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Featured The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Rick B, May 27, 2017.

  1. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the name isn't Jesus. believing on the name is salvation. meditating, or being baptized in it, leads to insight.

    the name is mentioned in the 23rd psalm and in isaiah 66. its mentioned all throughout the bible. Jesus came in that name. Ezekiel talks about it 9:4 as the seal. The revelator literally tells you what it is at rev 14:1
     
  2. Repox

    Repox Truth Seeker

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    Assuming Jesus was God and not the son of God, most of the New Testament is in error. You find references to the Messiah in the Old Testament predicting God coming into the world. God came to give testimony to His chosen people, then, due to misinterpretations he became the son of God for Christianity, a new religion which got it wrong.
     
  3. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Acts 4:5 On the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes were gathered together in Jerusalem; 6 and Annas the high priest was there, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all who were of high-priestly descent. 7 When they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, “By what power, or in what name, have you done this?” 8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers and elders of the people, 9 if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, 10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by this name this man stands here before you in good health. 11 He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, but which became the chief corner stone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

    In bold for emphasis. There is no change. The context is clear. The Person, Jesus Christ, is the same subject throughout. There is no superstitious belief in repeating His name that is the concern here. The rulers/judges asked Peter "by what power or name" this miracle was done? He answered their question directly and truthfully. "by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene".

    Neither is there salvation in any other,.... Meaning not corporeal healing, but spiritual and eternal salvation; the Syriac version renders it, neither is there "redemption in any other": Christ is the only Saviour and Redeemer, who was promised and prophesied of as such; who has saved and redeemed his people from the law, sin, and Satan; nor is salvation to be sought and hoped for from any other; not in a man's self, nor in any other creature, angels or men; not in and by his own works, and legal righteousness; not by obedience to the law of Moses, moral or ceremonial; nor by the light of nature, much less by an observance of the traditions of the elders:

    for there is none other name; thing or person, be it ever so great, or whatever show of power and strength, of holiness and religion, it makes; as the name of kings, princes, and the great men in the world; or of ministers and preachers in the church; or even of Christians and believers, which may be only a name to live; none but the name of Jesus, his person, blood, and righteousness:

    under heaven: throughout the whole earth, in all the nations and kingdoms of it; nor even in heaven itself, among all the mighty angels there, thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers; none but the Father and the Spirit, who are one with Christ: there is none but he

    given among men; and he has been freely given by his Father, as an instance of his matchless love to the world; and also freely given by himself, to be a sacrifice for the sins of his people; and is freely preached among men, as the only Saviour of them; for there is no other,

    whereby we must be saved: God resolved in his purposes and decrees, in his council and covenant, upon the salvation of his chosen people; and he appointed his Son to be the salvation of them, and determined he would save them by him, and by no other, and in no other way; wherefore, whoever are saved, must be saved by him, see Hosea 1:7 the Arabic version adds, "unless by him only". Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
     
  4. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the name is at exodus 3:14, Jesus wasn't the first to use it, or would he be the last. moses learned it from the egyptians

    the name isn't Jesus. the name was required, in order, for a prophet to be anointed by this name meant he/she was valid.


    Exodus 3:14-15
    14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.


    jesus was sent like all prophets, sons of god are.


    jesus didn't anoint himself or send himself.

    Luke 4:18
    The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,


    Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. He wasn't filled with himself. He wasn't led into the desert by the Spirit of Himself. He was led there by the Spirit of God.

    4 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,


    blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is blasphemy against self because I AM that i am implies all things created are created of God and by God's Holy Spirit.

    Jesus isn't God the Almighty, anymore than you are and anyone else.
     
    #1144 Fool, Sep 16, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2017
  5. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    OK, but how about going to Acts 4:5-12 and deal with that text directly.
     
  6. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    it says name. it doesn't say person.

    12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    it is the name that saves, immersion/meditation into the name. this agrees with

    Matthew 28:19
    Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

    again mentioned by Jesus on how to pray.


    Our Father who are in heaven, hallowed be thy name........................
     
    #1146 Fool, Sep 17, 2017
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  7. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Well if you are not familiar with context, syntax, or the use of prepositions and pronouns perhaps the impression made upon those rulers and judges who were present and personally witnessed the testimony of Peter will give irrefutable evidence as to what, exactly, was meant by what Peter said.

    Acts 4:13 Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15 But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18 And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20 for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 21 When they had threatened them further, they let them go (finding no basis on which to punish them) on account of the people, because they were all glorifying God for what had happened; 22 for the man was more than forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed.

