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Featured The Bible declares that Jesus is God

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Rick B, May 27, 2017.

  1. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    No difference. Jesus is man as Son of Man, and God, as Son of God. The verse I had in mind was Luke 21:33.

    This is a common Unitarian lament. Perhaps I can answer best with a story:

    A defendant is standing before a judge on a dangerousness hearing. To the left is his lawyer and to the right the prosecutor. The question before the judge is whether the defendant, who has been accused of murder, should be remanded on bail. The defendant’s lawyer is a Unitarian.

    The prosecutor objects to bail. “Remand to custody your honor. The defendant admitted to two police officers that he spied the victim getting into her car. This led to a heated argument whereupon he shot the victim six times, stabbed her three times, clubbed her on the head with a baseball bat and threw her body off a bridge. The entire event was seen by several witnesses who are willing to testify to the whole thing.”

    The judge, looks expectantly to the defendant’s lawyer. “And what say you?”

    “The defendant seeks remand on personal recognizance your honor.”

    The judge is taken aback. “Personal recognizance?! That’s a bit much, don’t you think? These are serious charges of which your client has apparently confessed to,"

    “True,” says the lawyer, “ but now my client has been charged with murder, and not once did he ever admit to that!”​

    Trinitarians do not claim they have “proof” Jesus is God, we simply claim their is overwhelming evidence he is. Of course there will be those view things differently, but as I've mentioned before, it just seems that Unitarians hold Trinitarians to an extremely high standard of evidence, and that standard seems to be much higher than the one they raise for their own.
     
  2. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Nope! :)
    Jesus, like you and me, claimed to be a Son of Man.
    ALSO, because he was a Jew, like all Jews, he could claim to be one of the children of God, and so he could, like other Jews, call himself Son of God.
    Like Jesus Barabbas (Jesus Son of the Father) Jesus could also call himself Son of the Father.
    I often wonder which of these two Pilate really did sentence.
    Christians fiddled so much with the writings, you see, and we are left to unravel the truth from all.
    What possible connection with religion or anything does the above anecdote have?
    I could turn that round easily!
    The Defence Council explains to the Judge. 'The defendant lived with, was engaged to and love the deceased veey much. When he heard that she had cheated upon him and deceived him he was overcome with a pationate rage like never before in his life. This was a crime of passion your honour! The defendant is not dangerous to any other person alive. He is prepared to be gated to his own home before trial, and has no intention of ever harming another.'
    Judge:- 'Bail is approved'.
    In France this would definitely be the case.
    So what did your strange analogy prove?
    After a 24-72 hour period where the Tomb was not even observed, I should think that Faith is all that you have. Of course 70-90 years after the event G-John needed to adjust the evidence a bit? How would your Judge regard that?
    It's easier for Unitarians because the evidence is much more tenable for their Creeds.
    Jesus came to Jerusalem, entered the Temple, looked around and left for that day.
    Next day Jesus returned and committed criminal acxts, criminal damage and picketred the Temple Courts!
    Next day Jesus returned, picketed the Temple Courts and then argued with the priesthood who were trying to turn the crowd against him....there was a huge crowd there!
    That's three days.
    On day four Jesus held his last supper, not a passover supper because passover sacrifices were all eaten in Temple refectories. That night he was arrested.
    Next day he was interrogated by the priesthood, sent to Pilot who sent him to Antipas who was visiting Jerusalem, sent back to Pilot, tried, convicted and reluctantly sentenced by Pilot who like him. Pilot hated the Sanhedrin, so he might have liked to spare Jesus.
    After a flogging and total disfigurment of the convicts' face and body with blood there was a short crucifixion and the convict was taken down very early (most crucifixions lasted three days).
    Pilot let a Priest and merchant take down the convict and get him away.
    I don't even know which Jesus was crucified, or if the convict died!
    G-John's week is a fib, and the idea that estranged Mother and John were at base of cross is laughable when G-Mark shows that only a few women Magdalene and Salome had the guts to follow and watch 'from afar'.
    In the above case the Unitarian evidence is the prosecutor, and the trinitarian the defendant, surely?
    Jesus was not, is not God.
     
