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The Big Bang and Evolution

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I suppose that it is somehow POSSIBLE that you could calculate how long the universe took to form without even being aware of about 23% of the universe, but it would be highly IMPROBABLE. That's like me claiming I can calculate how long it will take to erect a skyscraper, even though I don't actually know how many stories it will have. If I claim that I can you'd be wise to be very skeptical.

Since the universe is still expanding, can you say it is completely formed? I'm sure there is more than 23% of the universe mankind does not know about. On the other hand one can use math on the expansion rate and determine how long the expansion has been going on. One can use math and statistics to determine how long a given number of particles colliding will randomly come up with anything substantial. Sure, it's not perfect. It might just be close. There are ways beyond beliefs.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Agreed. :D

At some point, a person has to say, "Fish, or Cut Bait". ::)

At some point, we have to assume that our eyeballs report more or less what is Real. Or in some cases, our ears.

Many have postulated that we may be stuck in some incredibly realistic simulation-- but there is no real way to determine if we are (or not), so we may as well behave as if we are not, and that reality is real.

Finally? The Scientific Method has a very long, and successful track record.

In all the history of the planet, nobody has ever said, "Oh! We were Wrong! The scientific method did not work-- and it was this <insert religious book here> book that had it right-- it was magic after all!"

Not once.

That is why I say Science will discover God before Religion ever will. As I see it, religion discovers very little, they say they know it all and do not correct the errors. It's not a good combination.

So often when people talk of God, it's the emotional part. Anyone who can create the universe and everything we see has to have a great intellectual part as well. Scientists are walking straight toward that. As I see it, that is a winning combination.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
That is why I say Science will discover God before Religion ever will. As I see it, religion discovers very little, they say they know it all and do not correct the errors. It's not a good combination.

Christians have already discover God and we did it without science. What errors do we need to correct?

So often when people talk of God, it's the emotional part. Anyone who can create the universe and everything we see has to have a great intellectual part as well. Scientists are walking straight toward that. As I see it, that is a winning combination.

If you want me to, I will save you a good seat until you get there. ;)
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Christians have already discover God and we did it without science. What errors do we need to correct?

Funny thing: that is what followers of THOR said.

Funny thing: that is what followers of ODIN said.

Funny thing: that is what the Druids of Old said.

Funny thing: that is what followers of the Astec gods said.

Funny thing.......

NONE CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION: prove it.
 

QuestioningMind

Well-Known Member
Since the universe is still expanding, can you say it is completely formed? I'm sure there is more than 23% of the universe mankind does not know about. On the other hand one can use math on the expansion rate and determine how long the expansion has been going on. One can use math and statistics to determine how long a given number of particles colliding will randomly come up with anything substantial. Sure, it's not perfect. It might just be close. There are ways beyond beliefs.

Oh absolutely more than 23%, I was simply pointing out the Dark Matter portion of the universe that we're still ignorant about. Math and statistic CAN make accurate determinations, but the more unknown variables involved the less accurate any such calculations are going to be. When well over 23% of your variables are based upon nothing but wild guesses your calculations become nothing more than wild guesses as well.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
Christians have already discover God and we did it without science. What errors do we need to correct?



If you want me to, I will save you a good seat until you get there. ;)


Is this not your EGO talking? Many have memorized their holy book with the assumption that it comes from God, however this stems from accepting rather than questioning. If you can find nothing about your holy book to question then that just confirms you blindly accept it for truth.

Science discoveries often do take religion by surprise. Investigate why the Christian church was going to fry Galileo at the stake. There was a passage in the bible which the church stated that the heavens revolve around the Earth. To save his own life, Galileo denounced that the Earth revolved around the sun even though his telescope showed it does. In time, the truth did come out. The church swept that under the carpet.

If God exists then God can be found. As I see it, if you really knew God,you could not help but see that religions are mankind's version of what they think God should be. The petty things so many value only shows that they do not know God at all.

Science and those who work at true Discovery will walk the believers to the Real truth in time. You might be waiting, however I do not see you where you BELIEVE you are.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Funny thing: that is what followers of THOR said.

Funny thing: that is what followers of ODIN said.

Funny thing: that is what the Druids of Old said.

Funny thing: that is what followers of the Astec gods said.

Funny thing.......

NONE CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION: prove it.

Funny thing the skeptics say there is not God but can't prove it.

Funny think the atheist say their is not evidence for God but can't see the evidence.

Funny thing the agnostics don't believe in God but can't prove it.

If you answer my question, I will answer yours.


