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The balance between ones internal drives and external "law"

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I think there are a whole host of topics that sort of vaguely connect to the title of this thread. About individualism and collectivism, morality, finding "purpose" in life, and so on.

I assume that everyone is aware, in their own life, of tension that arises sometimes between one's own internal feelings, thoughts, urges, aspirations and self-understanding, and what are perceived as external forces that constrain one's choices, actions, and self-image, whether morally, legally, socially, or even just physically (as in "natural law").

I presume that a mature person recognizes that there is a need for some kind of balance. An extreme in the direction of an egoistic individualism that gives no consideration to any "outside", to the reality of other people or cultural norms, is essentially sociopathic. We recognize occasionally the need to constrain our impulses by reasoned reflection on the consequences of our choices on others. On the other hand, an extreme in the other direction becomes authoritarian, fascist, legalistic, and excessive moralizing seems to destroy something beautiful in human nature as well. When I look at various religious traditions, I tend to see reflections that ponder the necessity of both sides of the dichotomy. In Christian terms, it might be the relation between "Law" and "The Law written on our hearts".

The question is: how does one find a balance between these occasionally opposed forces in life? Can they brought into harmony?


What follows are some of my own possibly tangled reflections, but you are welcome to respond without reading them, since they meander a bit.

--------

My present noodlings have followed from a combination of learning biblical Greek and reading some of the Vedas, and a couple of passages from those texts that are stuck in my brain:

You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
(Matthew 5:43-48)

At first was neither Being nor Non-being.
There was not air nor yet sky beyond.
What was its wrapping? Where? In whose protection?
Was Water there, unfathomable and deep?

There was no death then, nor yet deathlessness;
of night or day there was not any sign.
The One breathed without breath, by its own impulse.
Other than that was nothing else at all.

Darkness was there, all wrapped around by darkness,
and all was Water indiscriminate. Then
that which was hidden by the Void, that One, emerging,
stirring, through power of Ardor came to be...
(Nasadiya Sukta, Rg Veda X,129)

From blazing Ardor cosmic order came
and truth; from thence was born the obscure night;
from thence the ocean with its billowing waves...
(Rg Veda X, 190)
And the two primary words, as symbols, which get at this tension for me are perfection and ardor. "Perfection" is the greek τέλειος (teleios), and "Ardor" the sanskrit तपस् (tapas)

Tapas

The word literally means "heat", and in its older usages seems to also have a strong sexual connotation. Passion, Desire, the "heat" that represents the dynamism of Life, the living impulse. There is also the similar word "Kama". In later Vedic and Upanishadic thought, tapas came to be associated with ascetic practices and self-discipline. Tapas is that inner energy which fuels the aspiration and realization of spiritual awakening.

There is already here I think a certain synthesis between the "internal drive" and "external law" that I was asking about, as between the literal and original meaning of the word and its later usage in Yoga as "discipline". The goal of liberation is, in a sense, the "external" law, but as a state of being represents the energy of all reality, so that in the Nasadiya Sukta, it is by Tapas the One springs into being. This ardor that is the wellspring of existence must be channeled constructively in order to reach the goal, but the goal is not itself a purely "external" requirement, since it represents the essential nature and dynamism of everything, it is the very source of the "cosmic order" of which we are also a part, and it a part of us. (cf. Rg Veda X, 190 above)

Teleios

The root word telos, from which we get teleology, means "aim", "purpose", "goal", and to be "teleios" is to have reached the goal, to be complete, finished. Perfect.

The first thing that was interesting to me is that in English I always tended to hear the word "perfection" within a context that focuses on flaws. But in Greek it seems possible to emphasize the possibility that the "perfected" state of a thing is not necessarily a flawless state from some absolute perspective. So for example in Aristotle the Telos of a thing depends on its kind. Here there also seems to me to be a possibly useful balance.

Human perfection is not the flawless execution of a moral standard. In the nature of human consciousness, in its inherent limitations, contingencies, its self-reflectiveness, and our awareness of our lack of knowledge and certainty, there is a certain always-coming-to-be, an un-finishedness (in-finite?) that is literally the opposite of Teleios.