  3. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    So instead of attempting to address post 1068, in which I directly respond to your exclusively Mark challenge, you find that you can only repeat your unerudite, unsupported, solipsistic rants. Admit it you cannot refute the Biblical narrative supported by scholarly exegesis that Mark affirms the deity of Christ. If you won't give in then respond to the post with some semblance of objective "research".
     
    #1103 Rick B, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2017
  4. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    YES! :)
    Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

    But he remained silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."

    I see, so let’s see what happens when we insert your understanding into scripture:

    Peter was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.” (Mat 17:5)​

    At this point I would expect, based on your understanding, one of two things to happen:

    (1) The disciples pat themselves on the back, sure that the voice from heaven was talking about them or

    (2) Befuddlement and confusion, because no one is sure which “son” the voice was referring to​

    Let’s see what happens:

    “When the disciples heard this, they fell on their faces and were terrified. But Jesus came and touched them, saying, “Rise, and have no fear.” And when they lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. (Mat 5:6-8)​

    I think that makes it pretty clear who the "Son of God" is.

    Read the biblical account. I won’t be a spoiler here. ;)
     
  5. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately you did not “turn the analogy around” and you completely missed the point of the analogy.

    The analogy was not about bail, Old Badger, it was about evidence! I’m really beginning to think lawyers need to take a look at whether potential jurors are Trinitarian or Unitarian.

    Obviously if my lawyer confirms my admission, in front of a prosecutor and judge, that I shot someone 6 times, stabbed them 3, clubbed them over the head with a baseball bat, then dropped them over a bridge in front of witnesses is all true, my assertion “ But I never confessed to murder” is going to carry a lot more weight with a Unitarian than anyone else I can think of on the planet.

    You not only helped me make my analogy, you cemented it. Based on your standards, nobody could present convincing evidence of anything!
     
  6. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I was hoping to see the response too Rick, but in all honesty, I was also expecting to see more responses from folks who actually consider the NT authoritative and valid. So far all I've seen are arguments that if we just throw out a huge swath there, declare it tampered with there, and perhaps add a few details here we'll all see the wisdom in declaring Jesus ain't God. As far as objective research there's been zero, zilch, nada and nothing.

    I just don't find this type of Unitarian argument compelling, and for reasons we've expounded on before, entirely self-defeating. :(
     
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  7. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Cephas never used the word Christ! Greek? Never! He most probably used the word Meshiah. Now look again: You are the Meshia, Son of the (only) living God.
    Every disciple there was a son of the living God, and they believed that Yeshua would become their Meshiah. The Meshiah would have brought Moses Laws back to Moses people.
    Look at what Yeshua said:- Mat {5:17} Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. {5:18} For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Yeshua's campaign was for a return of (mainly) the poor laws.
    Christ? Nobody spoke to a rough spoken Galilean using Greek titles.... nobody.
    'Are you the Meshiah? Son of the Blessed?' Son of the Blessed is just another way to say son-of-God, which all Jews were.
    Nope. They did what I would expect a Galilean peasant to do. Cephas wondered if they had enough tents for all. Many Galilean peasants were intinerant and lived in goathair tents. I reckon that even Galilean boatmen would beach and stretch a sail into a tent. This was their culture.
    They were all sons of God! They were all very superstitious as well, and they all Mediterranean males prone to levels of hysteria which only Northern European females are exposed to. How much do you know about clinical hysteria? You need to research it but the psychos have broken it up into separate conditions and done away with that title 'hysteria' so it's a hard search for facts.
    I know the biblical account, and once evangelical fiddling is overlooked it makes perfect sense.
     
  8. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Thanks again for your reply.

    Oeste, the analogy was not good! :)
    Analogies can be a bad idea, and that one proves the point.

    If you need to spin very strange courtroom scenes to prove your religion then you must be having some trouble there. :p
     
  9. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    With this post you prove that you haven't a clue what constitutes trinitarian theology which has been defined a number of times on this thread. If you did you couldn't consruct such a grossly fallacious straw-man. This prevaracation of yours is in no way an accurate description of trinitarianism. However, being someone who takes the time to research and has the confidence to debate the topic, your mischaracterization can only be received as deliberate dishonesty. Having intentionally misrepresented the trinitarian position in this manner demonstrates your recognition (albeit unwittingly) that you have been refuted but are too prideful to admit loosing the argument.
     