The heavens are telling of the glory of God
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Is this not your EGO talking? Many have memorized their holy book with the assumption that it comes from God, however this stems from accepting rather than questioning. If you can find nothing about your holy book to question then that just confirms you blindly accept it for truth.

I do not accept it blindly, I accept it through study and believing it is all from God. There are still things in it I don't understand, but I account that to my lack of understanding.

Science discoveries often do take religion by surprise. Investigate why the Christian church was going to fry Galileo at the stake. There was a passage in the bible which the church stated that the heavens revolve around the Earth. To save his own life, Galileo denounced that the Earth revolved around the sun even though his telescope showed it does. In time, the truth did come out. The church swept that under the carpet.

That example is irrelevant to Christianity. The Bible does not say what Galileo said. The church was wrong, not the Bible.

If God exists then God can be found. As I see it, if you really knew God,you could not help but see that religions are mankind's version of what they think God should be. The petty things so many value only shows that they do not know God at all.

What qualified you to be the final authority on what is petty?

Science and those who work at true Discovery will walk the believers to the Real truth in time. You might be waiting, however I do not see you where you BELIEVE you are.

Science will not lead anyone to the truth about Christianity or about God. You are judging me out of your ignorance. As you are not the final authority on what is petty, you are less of an authority on anyone's spiritual condition.
 

Bird123

Well-Known Member
I do not accept it blindly, I accept it through study and believing it is all from God. There are still things in it I don't understand, but I account that to my lack of understanding.



That example is irrelevant to Christianity. The Bible does not say what Galileo said. The church was wrong, not the Bible.



What qualified you to be the final authority on what is petty?



Science will not lead anyone to the truth about Christianity or about God. You are judging me out of your ignorance. As you are not the final authority on what is petty, you are less of an authority on anyone's spiritual condition.


People see what they want to see based on what they want to be true rather than what actually is.

To accept even based on study does not mean one questions. To question is the start on the journey to discovery. Is discovery really what you are after? I think not.

If you tell me that there is nothing in your holy book that you disagree with, what does that say about you?? Would you be so accepting if you were not intimidated by your belief that the holy book came from God? Haven't you been taught your holy book comes from God since you were a small child? Haven't you been taught to value beliefs above all else? Has religion corrupted your view which makes you bias on your view of Truth??

You can not discount Galileo. Christianity consists of people. Years ago, I actually read the passage that led people to say everything revolved around the Earth and that is what it said. I must admit I am hard pressed to find that passage today. It somehow is gone. People do their best to shape the world as they want it to be rather than what actually is.

So you need an authority on petty? One needs no authority on knowledge. Do you need others to tell you what is right? When one understands all sides, intelligence will make all the right choices.

Can you really say your holy book comes from a Higher Level and has nothing petty in it?

Isn't it petty to fry your kids for eternity based on beliefs or their actions? Isn't the Higher Road to educate your children through any problem? Isn't mankind the one who wants to destroy that which is not fixed easily?

Isn't Blame, Condemnation and Punishment petty? Aren't solutions more important? Aren't coercing and intimidating petty? If you don't believe, you will fry has been said to me on more than one occasion. Isn't trying to control others to one way of thinking petty? Diversity is a Strength. As I see it God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. How narrow would mankind be with just one view? The list goes on and on.

For God to be able to create all we see, God has to be very very smart. I also see God with such Intelligence and at a much Higher Level of thinking than mankind. Look from a neutral view. Is that holy book really from God with all those petty things mankind holds so dear incorporated within it?

Yes, if one really searches for the Real Truth, I do not believe the questions can ever stop. With this in mind, Accepting is not a good word.

I do not want anyone to even accept what I say. As I see it, Discovery of Real Truth and Knowledge is within the reach of everyone. All the secrets of the universe stare us in the face. On the other hand, Discovery does take Work. It's so much easier to believe and accept, however what do you really have when it's done?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That example is irrelevant to Christianity. The Bible does not say what Galileo said. The church was wrong, not the Bible.

So you see the church as no part of Christianity? The church is the nebulous abstraction that administers and promulgates the religion. What it does and says trumps the Bible wherever they are not the same.

The Christian wants to defend his religion from criticisms of its excesses, and frequently attempts to do so as you have done - point to some rosy scriptures and disavow how extensively they are ignored.

But the rest of us don't really care about the rosy words at all if they aren't manifest in the believers.

Consider the Center for Medical Progress' recent assault on Planned Parenthood using undercover operatives, eventually fomented a killing spree in one of the clinics by a Robert Lewis Dear. He was agitated by rhetoric about murdering babies to sell their parts for profit, a libelous depiction of what was actually happening. You might say that that wasn't biblical because no scripture supports that position.