    23 When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,

    ‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
    And the peoples devise futile things?
    26 ‘The kings of the earth took their stand,
    And the rulers were gathered together
    Against the Lord and against His Christ.’
    27 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29 And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

    There is no mention of baptism or any kind of esoteric meditation in this context or chapter. But only explicit statements that all was done in the Name of Jesus.
     
    #1147 Rick B, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  8. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    If you back up to Acts 4:10 and then read down to Verse 12, You will find Christ Jesus is the one being mention about, from verse 10 thru verse 12.

    Why is it that people will pick out only one verse and not back to the beginning of the Chapter to find who what the Chapter is about and who.
    Start at the beginning of the Chapter, pick up what the subject and Article is about.
    That will explain everything. Of who and what is being talk about.
     
  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    the name isn't jesus. the Name is mentioned all throughout the bible. Jesus isn't.

    God isn't a respecter of persons, neither is jesus. This is why you call no man good. Moses' came in the name and so did other prophet's and kings.


    Matthew 18:20
    For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

    Jesus isn't coming back, that aspect of himself that is omnipresent to all doesn't come and go. The personality comes into being with birth and dies with the person.

    John 5:43
    I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

    that verse right there tells you that Jesus is not the name. If he had come in his own name, it would have nullified the very scripture that some claim makes Jesus the Most High.

    John 10:25
    Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,

    the works anyone does in the Name testify of them because it shows that God is present in the work, or the fruit.

    with the name demons are driven out.

    Mark 16:17
    And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
     
    #1149 Fool, Sep 17, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2017
  10. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    it doesn't matter who is being associated to the name. Melchizedek was called Lord too. That is what the high priest was called of God Most High. Jesus was a god, like everyone is a god. Jesus stated this and claimed anyone could do what he did; if they believed. Yet some will deny this very statement and create Jesus vs others.

    Luke 6:35
    But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.


    are you then going to nullify the word of God or Jesus?

    John 10:34-35
    Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?
    35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God" came—and Scripture cannot be set aside" —

    this idea was taken from psalms

    “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’
    7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”

    God doesn't play favorites. The same rules apply to everyone; otherwise God is a hypocrite and double minded.
     
  11. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    Your inability and/or unwillingness to directly engage the texts demonstrate that you are clueless as to what makes for a rational debate. It also demonstrates that by your continual evasion of the proposition presented to you that you concede the debate by irrelevant, non-response i.e. nonsense.
     
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    i've read the whole bible many, many times. it is you who keep promoting idolatry knowing full well that the bible doesn't sanction it and neither did Jesus.

    Jesus said that when the comforter comes he will speak of me, or testify of me. to believe on someone doesn't require the practice of idolatry, flattery, and fawning. faith without works is dead. faith with idolatry is an abomination. the bible reiterates that repeatedly.

    it's not what one wears and what one says that matters. Actions speak louder than words.

    Your house has been left to you desolate.
     
  13. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    You will be taken seriously if you would learn the proper method of debate procedure by offering rational propositions and by replying to rebuttals with direct, pertinent, logical and civil responses. And in the case of Biblical arguments exegeting the texts is essential. When you fail in these areas, without correction, you fail the argument and lose the debate.
     
  14. Fool

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    I'm ok with you not taking me serious. Its your personal choice. I, also realize it's personal to you because your belief system is at risk. Living in idolatry and the shadow of another is always a choice. People of the darkness are like that.


    But the fact remains, the bible doesn't condone idolatry to any man; including Jesus. Idolatry is the gravest of sins. It creates a duality of a God vs man. Man's state of mind defines God; when God is Infinite.

    "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

    "So why do you keep calling me 'Lord, Lord!' when you don't do what I say?


    Jesus didn't say idolize me. Jesus didn't say worship me. Jesus said get to work and gitter done.
     
  15. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    You're jumping around. I need you to focus on Colossians 1:16 that you quoted earlier (see above).

    Since you say Jesus was created and scripture tells us he created “all” rather than “some” or “most” things, how did Jesus manage to create himself?

    Jehovah Witnesses initially “solved” this dilemma by inserting a few jots and tittles to scripture, so that it reads “For in him all [other] things were created”. Later they dropped the pretense of brackets, deciding they would just insert the word and be done with it, so that now their NWT reads “For in him all other things were created” even though the word “other” can’t be found in any manuscript, anywhere. Others "solve" it by declaring Jesus or the passage as biblical metaphor.

    I’m interested in how you solved this dilemma.

    Yes, but “begotten” is a translated, English word for "monogenes" which means “unique”, “without peer” or “one of a kind”. That’s why monogenes was translated as “only begotten” which carries a much different meaning than that of simply “beget”.