And yet, in Jesus' words the "perfection" of human life lies in its magnanimity towards all that is, as God who makes it rain upon the just as well as the unjust. I think here there is both an external force, that of nature itself, so to speak, but in the understanding of the "law" also a limit to absolutisms and moralizing. If human perfection consisted of knowing absolute truths, there would be no need for the non-judgement emphasized by the Sermon on the Mount, or of forgiveness. Rather, they flow from our limitations, both of knowledge and of our capacity to manifest our own inner desires. As Paul says, "the things I want to do, I do not do".

From a certain angle, "salvation from sin", from separation from God, which is that which is ultimately real (however understood), is functionally similar to Liberation, Moksha. Perfection is neither the realization of a purely egoistic ideal, nor the enforcement of a purely social morality or the whims of a wholly other Divine. Of the latter, I reflect that "in him we live and move and have our being." The harmony between the internal and external flows from the realization that they are not truly separate from the "external" source of law, but that it is part of us and we of it, and the discipline of "law" is the nurturing of an internal heat (ardor, tapas) that is the dynamism of our coming to be. That human life is also that becoming, that aspiration towards what we have not yet realized.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Honestly, I just aim to be what I am and not sweat the details. What shall be, shall be, and the "balance" that emerges will be exactly what it must be and is supposed to be.

It probably helps being a determinist, too. :sweat:
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I guess to explain your notion from my point of view in perspective of the left-hand path has always been to eliminate these tensions by unifying the microcosm (internal forces) with macrocosm (external). Ultimately, the division of these things in my view is completely illusionary in nature and the turmoil caused of them is a byproduct of simply being aware of the lack of integration of two halves of a whole. Friction is seen mostly due to being unable to understand the current of the forces of play and move with the flow. Many religions identify this as karmic process, but I do not believe in that myself. Our ego wants us to be special and unique, but we are not separated from the whole -- it is this ego that interferes with the experience of the real reality! :) By consciously working toward aligning these components of our nature we can work both cohesively and have more say in the result.

Collectivism ultimately is a phantom of ones mind -- you have a collection of individuals who have the same notion/morals/whatever and they are working as a unit, but only for the fact that these groups represent their self-interest. Their loyalty is ultimately to themselves no matter how altruistic the motives appear from the outside! It is just a basic premises of human nature, and very much how we are wired.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I guess to explain your notion from my point of view in perspective of the left-hand path has always been to eliminate these tensions by unifying the microcosm (internal forces) with macrocosm (external).

I am tempted to accept this as, from my perspective, a good summary of the basic nature of "religion". That which re-links (re-ligare) the worlds of Man, Cosmos (nature), and Divinity.

Ultimately, the division of these things in my view is completely illusionary in nature and the turmoil caused of them is a byproduct of simply being aware of the lack of integration of two halves of a whole. Friction is seen mostly due to being unable to understand the current of the forces of play and move with the flow. Many religions identify this as karmic process, but I do not believe in that myself. Our ego wants us to be special and unique, but we are not separated from the whole -- it is this ego that interferes with the experience of the real reality! :) By consciously working toward aligning these components of our nature we can work both cohesively and have more say in the result.

It sounds a lot like the advaitic insight.

Collectivism ultimately is a phantom of ones mind -- you have a collection of individuals who have the same notion/morals/whatever and they are working as a unit, but only for the fact that these groups represent their self-interest. Their loyalty is ultimately to themselves no matter how altruistic the motives appear from the outside! It is just a basic premises of human nature, and very much how we are wired.

What I would say is that the prior observation about the connectedness (or that separation is illusory) of the "inner" and "outer" provides a means of qualifying "individualism" in a way that can ameliorate its abuses. Individualism as a capital-I Ideal can become pathological in my view if it is seen in an absolutized ontological sense where others are truly and utterly "other". I think when abused it goes beyond recognizing that "natural" self-interest and self-preservation is part of human life, and is not inherently evil. When truly experienced and lived the intuition of the connectedness of everything leads, imo, to a deeper appreciation of the idea that one should love others as one's self, as the saying goes. Not purely as an analogy, i.e loving them as other selves with the same social or moral rights, but as one's very own self. Which is also an idea in need of qualification, right? But it addresses the challenge in the same way as you said, by experiencing that the separations are not real
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
How you balance it is you make a choice. You examine your internal drives and the external forces. Whatever action you take, you will have to deal with the consequences of. Sometimes you decide it's not worth dealing with the external forces to act according to your own will. Sometimes it is worth it. What I don't do is predetermine my actions. Each situation is different and should be considered in isolation from what you've expected in the past. Examine the situation and circumstances and make a choice that you think will bring about the result/future that you want.