In fact, no New Testament scripture addresses abortion, and the Old Testament doesn't support the modern anti-abortion movement either. Old Testament scripture considers abortion a loss of property if nobody outside the womb is harmed, and recognizes the fetus not as a life, but as property, since a fine compensates for the loss of a fetus:

"And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." - Exodus 21:22-25

Her fruit departing is consistent with no harm as long as the mother is not harmed, and the penalty is monetary compensation. You could even call that killing fetuses and harvesting their parts for profit, couldn't you?

Yet the church has erected this huge anti-abortion apparatus that has been chipping away in this area since 1973's Roe v. Wade ruling.

You would say that that has is "irrelevant to Christianity." I would say that that IS Christianity. Scripture is what's irrelevant. So once again, Christianity is what it does, not what it says about itself or its scriptures when either of those doesn't conform with the news.

You don't have to look at those events in the news if you choose to ignore them, but that's not how people with no interest in scrubbing clean and whitewashing Christianity from its actions view it, and arguments like yours above won't change that.
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Funny thing the skeptics say there is not God but can't prove it.

FALSE. You show me your definition of "god"? And I will show you why that is an impossible being.

Funny think the atheist say their is not evidence for God but can't see the evidence.

FALSE. What you call "evidence" isn't actually evidence. "Because I Say So" isn't evidence.

Funny thing the agnostics don't believe in God but can't prove it.

FALSE. You define what you mean by "god" and we will prove it bogus.

If you answer my question, I will answer yours.

LIAR. I asked you first. I have YET to see an actual answer. "Because I said So" isn't an answer.

The heavens are telling of the glory of God

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of The Flying Spaghetti Monster-- proof is that all the planets look like meatballs. Proof is that intestines reflect the Glory Of FSM.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of THOR.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of SET.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of RAVEN.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of QUATZEQUATL.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of JuJu the Junebug God, who only comes around once every 1000 years.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
So you see the church as no part of Christianity? The church is the nebulous abstraction that administers and promulgates the religion. What it does and says trumps the Bible wherever they are not the same.
You didn't get those ideas from me.

The Christian wants to defend his religion from criticisms of its excesses, and frequently attempts to do so as you have done - point to some rosy scriptures and disavow how extensively they are ignored.

I have not defended the church against its excesses. I have not pointed to some rosy Scriptures. You need some lessons on reading between the lines.

But the rest of us don't really care about the rosy words at all if they aren't manifest in the believers.

You are not qualified to know what is manifest in believers.

Consider the Center for Medical Progress' recent assault on Planned Parenthood using undercover operatives, eventually fomented a killing spree in one of the clinics by a Robert Lewis Dear. He was agitated by rhetoric about murdering babies to sell their parts for profit, a libelous depiction of what was actually happening. You might say that that wasn't biblical because no scripture supports that position.

Right forget about the illegal and horrible actions of planned parenthood, focus on the ONE ILLEGAL action of ONE person who was not following the teachings of Christianity. As usual, you lefties always get it backwards. I don't remember when you criticized the reporting of the sexual abuse of some Catholic priests. It seems you have a double standard. Another characteristic of you lefties.

In fact, no New Testament scripture addresses abortion, and the Old Testament doesn't support the modern anti-abortion movement either. Old Testament scripture considers abortion a loss of property if nobody outside the womb is harmed, and recognizes the fetus not as a life, but as property, since a fine compensates for the loss of a fetus:

It does if you know how to read them---Thou shall not murder. Is you intellectual level not high enough to understand those 4 words. Is your moral compass so low you are willing to slaughter the innocent?

"And if men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart, and yet no harm follow, he shall be surely fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine." - Exodus 21:22-25


Why did omit v23---But if their is any FURTHER injury, then you shall appoint as a penalTy LIFE FOR LIFE.


Her fruit departing is consistent with no harm as long as the mother is not harmed, and the penalty is monetary compensation. You could even call that killing fetuses and harvesting their parts for profit, couldn't you?

What an absurd statement. If the fetus dies, that constitutes 'FURTHER INJURY" and the penalty can be life for life.

Yet the church has erected this huge anti-abortion apparatus that has been chipping away in this area since 1973's Roe v. Wade ruling.

Hallelujah Amen. Keep up the good work my church.

Your secular theology is kill the innocent even in the third trimester when it could survive on its own. My son was born 6 weeks early and now he is a productive member of society.

You would say that that has is "irrelevant to Christianity." I would say that that IS Christianity. Scripture is what's irrelevant. So once again, Christianity is what it does, not what it says about itself or its scriptures when either of those doesn't conform with the news.

