The Bahai theory - Six days of creation, one day is a thousand days, one prophet per day

[firedragon]

This came up in a completely irrelevant thread so I thought I would open up a thread for this topic alone, be it small or big, each topic needs its own respect and attention.

The Bahai claim seems to be this.

1. God says in the Qur'an that the creation of the universe took six days.
2. In another verse (e.g. 22:47) it says one day is a 1,000 days.
3. So this means God created this universe in 6,000 days? No, the Bahai's believe this is a spiritual creation.
4. And this creation story doesn't mean it was actually creation itself, it was 6 periods is 6 human cycles.
5. Not concluding this is a definite statement but one Bahai adherent also cited that its like "Christ, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Krishna and the Bab.", the adamic cycle that include these figures.
6. This is the adamic cycle that ended with Muhammed

Well, these 6 points don't do justice and is definitely not comprehensive me being an absolute amateur in the Bahai faith. Thus, anyone could correct me easily.

My arguments against this will be as below.
1. In the creation account the word used for day is "Ayyam". In other verse 22:47 its Yowm. The latter is singular, and Ayyam is duel plural. So its definitely not the same, and never can be made to be absolute and count in numbers as the same thing. This point of view is invalid linguistically.

2. Though the Bahais believe this is a spiritual creation, not six days, and not an actual creation, and ended with Muhammed etc, the Quran says the creation or this 6 days ended prior to life and it is cited as the universe was created in six days (stages) and the conditions that made life possible on earth took place in last four stages (50:38; 41:10).

3. Earth or matter was built as said in the Quran as Khalakal ardha fee yawmayni (two periods) and then the determination of sustenance in four periods. So life did not exist prior to these so called "Periods" in the Qur'an so if creation ended with Muhammed, there should be pandemonium before him in a spiritual world of humanity which would mean there are no bones, no fossils, all just spiritual.

4. Quran also says that what we count as a 1000 days is just like one day for God. Now here, one thousand in arabic is "alf". But when the Quran says "Ka" which is called "Jarun wamajroorun" in arabic grammar which is a prefix that defines the attached proposition. It means "Like 1000. Not exactly 1000. Its an explanation to say that for God, a 1000 years for a mans count is "Like' one day" for God and vice versa, which means the person who is prosing this is either ignorant of the language of the time, or is inferring on purpose.

5. The Quran also says in verse 70:4 that one day in Gods reckoning is like 50,000 for men. So this verse is dropped in that idea of 1000 years. This is simply saying that our perspective of time is not relevant to God. But it seems like the Bahai faith has made into a human perspective while ignoring some of the verses, and misunderstanding the language.

6. The Quran doesn't say anything about an adamic cycle. There is a distinction between Ayyam and Yawm and the proponents of this idea has not understood that simple matter. And taking names like Zoroaster, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Bab, Muhammed etc seems like someone is dropping names that are found here and there. I was told that men cannot understand this, so Bab being basically God himself knows this because he is what he is. But in that case, since the Qur'an says there were messengers sent to every nation, names we didnt know should have been dropped here, not only known names.

Its very very very rare to see objective answers to each question with analysis but honestly I expect some.

I would very much appreciate it. This is in no way is to insult any one and I would like to see some insight.

Peace.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This came up in a completely irrelevant thread so I thought I would open up a thread for this topic alone, be it small or big, each topic needs its own respect and attention.

The Bahai claim seems to be this.

1. God says in the Qur'an that the creation of the universe took six days.
2. In another verse (e.g. 22:47) it says one day is a 1,000 days.
3. So this means God created this universe in 6,000 days? No, the Bahai's believe this is a spiritual creation.
4. And this creation story doesn't mean it was actually creation itself, it was 6 periods is 6 human cycles.
5. Not concluding this is a definite statement but one Bahai adherent also cited that its like "Christ, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Krishna and the Bab.", the adamic cycle that include these figures.
6. This is the adamic cycle that ended with Muhammed

Well, these 6 points don't do justice and is definitely not comprehensive me being an absolute amateur in the Bahai faith. Thus, anyone could correct me easily.