  10. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Rather than taking the time to respond to your entire post, I thought I would just extract this and let it stand on it's own.

    I'm still hoping to engage with a Unitarian who believes in the truthfulness and veracity of our biblical canon, but I thank you for taking the time to expound and explain your beliefs.
     
  11. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Unitarians do not believe in the Trinity Godhead. Infact I've been told its a part of the creed that we don't follow one group or that any one religion is better then any other. Claiming Jesus as God is the same as claiming Christianity as the only religion. That's not a part of UU.
     
  12. Riders

    Riders Well-Known Member

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    Ok here it us. This is the beliefs officially taken from First UU church of Dallas.

    In Unitarian Universalism, you can bring your whole self: your full identity, your questioning mind, your expansive heart.

    Together, we create a force more powerful than one person or one belief system. As Unitarian Universalists, we do not have to check our personal background and beliefs at the door: we join together on a journey that honors everywhere we’ve been before.

    Our beliefs are diverse and inclusive. We have no shared creed. Our shared covenant (our seven Principles) supports “the free and responsible search for truth and meaning.” Though Unitarianism and Universalism were both liberal Christian traditions, this responsible search has led us to an inclusive spirituality drawn from six sources: from scriptural wisdom to personal experience to modern day heroes.

    Unitarian Universalists believe more than one thing. We think for ourselves, and reflect together, about important questions:


    • The operative word being here WERE we ere Liberal Christians( along time ago) but now we don't claim any one creed or one religion. So talk about find a Unitarian who is Evangelical Christian all you want you wont find anyone.
     
  13. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Fair Enough.
    Obviously there is a point in any debate where opposite minds can only cease as gracefully as possible....

    As a last thought, to show how some early evangelists were so determined to put Jesus in the best possible light, you might just read Josephus's short passage about Jesus. Atheist Mythers claim that this whole passage is faked, and some devout Christians claim that it is truly Josephus's account.

    Josephus did truly write about Jesus in this account. But there is evidence that this account was tampered with:
    1. If Josephus really wrote that Jesus was the Christ, why was this passage so short, much much shorter than J's account about John the Baptist?
    2. If Josephus truly wrote that Jesus was the Christ, why did he place this passage amongst his collection of the insurrectionists, rebels, trouble makers and demonstrators?

    That's the problem, and Christians were tampering with the other writings as well, and as one reads through G-Mark, the truest account of all, one can see these edits popping up repeatedly.

    Most of the miracles reported in G-Mark probably did happen as real actions, it's just Christians needed to amplify them into the supernatural. By the time G-John was written things had really got out of hand, and demonic cleansing was no longer classed as suitable for the station of Jesus...... his acts had to be much more important than those early miracles.

    Sadly, Jesus is not God, even though Christians needed so desperately to claim that he was, and the manipulations of past prophecies are just dreadful embarrassments now.

    That's why the Unitarians, who mostly class Jesus as a prophet and wonderful messenger, are most probably correct.

    But as long as Christians of any Creed live by the messages of love and understanding, and not the self-righteous judgemental hateful mindsets of some few, then that's great.
     
  14. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Absolutely.
    UU is accelerating now and growing as fast as the JW movement.
    I think that there is a New UU Church just built near us here. It's called the Riverside Church and has a huge Rainbow sign out the front. A cafe is open to all, and the resident priests are a male and female couple.
    I have never seen so many cars parked outside a Church, and it's only been there a few months!

    I'm a Deist but I'm taking my neighbour and friend (a widower) there on Monday to show him. At present he attends Kingdom Hall but has not been baptised.

    On Sunday mornings I go out cycling, and because our little churches and chapels holds services at 8 am I often park my bike and go inside to sit in a corner, listen and watch. Most of our churches might have 4 or 6 persons there plus a priest. JWs and UUs have hundreds.
     