I would say because of your ignorance of Christianity and your extreme bias against it and because of your ignorance of when life begins, you get EVERYTHING backwards.

You don't have to look at those events in the news if you choose to ignore them, but that's not how people with no interest in scrubbing clean and whitewashing Christianity from its actions view it, and arguments like yours above won't change that.

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your bigoted remarks.
 

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
FALSE. You show me your definition of "god"? And I will show you why that is an impossible being.



FALSE. What you call "evidence" isn't actually evidence. "Because I Say So" isn't evidence.



FALSE. You define what you mean by "god" and we will prove it bogus.



LIAR. I asked you first. I have YET to see an actual answer. "Because I said So" isn't an answer.



FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of The Flying Spaghetti Monster-- proof is that all the planets look like meatballs. Proof is that intestines reflect the Glory Of FSM.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of THOR.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of SET.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of RAVEN.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of QUATZEQUATL.

FALSE. The heavens are telling of the glory of JuJu the Junebug God, who only comes around once every 1000 years.

If you answer my question, I wil answer yours. Last chance.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@omega2xx

Your post #852 was malformed. All of your words appeared in the quote section, and there was nothing else. When I hit reply, nothing at all appeared. Since I don't feel like reproducing all of your words, I won't be addressing most of that.

Don't you look at what appears on your computer screen after you hit "Post Reply"? It appears automatically. All you have to do is look at it. When you see something like that with no apparent response until you look in the quote section, it means you've got a formatting error that you need to edit. It's probably not too late for you to go back in and fix your post.

But I did look at your words.

I do not defer to your definition of Christianity any more than you defer to mine. You have no authority to disqualify other conceptions of Christianity. You're just another voice.

I noticed, however, that it's become political for you, and that you are now attacking the character of those with whom you disagree. You cannot defend your accusation that my remarks were bigoted, and I don't expect you to try. If you care to, define bigotry and identify the comment(s) from me that qualifies.

Bias is not a bad thing, just irrational bias. Justified bias is what learning is. If I learn from experience that such and such is a good thing to do, and this other person or activity should be avoided, I have developed two more rational biases that are likely to serve me well if my judgments are correct. If subsequent experience suggest that I should revise those judgments, they're still rational biases.

Your opinions are also biased, but in the other direction.

And now, they've become emotional and angry. When you get angry at another person's dispassionate ideas about ideas, you are pretty much throwing in the towel.

Here's the basic problem here: You want to see Christianity in a positive light, so you do. For you, it's "Love one another" and Sunday mornings full of "Great to see you again, brother. God bless you," pretty hymns, and an inspiring sermon. It's all rainbows and butterflies for you.

That's looking through a faith based confirmation bias that scrubs all of the unpleasant parts away for you. It tells you that the bad parts aren't really Christianity. Here you are trying to bat them away as they come by.

I describe a failed conspiracy to catch Planned Parenthood in a "gotcha" moment using hidden cameras, followed by a months long defamatory campaign depicting it as a baby murdering factory in the business of selling fetal parts for profit - all a gross misrepresentation and slander - culminating in a the predictable shooting one of their clinics, and you dismiss it all with, "Right forget about the illegal and horrible actions of planned parenthood, focus on the ONE ILLEGAL action of ONE person who was not following the teachings of Christianity."

I think he was following the teachings of Christianity as Christians presented them and he understood them. The instigators weren't just one or two rogue people, but members of an institute called the The Center for Medical Progress - Wikipedia set up to fight abortion according to the present Christian position that the Christian god does not approve of abortion.

Sorry, but that's the face of Christianity the rest not burdened by a faith based confirmation bias of us see. I have no reason to try to sweep all of that under the rug to sanitize Christianity. I am free to call a spade a spade.

And that is what you are calling bigotry.
 

Evie

Active Member
No it didn't.



Keep on saying it will eventually and you are just emphasing you do not understand genetics or mutations. Hint: Time will not change the laws of genetics.
it may well be a gradual process. But Darwin's book titled the ORIGIN of the Species is making an incorrect claim. in order for any process of evolution to begin, his theory had to appropriate (take) 'something' already in existence. As such, that 'something' possesses a PRIOR claim to the actual ORIGIN of the species. Darwin appropriated then built his theory upon that 'something'.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
it may well be a gradual process. But Darwin's book titled the ORIGIN of the Species is making an incorrect claim. in order for any process of evolution to begin, his theory had to appropriate (take) 'something' already in existence. As such, that 'something' possesses a PRIOR claim to the actual ORIGIN of the species. Darwin appropriated then built his theory upon that 'something'.
The book On the Origin of Species seeks to answer the question "how come there are (different) species?", not "how come there is life?".
 
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