My arguments against this will be as below.
1. In the creation account the word used for day is "Ayyam". In other verse 22:47 its Yowm. The latter is singular, and Ayyam is duel plural. So its definitely not the same, and never can be made to be absolute and count in numbers as the same thing. This point of view is invalid linguistically.

2. Though the Bahais believe this is a spiritual creation, not six days, and not an actual creation, and ended with Muhammed etc, the Quran says the creation or this 6 days ended prior to life and it is cited as the universe was created in six days (stages) and the conditions that made life possible on earth took place in last four stages (50:38; 41:10).

3. Earth or matter was built as said in the Quran as Khalakal ardha fee yawmayni (two periods) and then the determination of sustenance in four periods. So life did not exist prior to these so called "Periods" in the Qur'an so if creation ended with Muhammed, there should be pandemonium before him in a spiritual world of humanity which would mean there are no bones, no fossils, all just spiritual.

4. Quran also says that what we count as a 1000 days is just like one day for God. Now here, one thousand in arabic is "alf". But when the Quran says "Ka" which is called "Jarun wamajroorun" in arabic grammar which is a prefix that defines the attached proposition. It means "Like 1000. Not exactly 1000. Its an explanation to say that for God, a 1000 years for a mans count is "Like' one day" for God and vice versa, which means the person who is prosing this is either ignorant of the language of the time, or is inferring on purpose.

5. The Quran also says in verse 70:4 that one day in Gods reckoning is like 50,000 for men. So this verse is dropped in that idea of 1000 years. This is simply saying that our perspective of time is not relevant to God. But it seems like the Bahai faith has made into a human perspective while ignoring some of the verses, and misunderstanding the language.

6. The Quran doesn't say anything about an adamic cycle. There is a distinction between Ayyam and Yawm and the proponents of this idea has not understood that simple matter. And taking names like Zoroaster, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Bab, Muhammed etc seems like someone is dropping names that are found here and there. I was told that men cannot understand this, so Bab being basically God himself knows this because he is what he is. But in that case, since the Qur'an says there were messengers sent to every nation, names we didnt know should have been dropped here, not only known names.

Its very very very rare to see objective answers to each question with analysis but honestly I expect some.

I would very much appreciate it. This is in no way is to insult any one and I would like to see some insight.

Peace.

Creation in the Holy Books is not always physical creation. It is creation of human civilization, meaning, training human to have certain attributes.

For example see Quran 55:1-3

"The Merciful One, has taught the Qur'an, has created man"

When we look at chronological order of events in these verses, it says, God taught the Quran, and then He created man!

The meaning becomes clear, when we realize, God by teaching Quran, He created a new human, known as Muslims. This is purely spiritual creation, that is spiritual training of humanity to create civilizations.

Also, within context, verses 32:4-5, which are about creation in 6 days, tells us, each day, is a 1000 years.

Also, "life" and "death" in Quran have spiritual meaning often. At the end of the world, life ends on earth, meaning, spiritually people die, or they become mislead. Metaphorically, the sun darkens. Light is symbol of guidance and knowledge. So, end of the world, is, when spirituality dies, and people become misguided. That is, the same in hadithes when it is said the earth is filled with injustice, then Mahdi comes to fill it with Justice.

 

[firedragon]

Creation in the Holy Books is not always physical creation. It is creation of human civilization, meaning, training human to have certain attributes.

Not according to the Qur'an that that's explained in the OP point 3. Maybe you didnt understand it.

For example see Quran 55:1-3

"The Merciful One, has taught the Qur'an, has created man"

When we look at chronological order of events in these verses, it says, God taught the Quran, and then He created man!

Not true. It doesnt say "allamal qur'an summa halakal insaan".

It doesnt say "he taught the Qur'an, then/afterwards he created man".

It says '

1. He taught the Quran
2. He created man.

Two different sentences. Doesnt say one after another. Your thesis is absolutely false.

 

[firedragon]

Creation in the Holy Books is not always physical creation. It is creation of human civilization, meaning, training human to have certain attributes.

For example see Quran 55:1-3

"The Merciful One, has taught the Qur'an, has created man"

When we look at chronological order of events in these verses, it says, God taught the Quran, and then He created man!