If you screw up, yes people will judge you as having been wrong, but failing to bring about the desired result I see as a lack of important information and circumstances you had no knowledge of. So just work at becoming more aware of the circumstance, the environment, the law, your own morality which I think is unique for everybody. Then you can make better better choices to bring about the results that you want.

To find balance, seek knowledge so you can successfully bring into existence the future you've chosen.

Being a libertarian helps as well, otherwise you might see yourself as not having any choice about your future. :smilingimp:
 

Mindmaster

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
What I would say is that the prior observation about the connectedness (or that separation is illusory) of the "inner" and "outer" provides a means of qualifying "individualism" in a way that can ameliorate its abuses. Individualism as a capital-I Ideal can become pathological in my view if it is seen in an absolutized ontological sense where others are truly and utterly "other". I think when abused it goes beyond recognizing that "natural" self-interest and self-preservation is part of human life, and is not inherently evil. When truly experienced and lived the intuition of the connectedness of everything leads, imo, to a deeper appreciation of the idea that one should love others as one's self, as the saying goes. Not purely as an analogy, i.e loving them as other selves with the same social or moral rights, but as one's very own self. Which is also an idea in need of qualification, right? But it addresses the challenge in the same way as you said, by experiencing that the separations are not real

Most of the left-hand path ascribes to individualism as a primary tenet of philosophy, but as you can see I have sort of grown past this idea in that I seen some of it's abuses. A lot of the LHP has incorporated fascist ideas within their group alongside this and those have prevented them from experiencing empathy very much in the way you describe. Instead of nationalism however they go with the idea that they represent an alien-elite and people not involved are not part of the team. I think it is largely a matter of ego identification in this case -- these folks exalt and nearly worship their ego. Sociopath it is!

I think it is extremely difficult for someone to wrap their head around connectedness without having some sort of mystical process at work in their lives and this is largely the crux of the problem. (And no, I don't mean _merely_ participating in a religion.. I mean being something like an armchair monk and using processes which provide gnosis-like experiences.)
 

Orbit

I'm a planet

The question is: how does one find a balance between these occasionally opposed forces in life? Can they brought into harmony?


I am responding to the initial question in your OP, and will respond to your "noodling" in another post.

Your question requires some examination of your underlying concepts. In your list of "internal" aspects, self-understanding leaps out as "not like the others". I think there is a difference between intellectual understanding of our emotional maturity--the ability to realistically appraise it--and our more instinctive, subconscious drives. Our internal feelings arise whether we like it or not. It's not generally healthy to deny their existence. That they are often in conflict with social norms is inevitable. Society is a control mechanism, which wouldn't exist if there were nothing there to control.

In answer to your question, if I may paraphrase it thus: "How can we reconcile our emotions and feelings with what the social order tells us we should be feeling?", the answer is that feelings have to be tempered by intellect. The way in which they are tempered depends on a person's value system, which includes religious ideology. In other words, one of the functions of religion is to bring social norms and internal feelings into an acceptable level of tension; but a tension will always exist. This tension is at the heart of the human experience, therefore so also is the mediating spirituality.

The tension is there because our emotions are truly beyond our control. We can control how we interpret and react to am emotion, but we can't keep it from arising. We can't think it away, rationalize it away, pray it away. I think much of where organized Abrahamic religion fails is in that people are led to feel guilty for having feelings that are counter to social and religious norms and expectations. I think the Dharmic faiths have a better handle on this. To digress a moment into Tibetan Buddhism, deities are symbolic, and are absorbed into oneself during meditation. Symbolically, you "become" the deity. For example, while meditating on White Tara, associated with compassion, you absorb that quality into yourself. I think this is a useful technique also for owning your emotions.

So back to the tension between internal feelings and social norms: religion provides the means to strike an acceptable tension/balance between them. A religious tradition will convey implicit and explicit suggestions about how we are to relate to our emotions, and our imperfections. Instead of latching onto the guilt common to Abrahamic traditions, it may be useful to adopt a more Dharmic view. Meditate on the feelings and emotions; accept them as part of yourself, and move on.

With respect to the dichotomy of the (religious/secular) Law and the "law written on our hearts", science provides some insight. The "law in our hearts" is our own inborn empathy. In a normally-developed human, our brains register the emotions of others, quite physically. We are reflecting pools. Ideally, secular law would not contradict the law of our hearts, but sometimes it does. For example, during WWII, it was illegal to hide Jews from the Nazis. I think this makes a good case for the law of our hearts taking precedence.

