteristics of the
Voidness of All Dharmas
Are Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing."




Your use of word such as 'bummer' etc. is very civil and very conducive to discussion indeed.

What is your experience of unconsciousness? If you experience 'unconsciousness' in the above cited manner, you are unceasingly conscious.

If you are unconscious and then again conscious, in cycles, and the experience of 'unconscious' is just a memory (like the memory of sleep or the memory of ding) then it is not the sunyata experience described in the Heart Sutra.

Can I request you to employ civil vocabulary please.

Keep ringing bells.

 

[atanu]

Keep ringing bells.

Thanks. But that is not my path and not required. A silent om is more effective. But thanks.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

My humble submission.

Cosmic consciousness is still consciousness of form, an aggregate.

Seen with true vision, form isn't simply form, because form depends on mind. And mind isn't simply mind, because
mind depends on form. Mind and form create and negate each other. That which exists,
exists in relation to that which doesn't exist. And that which doesn't exist doesn't exist in
relation to that which exists. This is true vision. By means of such vision nothing is seen and
nothing is not seen. Such vision reaches throughout the ten directions without seeing:
because nothing is seen: because not seeing is seen: because seeing isn't seeing. What
mortals see are delusions. True vision is detached from seeing.

- Bodhidharma - Wake Up Sermon.....

 

[Twilight Hue]

Further evasion. OK, that confirms it for me, you really are just spouting BS with no genuine experience behind it.

Not to mention the groovy metaphysical church services.

 

[godnotgod]

My humble submission.

Cosmic consciousness is still consciousness of form, an aggregate. What name would you give to the following awareness as described in Bahiya sutra:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

I would have to say it is Pure Consciousness without any object of consciousness. It is the state of the Unborn.

Because the eye gazes but can catch no glimpse of it,
It is called elusive.
Because the ear listens but cannot hear it,
It is called the rarefied.
Because the hand feels for it but cannot find it,
It is called the infinitesimal.
These three, because they cannot be further scrutinized,
Blend into one,
Its rising brings no light;
Its sinking, no darkness.
Endless the series of things without name
On the way back to where there is nothing.
They are called shapeless shapes;
Forms without form;
Are called vague semblance.
Go towards them, and you can see no front;
Go after them, and you see no rear.
Yet by seizing on the Way that was
You can ride the things that are now.
For to know what once there was, in the Beginning,
This is called the essence of the Way.

Tao te Ching, Ch. 14, Waley

Tao Te Ching, English by Arthur Waley - Terebess Asia Online (TAO)

 

[Rick O'Shez]

If in the void there is no consciousness, how the void is being experienced?
So, what is prajna paramita?

Clearly there is consciousness in the "void", because without consciousness there would be no experience of anything. This supports the idea that sunyata is a realisation of conditionality, not another dimension where the aggregates "disappear" completely.

And prajna paramita is the perfection of wisdom, isn't it? I would view prajna as a state of mind rather than a type of consciousness.

You seem to be proposing different types of consciousness, but in the suttas consciousness looks like a basic function of cognition. To put it another way, I look at Buddhist practice as transforming the mind, not transforming consciousness.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What name would you give to the following awareness as described in Bahiya sutra:

Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.

To me this Bahiya Sutta passage looks similar to the Heart Sutra, but what's your take on it?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Is it that we are experiencing the totality of the universe, or is the totality of the universe experiencing itself as us?

Neither. But now you seem to be back on the whole universe being conscious thing, it's like watching a child in a sweet shop.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Neither. But now you seem to be back on the whole universe being conscious thing, it's like watching a child in a sweet shop.

I guess a micro-Spiny at the cellular level would be telling the other cells in his body that they are stupid for believing the whole body in which they live is alive and conscious....