The meaning becomes clear, when we realize, God by teaching Quran, He created a new human, known as Muslims. This is purely spiritual creation, that is spiritual training of humanity to create civilizations.

Also, within context, verses 32:4-5, which are about creation in 6 days, tells us, each day, is a 1000 years.

Also, "life" and "death" in Quran have spiritual meaning often. At the end of the world, life ends on earth, meaning, spiritually people die, or they become mislead. Metaphorically, the sun darkens. Light is symbol of guidance and knowledge. So, end of the world, is, when spirituality dies, and people become misguided. That is, the same in hadithes when it is said the earth is filled with injustice, then Mahdi comes to fill it with Justice.

you did not address a single point in the OP.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

you did not address a single point in the OP.

Six ages, or six thousand years, was also understood by early Jewish, and Christians.

You might want to look here:

Six Ages of the World - Wikipedia

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not according to the Qur'an that that's explained in the OP point 3. Maybe you didnt understand it.



Not true. It doesnt say "allamal qur'an summa halakal insaan".

It doesnt say "he taught the Qur'an, then/afterwards he created man".

It says '

1. He taught the Quran
2. He created man.

Two different sentences. Doesnt say one after another. Your thesis is absolutely false.

Look at the verses 55:1 to 3,

They must be read together and their logic is, to read and understand them consecutively

Verse one says: "The Most Compassionate"

Next verse says, taught Quran

So, it must be understood as "The Most Compassionate, taught the Quran".

Does it make sense to you, if a verse independently says "The Most Compassionate"?

The Most Compassionate what?...


Likewise next verse, must be read together with those two:

"The Most Compassionate, taught Quran, created man."

Anyways, we can agree to disagree. I can give you info, and my views. Upto you what you want to make out of them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

@firedragon ,

I just wanted to give you a bit background, before I address your points in OP.

I will gradually address your points, one by one.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This came up in a completely irrelevant thread so I thought I would open up a thread for this topic alone, be it small or big, each topic needs its own respect and attention.

The Bahai claim seems to be this.

1. God says in the Qur'an that the creation of the universe took six days.
2. In another verse (e.g. 22:47) it says one day is a 1,000 days.
3. So this means God created this universe in 6,000 days? No, the Bahai's believe this is a spiritual creation.
4. And this creation story doesn't mean it was actually creation itself, it was 6 periods is 6 human cycles.
5. Not concluding this is a definite statement but one Bahai adherent also cited that its like "Christ, Moses, Buddha, Muhammad, Zoroaster, Krishna and the Bab.", the adamic cycle that include these figures.
6. This is the adamic cycle that ended with Muhammed

Well, these 6 points don't do justice and is definitely not comprehensive me being an absolute amateur in the Bahai faith. Thus, anyone could correct me easily.

My arguments against this will be as below.
1. In the creation account the word used for day is "Ayyam". In other verse 22:47 its Yowm. The latter is singular, and Ayyam is duel plural. So its definitely not the same, and never can be made to be absolute and count in numbers as the same thing. This point of view is invalid linguistically.

2. Though the Bahais believe this is a spiritual creation, not six days, and not an actual creation, and ended with Muhammed etc, the Quran says the creation or this 6 days ended prior to life and it is cited as the universe was created in six days (stages) and the conditions that made life possible on earth took place in last four stages (50:38; 41:10).

3. Earth or matter was built as said in the Quran as Khalakal ardha fee yawmayni (two periods) and then the determination of sustenance in four periods. So life did not exist prior to these so called "Periods" in the Qur'an so if creation ended with Muhammed, there should be pandemonium before him in a spiritual world of humanity which would mean there are no bones, no fossils, all just spiritual.

4. Quran also says that what we count as a 1000 days is just like one day for God. Now here, one thousand in arabic is "alf". But when the Quran says "Ka" which is called "Jarun wamajroorun" in arabic grammar which is a prefix that defines the attached proposition. It means "Like 1000. Not exactly 1000. Its an explanation to say that for God, a 1000 years for a mans count is "Like' one day" for God and vice versa, which means the person who is prosing this is either ignorant of the language of the time, or is inferring on purpose.