There is also the practical need to survive in one's society. The Book of Proverbs sums this up this practicality in a verse "Be righteous; but be not overly righteous. For why shouldst thou destroy thyself?". Jesus also dealt with this tension in saying "Render unto Ceasar that which is Caesar's. Render unto God that which is God's", I think what is God's is our empathy, the law written on our hearts. In addition, Jesus recognized this tension in saying "A man cannot serve God and mammon", where mammon is social norms and practices, the external; and where God is the law written on our hearts.

The bottom line is that the tension between internal and external will always be there, as long as we live under the constraints of human society. Spiritual practice can help us navigate the tension.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I think the point about emotions being beyond control is well taken. And I agree that in many ways the "dharmic" attitude seems more fruitful than some of the traditional Abrahamic approaches, especially with regard to a view of repentance that over-emphasizes guilt and shame.

It's interesting to me, and I'm not sure I fully know what I'm trying to say here, but much of your post is sort of sociological in its focus, but then there is the part about absorbing the quality of compassion via meditation on White Tara, and "becoming" the Deity. To me that suggests the kind of existential, ontic feeling that I have about this topic. I perhaps view that in a more ontologically real way then you do, although I'm not sure about that. The language of it is tricky.But when I talk about self-understanding I have vaguely in mind something more than just intellectual understanding. Maybe something in the tradition of asking "Who am I?" in vedic philosophy. It is more than an intellectual self-image, because it is supposed to lead to Realization. I think there is lots of value in the sociological reflection, or in thinking about how societies should enact and enforce laws, or how one should approach an ethical life, but ultimately I'm mostly drawn towards the mysticism of expressions like absorbing compassion.

I really like the verses you cite in Proverbs and in the gospels. The idea that it will always be there is something that I keep trying to get at, in this case by trying to describe human perfection as "unfinished", and the like. I find all these poetic expressions for it moving. "The way is in the walking" and so on. Tension presupposes movement, change, dynamism, energy, tapas, kama, etc.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
I think the point about emotions being beyond control is well taken. And I agree that in many ways the "dharmic" attitude seems more fruitful than some of the traditional Abrahamic approaches, especially with regard to a view of repentance that over-emphasizes guilt and shame.

It's interesting to me, and I'm not sure I fully know what I'm trying to say here, but much of your post is sort of sociological in its focus, but then there is the part about absorbing the quality of compassion via meditation on White Tara, and "becoming" the Deity. To me that suggests the kind of existential, ontic feeling that I have about this topic. I perhaps view that in a more ontologically real way then you do, although I'm not sure about that. The language of it is tricky.But when I talk about self-understanding I have vaguely in mind something more than just intellectual understanding. Maybe something in the tradition of asking "Who am I?" in vedic philosophy. It is more than an intellectual self-image, because it is supposed to lead to Realization. I think there is lots of value in the sociological reflection, or in thinking about how societies should enact and enforce laws, or how one should approach an ethical life, but ultimately I'm mostly drawn towards the mysticism of expressions like absorbing compassion.

I really like the verses you cite in Proverbs and in the gospels. The idea that it will always be there is something that I keep trying to get at, in this case by trying to describe human perfection as "unfinished", and the like. I find all these poetic expressions for it moving. "The way is in the walking" and so on. Tension presupposes movement, change, dynamism, energy, tapas, kama, etc.

I don't think we can separate the spiritual from the social. After all, religious law was meant to govern society and is a reflection of the society that created it. Dealing just with the first question in the OP, it has to be sociological--because religion is precisely about social control. Religious law is social control. The "external" you speak of is social. I really don't think it's useful to study religion in isolation from the culture that produced it. Self knowledge occurs in a cultural context. What I mean to say is that the external is socially constructed; the internal is emotional, and our religious tradition helps us navigate the tension. I hope that clarifies.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
I don't think we can separate the spiritual from the social. After all, religious law was meant to govern society and is a reflection of the society that created it. Dealing just with the first question in the OP, it has to be sociological--because religion is precisely about social control. Religious law is social control. The "external" you speak of is social. I really don't think it's useful to study religion in isolation from the culture that produced it. Self knowledge occurs in a cultural context. What I mean to say is that the external is socially constructed; the internal is emotional, and our religious tradition helps us navigate the tension. I hope that clarifies.