  15. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Please read my post to Oeste, 1 or 2 posts above here.
    Also......
    It can be shown that Christians interferred with and added to G-Mark..... the last verses are later additions.

    It is now shown that several of Paul's letters were not written by the same person as the earlier ones.

    It can be shown that the nativity descriptions are just embarrassing attempts to manipulate and reverse old prophecies into the Jesus story. In fact one of these (Luke) could actually fit in with claims by Celcius that Mary (Miriam) was in fact a high class (not Galilean) young woman who was based at a Temple in Sepphoris just before its taking (Judas BarEzekiah) and retaking (Syrian Legate Varus).

    It's OK to call out your faith to the World, but you are much more aggressive than Oeste imo, and your long winded rants and long words cannot prove that Jesus is God, imo. That's why I preferred to reply to Oeste.
     
  16. Rick B

    Rick B Active Member
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    I accept your surrender.
     
    #1116 Rick B, Sep 3, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
  17. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I was looking for Unitarian who accepts the truthfulness and veracity of our canon. Unfortunately your church, like Jehovah Witnesses, prides itself on teaching “another gospel”. Rather than keep yourself a pure and devoted bride to Christ, you proudly claim you were once devoted but have now gone astray:

    “While Unitarianism and Universalism both have roots in the Protestant Christian tradition, where the Bible is the sacred text, we now look to additional sources for religious and moral inspiration.”

    I can’t think of a theology more at odds with scripture:

    I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily. (2 Corinthians 11:3-4)​

    And as such, it is unsurprising to learn they reject the Trinity.

    So while no line is drawn here:

    We also welcome those who identify as Pagans, including Wiccans, Druids, and practitioners of Goddess Spirituality. The Modern Pagan movements have many Unitarian Universalists among them. Some of our congregations have Modern Pagan groups within them, organized as chapters of CUUPS (the Covenant of UU Pagans). (source)​

    When it comes to the Trinity, all bets are off.
     
  18. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    I see nothing “aggressive” about Rick’s posts. He’s assertive, not aggressive, and this in keeping with 1 Peter 3:15, in the manner of Acts 18:25, for the reasons given in Psalm 119:139.

    He upped the ante, going beyond simple proof texts into scholarly discussion, and as such did a lot to advance sound doctrine, present proper exegesis, and delve deeper into the underpinnings of Trinity doctrine, showing not only what Trinitarians believe, but why they believe it using a predictable, consistent, peer reviewed methodology.

    Also, from his initial post, he warned readers that he was going to engage in biblical exegesis, so this was an opportunity for the scholars on this forum to challenge him on key issues, like translation, Colwell's and/or Granville' Sharp's rule and to present any evidence to the contrary.

    We got nada.

    Quite simply, if you believe in the truthfulness and veracity of scripture then it becomes evident the bible declares Jesus is God. If you believe in bits, pieces, proof texts, none of the above, some of the above, additional saviors, world wide conspiracy theories, imagined church history, and/or other sacred texts, your results and beliefs may vary.

    It is not only the evidence, but the staggering weight of the evidence for the Trinity that has allowed it to endure as sound doctrine for the church, and the main complaint against Rick's posts is not one of assay or refutation, but that the evidence he presented can sometimes appear overwhelming.

    I consider this a good read and a thread well done.
     
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  19. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Hi again.........
    Really!
    Weight of evidence?
    I tried to start at the beginning and got nowhere...... I suggested that we simply start with accurate names for disciples and Yeshua........... Nada.

    You could start with the nativity story but I haven't seen a proposed birth date or explanation for the differing accounts.

    You could explain why G-Mark describes an 11-12 month mission and G-John a 3 year mission?

    You could explain why G-John's last passover week is totally different to G-Mark's.

    You could explain how the resurrection is proved when the tomb was left for over a day?

    You see........ splurging the pages with waffle is not a scholarly approach to provenance. Short sharp bite-sized chunks win the day, but sadly these tend to show that Jesus was an insurrectionist would-be Meshiah rather than a Greek Christ!

    :shrug:
     
  20. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    The Bible makes a lot of claims most of them just aren't credible.
     
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