5. The Quran also says in verse 70:4 that one day in Gods reckoning is like 50,000 for men. So this verse is dropped in that idea of 1000 years. This is simply saying that our perspective of time is not relevant to God. But it seems like the Bahai faith has made into a human perspective while ignoring some of the verses, and misunderstanding the language.

6. The Quran doesn't say anything about an adamic cycle. There is a distinction between Ayyam and Yawm and the proponents of this idea has not understood that simple matter. And taking names like Zoroaster, Christ, Krishna, Buddha, Bab, Muhammed etc seems like someone is dropping names that are found here and there. I was told that men cannot understand this, so Bab being basically God himself knows this because he is what he is. But in that case, since the Qur'an says there were messengers sent to every nation, names we didnt know should have been dropped here, not only known names.

Its very very very rare to see objective answers to each question with analysis but honestly I expect some.

I would very much appreciate it. This is in no way is to insult any one and I would like to see some insight.

Peace.

Also, the idea of six ages, or six thousand years, is not something the Bahai believers came up with. It is found in Bahai Scriptures written by Bahaullah, and explained by Abdulbaha and Shoghi Effendi.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1. In the creation account the word used for day is "Ayyam". In other verse 22:47 its Yowm. The latter is singular, and Ayyam is duel plural. So its definitely not the same, and never can be made to be absolute and count in numbers as the same thing. This point of view is invalid linguistically.

So, if Quran wanted to say each day is to be counted as 1000 years, how should have said it linguistically?

In Arabic the plural of day is not days, like English. It is not made by just adding an 's' at the end. Its plural is just another word. So, it is what it is.

2. Though the Bahais believe this is a spiritual creation, not six days, and not an actual creation, and ended with Muhammed etc, the Quran says the creation or this 6 days ended prior to life and it is cited as the universe was created in six days (stages) and the conditions that made life possible on earth took place in last four stages (50:38; 41:10).

.

Even though verse 50:38, is a past tence, it does not mean creation that has ended.
Consider, verse 55:3. It says God taught the Quran, whereas at the time of revelation of this verse, Quran had not been completely revealed to humanity yet!



Verses in chapter 41 are obviously figurative. For example it says:

"Then He turned towards the heaven when it was ˹still like˺ smoke, saying to it and to the earth, ‘Submit, willingly or unwillingly.’ They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’"



Since when earth and heaven can understand and talk?

They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’"


These verses require TAWEEL. symbolic interpretation. They are those unclear verses, which Quran says in 3:7, none knows its interpretation except God....


In Bahai scriptures, interpetation of Mountain is a metaphor for religious leaders.
"Star" is a metaphor for the spiritually bright men as well as religious leaders.


But to take these verses literally would contredict with science.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

3. Earth or matter was built as said in the Quran as Khalakal ardha fee yawmayni (two periods) and then the determination of sustenance in four periods. So life did not exist prior to these so called "Periods" in the Qur'an so if creation ended with Muhammed, there should be pandemonium before him in a spiritual world of humanity which would mean there are no bones, no fossils, all just spiritual.
.

The Quran and previous scriptures talk about Two creations.

One creation is the creation in the six days, which is mentioned in the Bible, chapter of Genesis, and is reminded in the Quran chapter 32, verses 4 - 5.

The other creation, is the later creation, or the new creation, which is to happen on the Day of Resurrection. In the Bible it is referred as the new heaven and the new earth.

In the Quran, 50:15,

“Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!”

The first creation, is what we already discussed. The new creation, is the new heavens and earth to be created on the Day of Resurrection.

I suggest, the verses in Quran, chapter 41, are allusions to the new creation.

According to Bahai scriptures, the term heaven and earth symbolically mean religion of God. Thus, the new Heavens and earth to be created, symbolically is the Religion of God.
The creation of earth and the seven heavens in Two Days, are allusions to Two Days of God, namely manifestion of the Bab and Bahaullah. The mountains are the firm believers, and the stars are the spiritually bright men who would appear in the new Religion. It takes four days, for everything to become created, is an allusion to 4 periods:
Period 1: from the Bab to Bahaullah
Period 2: from Bahaullah to ministry of Abdulbaha
Period 3: from ministry of Abdulbaha to Shoghi Effendi
Period 4: from ministry of Shoghi Effendi until establishment of Universal House of Justice which marks the completion of religion of Bahai Faith.