So I want to agree and then say "yes, but..."

Religious law is social control, and also is clearly a reflection of the societies that create it, and so it is certainly correct in my view that religion should be considered in relation to the cultures that produce it. However, at least in my pondering of the "external" element (I haven't figured out a clear word for this), I have in mind also the idea that, insofar as religious law is religious, the way it is understood by those cultures is at least in some way as if it reflected some greater cosmic or divine law, order, or nature, to pick three words that have slightly different connotations but seem to me in this context to point in a similar direction. And it's not to say that any particular religious law actually is, in its human expression, an absolute revelation of a "Divine law". The reflection on teleios, and my comments about the Sermon on the mount and what it has to say about the idea of absolute human knowledge, are all predicated on the idea that there isn't any such absolute revelation, that what is revealed (or heard, to use the language of the Śruti) is heard at some time, by someone, in some place, and those qualifications certainly matter.

But, I am attracted to this idea that there is in fact something like a Divine or cosmic order (to use the phrase from the Rg Veda I cited.) And part of what I'm trying to get at here is some kind of reflection on what that order is like, which is something like a theological reflection. So on one extreme you might have something like the Divine Command Theory view of morality of William Lane Craig, which might be called Law in a very anthropomorphized sense, because his "divine order" is supposed to be the Will of an anthropomorphized Supreme Being. On the other hand, the Vedic Ṛta (order), and certain conceptions of karma, might be a lot easier to think of in a more cosmic and impersonal way, although I'm sure it's an oversimplification of course to see Christian theology of Law as strictly anthropomorphic and a question of an arbitrary Divine Will, or the Hindu concept of "order" strictly impersonally. For my part, I despise WLC's morality and its philosophical basis, and am drawn more towards how I symbolically hear words like Ṛta, although I also think within Christian tradition's development of the contrast between the letter of law and the Spirit there is room for a lot of subtlety, as with the idea that God "makes it rain upon the just as well as the unjust." In any case, the upshot of this more theological perspective is to consider the "external" not merely in a sociological way, but related to the very nature of things, as in the cosmic order that springs out of Tapas. This ends up pivoting towards what Mindmaster was saying about the illusion of separation ultimately between the "internal" and "external". We are also an expression of that order of things, albeit with the mysterious human element of freedom, whatever that ultimately means.

None of that entails separating the social element, which is also important, it's just to me a question of whether there is more than the social, rather than less.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
So I want to agree and then say "yes, but..."

, I have in mind also the idea that, insofar as religious law is religious, the way it is understood by those cultures is at least in some way as if it reflected some greater cosmic or divine law, order, or nature, to pick three words that have slightly different connotations but seem to me in this context to point in a similar direction.

Think about this. What would a divine cosmic law regulate? Society. The laws about washing your hands before you eat in the Torah are "divinely given" but are in reality the first public health laws. The kosher prohibition against shellfish recognizes the allergy potential and the fact that shrimp concentrate toxins in their bodies. This is public health disguised as divine order to give it legitimacy.

Similarly, the 10 Commandments are not about the divine, not about the ineffable, but are about not doing those things that disturb relationships and the social order. Again, religion gives it legitimacy. Religion is society worshipping itself; religious laws justify the worship and the social order.

I realize that you want to make this an exploration of theology, but theology doesn't exist outside of its cultural context. The Bible can't be understood as a self-referential, self-validating sui generis source of theology. I'm arguing for contextualizing theology as the social construct that it is, not reifying it as a manifestation of divine revelation. To be useful, theology needs to be brought down to earth and studied holistically. I am however, biased toward the practical. I find theory without practical application wanting.

I'm preparing another post to respond to the second part of the OP.
 

lovemuffin

τὸν ἄρτον τοῦ ἔρωτος
Think about this. What would a divine cosmic law regulate? Society. The laws about washing your hands before you eat in the Torah are "divinely given" but are in reality the first public health laws. The kosher prohibition against shellfish recognizes the allergy potential and the fact that shrimp concentrate toxins in their bodies. This is public health disguised as divine order to give it legitimacy.