    Thanks, but this passage doesn't fully explain the earlier attempt to separate Jesus from Christ. John 20:31 specifically states Jesus is the Christ. You can't get more specific than that.

    Since the passage is so explicit, and since you've stated you've read the bible "many times", I suspect you resolved this internally by declaring the passage figurative or metaphorical. Is this correct, and if not, can you be more specific as to how Jesus and the Christ are different?

    Not sure what you mean by “it’s” Spirit. Are you now attempting to separate the Spirit from God? Whose Spirit is “it’s”?

    Philip thought much the same when he asked to see the Father:

    Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? (John 14:9)​

    Jesus responded by telling Philip he had already reached his goal. There was no need to look any further.

    Excellent observation Fool! :)

    Knowing this we have all the scripture necessary to show that Jesus is God:

    Matthew 2:11; Matthew 28:9, Matthew 28:17

    The idea of worshiping any other being but God would have been anathema to the Jews.

    With all due respect, this suggests we view creation as God which is something neither the Hebrew or Greek scripture even remotely suggests.

    Only God is God. Jeremiah 23:24 simply states God fills all of creation, the seen and the unseen. It doesn’t state that creation is God (I AM).
     
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  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Honestly Fool, you give new meaning to "...dividing the word of truth". The areas where you seemingly place your differentiation amazes me. This is why I consider exegesis rather than proof texting a much better method of rightful division. Don't get me wrong, proof-texting can be good, if only to show if so-and-so says this or such-and-such says that, but without sound exegesis you can build entirely new, novel and non-scriptural doctrines around certain passages simply by lifting them from their contextual surrounding and attaching a preferred or exaggerated weight.

    You cannot separate a person from their name. Such an idea would have been foreign not only to the biblical text but the culture at the time. A person's name described their circumstance or character. In fact, the identity of the person was so wrapped up in their name that sometimes they were given new names (by those in authority) when their identity changed. Isaac's name (he laughs) describes the response of his elderly mother, Sara, when God told her she would have a baby. Simon's name (God hears) was changed to Peter (the rock).

    Besides, if we could be saved by a simple name Jesus would never have needed to come. We could have simply chanted the name for awhile, invoking whatever mystical properties it purportedly contained until we saved ourselves. Our salvation comes through the life and blood shed by a risen Jesus, not by invocation of a name.
     
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  17. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    unfortunately the part you miss is all things created are God....that without/outside of God there is nothing because there isn't God and then some other. the bible doesn't teach anything apart from God. There is no other literally nothing because God is ALL, or Absolute. Absolute mean everything, ie visible and invisible.

    it comes from Genesis 1:2, Jeremiah 23:24, Isaiah 66:1-2, John 1:2,

    Everything was created by Christ. Jesus was created by the Holy Spirit of God just like everything else. Jesus is only the elder brother; which is the first born from the dead, Colossian 1:18. He wasn't the last born from the dead. God cannot be destroyed, cannot die, cannot be reborn, because God doesn't come and go like a personality.
     
  18. Fool

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    as i told another, Jesus, nor the bible in itself, ever condones idolatry to anything created/begotten/formed. Jesus didn't seek flattery, fawning, or idolizing. He sought action, you can do all these things and more; if you believe.

    Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed,

    the kingdom of God isn't coming with Jesus. it's coming with those who rise from the dead, those who wake up.


    Hear what the spirit says to the temples

    Matthew 13:43
    Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

    Mark 4:9
    And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

    Mark 4:23
    If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”

    to overcome means to conquer.......... I AM the Light of the world, a city set on a hill cannot be hid.

    Revelation 3:12
    The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.
     
    #1158 Fool, Sep 19, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2017
  19. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    You do realize that you are making yourself out to be God? The highest and most repulsive form of idolatry?
     
  20. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. The idea that we are all Gods is idolatry and polytheism mixed in one. Her previous citation of Psalm 82:6, which talks of "Gods" is unpersuasive since this verse speaks of the corrupt judges of Israel, not a new set of created deities. The bible is extremely clear there is only one God and there is no need to insert an inherent contradiction here.

    Quite simply, if the scripture doesn't mean what we want it to mean it's time to move on and figure out what it does mean. It is insufficient to quote a verse here and there. Our theology should be able to reconcile a stated interpretation with the balance of scripture, and I see no balance here.

    This is illogical. If Jesus created everything then the Holy Spirit could not have created Jesus, and if you're claiming the Holy Spirit is Jesus then it means Jesus created himself. You can not possibly be the creator of everything if you yourself are created.
     
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