 

[firedragon]

So, if Quran wanted to say each day is to be counted as 1000 years, how should have said it linguistically?

Maybe it should be something like "Yawmul halqi alf".

In Arabic the plural of day is not days, like English. It is not made by just adding an 's' at the end. Its plural is just another word. So, it is what it is.

It is what it is? Lol. And arabic plural is not with an 's at the end? Wow. Sis, is that an argument? You are trying to make a dual word equal to a singular, and a perfect tense into a future tense and now are you tutoring that arabic plural is not with an
's? I never expected that.

So tell me. Dont ignore this.
1. Please tell me how would you say "one day of creation is equivalent to a 1000 years" in arabic?
2. In that sentence if "day" is plural in arabic, how could one person put "One" before it? How could one be plural?

Lets hear your explanation.

Even though verse 50:38, is a past tence, it does not mean creation that has ended.
Consider, verse 55:3. It says God taught the Quran, whereas at the time of revelation of this verse, Quran had not been completely revealed to humanity yet!

First you said God taught the Quran before creating man which would have been before Adam. Now you are saying Quran has not been completely revealed.

Your analogy is false because it doesnt say "God taught the Quran in 6 days" and that its still ongoing. If God wanted to say creation is still ongoing he would have said it because this is very important theological points in the religion. One doesnt have to go so far to impose something that doesnt exist upon the text.

"Then He turned towards the heaven when it was ˹still like˺ smoke, saying to it and to the earth, ‘Submit, willingly or unwillingly.’ They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’"



Since when earth and heaven can understand and talk?

They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’"

So because this is metaphorical, you want the whole creation account as metaphorical, and that somehow makes it a 6000 year creation. This is the fallacy of composition/division imposed upon the text.

The thing is this. You are saying one part about mountains is metaphorical, but then when its convenient you are taking a thousand years as literal. Is not that double standard?

This is way too much inference.

The Quran and previous scriptures talk about Two creations.

One creation is the creation in the six days, which is mentioned in the Bible, chapter of Genesis, and is reminded in the Quran chapter 32, verses 4 - 5.

The other creation, is the later creation, or the new creation, which is to happen on the Day of Resurrection. In the Bible it is referred as the new heaven and the new earth.

In the Quran, 50:15,

“Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!”

The first creation, is what we already discussed. The new creation, is the new heavens and earth to be created on the Day of Resurrection.

I suggest, the verses in Quran, chapter 41, are allusions to the new creation.

According to Bahai scriptures, the term heaven and earth symbolically mean religion of God. Thus, the new Heavens and earth to be created, symbolically is the Religion of God.
The creation of earth and the seven heavens in Two Days, are allusions to Two Days of God, namely manifestion of the Bab and Bahaullah. The mountains are the firm believers, and the stars are the spiritually bright men who would appear in the new Religion. It takes four days, for everything to become created, is an allusion to 4 periods:

This is all pure inference. Nothing in the Quran. Catch a small worm and catch a large fish with it.

You took one verse that says "first creation" and decided that "there is a second creation".

Where in the Quran does it say "second creation"? Well, if you are making things up like that, why not go all the way? Why stop at second creation? Why not a third, and a fourth, and a fifth? This is like a trinitarian imposing a "three" to a particular number of "Plurals". When he wants, one plural will be three, the others are ignored. This is called a confirmation bias.

If you are taking the Bible also into the equation, the the Bible has two episodes of creation of man and Adam. In the septuagint you would see that one episode says "Anthropos" and the second "Adam". Nothing like that in the Qur'an. Also, the Bible specifically mentions that it is morning and evening, morning and evening, morning and evening, not "Ayyam" like the Qur'an. So how would you reconcile the morning and evening type of day, and the Ayyam in the Qur'an?