I can't fault you for not seeing anything of "cosmic" significance in laws about hand washing, or what food may be eaten, or things like that, but it's not really what I have in mind. It's also true that in some sense I'm pivoting between distinct but (in my mind at least) related questions, or the same question that seems to me to have different levels. One level is strictly moral, and I think your comments about social control address that level of the question. And on that level I really liked your perspective that the "law written on our hearts" is empathy. That is seemingly in harmony with Jesus' gloss of the moral elements of the law of Moses: the commandment is to love. And so on that level where there is tension between inner drives and an external moral authority, I agree with you that the cultural/societal nature of those laws is important, and that sometimes "the law of our hearts" should take precedence, as far as resolving a moral tension.

On the other hand, and this is perhaps where the second part of my post really comes from, I see religions not primarily as vehicles for morality, but for personal transformation, realization, fulfillment, moksha, salvation, however various traditions put it. On this level I perceive this tension sometimes between my emotions and inner drives and my perception of what I am spiritually hoping to become in that transformative process. I often quote the Beatitude "blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God", and it speaks to the same idea as Tapas-as-discipline-towards-spiritual-realization. It speaks to the idea that becoming what one wishes to become in order to be fulfilled requires discipline and involves this tension between (perhaps) an ego and a "higher self", so to speak. If I speak of a "cosmic order" in this context, I don't really have in mind a moral law, but that there is something fundamental in the structure of reality that exerts a force which impels me towards that transformation, union with God, theosis, Moksha, or etc.

I thought of an example within the Christian tradition that might get at what I mean by "law" as "cosmic order", while also speaking to the impact of culture:

Without making any attempt to explore all of the meaning of the term, sacrifice is clearly a centrally important symbol in Judaism, perhaps especially in the second Temple period. It is in that context that the earliest Jewish followers of Jesus understood the meaning of the crucifixion and resurrection, and from that context that we read descriptions of Jesus as the "lamb who takes away the sin of the world", or as a "ransom" given for all. The importance given to Sacrifice as a symbol is exactly in that it is a symbol of the order of reality, the "law" of reality. Sacrifice maintains the harmony and order of reality which humanity participates in directly. It's probably worth noting that in the cultural/religious context, the "cosmic" order is not cosmological in the mode of modern science in its objectivity, but an order in which human persons have a more central role as stewards of creation, and etc. For example, in the Ethics of the Fathers, a text of the Mishnah, it is written that the world stands on three things, the Torah, the service in the Temple, and benevolence. (1.3, cf. this article)

Note that I'm not trying to suggest a literal and absolute understanding of this idea, I'm only pointing to it as an example of what I mean, beyond the level of morality, when I talk about a religious idea about the "cosmic order" of reality, a Divine Law. Although sacrifice (yajña) in the Vedic tradition is certainly not the same as in the Hebrew, there is a similar idea that it is sacrifice that upholds the order of reality (rta). The main thrust of my reflections on tapas/teleios, I believe, was in thinking about resolving even the moral tension by appeal to this deeper meaning of "law" and "cosmic order", and in finding that I am not separate from it.

Going back to early Jewish Christian's understanding of the cruficixion of Jesus in the context of the Hebrew symbolism of sacrifice, and the importance of culture, I think a wonderful example of the possibility of taking the "myth" seriously without absolutizing it or insisting on a perfectly fixed and literal understanding can be found in the way that later Greek Christianity came to understand the crucifixion in a different light. Gregory Nazianzen was uncomfortable with the ransom theory of atonement, I would suggest, and almost certainly because the Hebrew understanding of sacrifice was foreign to him and to the very Greek-influenced theology of his time. Instead, they emphasized the idea of God becoming human in order to "assume" human nature and deify it. The underlying mythical assumption, which plays a similar role in terms of being an intuition about something like a "cosmic order of reality" as sacrifice does, is that "fullness" for any particular thing can only be brought about by its assumption into the life of Divinity.

So, for me, all three of these, the Hebrew and Vedic notions of sacrifice, or the Greek Christian notion of assumption, are symbolic of intutions about a kind of Divine or Cosmic order or Law, and so I think a lot of my remarks pivoted towards thinking of the question of balance in regard to "law" in this way, rather than in a purely moral sense, although both levels of the question seem worthwhile to me. As I said originally, my thoughts are meandering. I hoped the thread might help me pull it together a bit more :p I've enjoyed getting different perspectives, which was one reason I also just went ahead and left it open ended.

I realize that you want to make this an exploration of theology, but theology doesn't exist outside of its cultural context. The Bible can't be understood as a self-referential, self-validating sui generis source of theology. I'm arguing for contextualizing theology as the social construct that it is, not reifying it as a manifestation of divine revelation. To be useful, theology needs to be brought down to earth and studied holistically. I am however, biased toward the practical. I find theory without practical application wanting.

I'm a sucker for theory obviously. I'm willing to call it a weakness...

One of the reasons I'm attracted to all of these sort-of comparative religion approaches, like thinking about Tapas and Teleios as symbols from two different religions in relation to each other, is because I think approaching religious/spiritual questions from multiple cultural/religious viewpoints edifying. Maybe it's just my being a sucker for theory, but I enjoy it, and I also enjoy making others suffer through it :p

In any case, I don't think it's a question of considering the Bible self-validating, although in some sense a mythic worldview has to be "self-validating" for those from whom it functions as a worldview, or else it ceases to really be such a worldview, but rather merely an object of study. But I don't consider it self-validating in an objective, academic, or philosophical sense, and my purpose here has not been to try to argue my way around to some kind of validation of the Bible either, just to be clear. Mostly i'm just rambling on about words that symbolically evoke a lot of things to me, and seem to point towards some profound understanding, all the more so because I see it from different angles across more than one religion.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Excellent topic. Congratulations!

I presume that a mature person recognizes that there is a need for some kind of balance. An extreme in the direction of an egoistic individualism that gives no consideration to any "outside", to the reality of other people or cultural norms, is essentially sociopathic. We recognize occasionally the need to constrain our impulses by reasoned reflection on the consequences of our choices on others. On the other hand, an extreme in the other direction becomes authoritarian, fascist, legalistic, and excessive moralizing seems to destroy something beautiful in human nature as well. When I look at various religious traditions, I tend to see reflections that ponder the necessity of both sides of the dichotomy. In Christian terms, it might be the relation between "Law" and "The Law written on our hearts".

The question is: how does one find a balance between these occasionally opposed forces in life? Can they brought into harmony?

Definitely, it is not only possible but basically unavoidable, although the road to arrive there can be very traumatic indeed.

That is because both extremes end up creating demands that can only be fulfilled by transcendence of the extremes own limitations.

Extreme individualism ends up feeling the need to reach for others, if for no other reason because there is only so much that one can do by oneself and because even the most egocentric people are subject to the effects of other people's actions. In order to realize one's most personal desires, it is necessary to ensure the personal space that may be claimed by others as well, thereby creating the need for a strategy for dealing with others. Self-interest demands interest in others.

By its turn, legalism and authoritarism is a direct expression of the desire to exert control over others - and in that sense, it is often also the direct result of egocentrism rampant seeking the means for further expressing itself, despite occasional appearances to the contrary. A very Taoistic fact, come to think of it.

And naturally, excesses of legalism can't help but underscore the need for freedom of personal expression, closing the cycle of mutually reinforcing if superficially opposing obsessions.

When such a vicious cycle establishes itself, it will run its unhealthy course for a while, then eventually heal itself either though the exercise of wisdom or through painful collapse under its own weight. Both extremes are in a sense expensive affectations that can't long sustain themselves without finding the need for frequent visitations to the opposite extreme.

The most harmonious, stable, fulfilling attitude for people to take on this matter is IMO one of ambitious awareness.

We should nurture gratitude for the means of expression that are in effect gifted to us by everyone else, just as we should at the same time take to heart the desire for doing something with those gifts.

We should learn not only to navigate through the space that is both personally ours and everyone else's gift, but to take pleasure on it and to excel on it. It should be our pride and joy to no longer have much of a notion of whether we do things for others or rather for ourselves.

It seems to me that some specific religious traditions emphasize that joyous challenge in some way or another. Tibetan Buddhism has reflections on Interdependent Origination and mortality; Shinto raises a healthy level of awareness of the close relationship between individual and collectiveness; Sikh Dharma has the Langar practice; Judaism is in practice if not in doctrine very much a perpetual exercise of mutual commitment towards other members of the Jewish People. I am certain that there are examples on other faiths as well.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
There is another possible way of looking at the dichotomy framed by the OP. And that both positive and negative forces exist within us:

One evening, an elderly cherokee brave told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.

he said "my son, the battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all. one is evil. it is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

the other is good. it is joy, peace love, hope serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

the grandson though about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather:

"which wolf wins?..."

the old cherokee simply replied, "the one that you feed"
 
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