The Baha'i Faith's concept of "progressive" revelation

[CG Didymus]

Baha'u'llah claims that he is the return of every "promised" one of every religion. That includes all the big ones like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and, of course, Christianity. They don't say he came as the same physical person that was promised, but that he is the return in a metaphorical sense. They, the Baha'is, teach that all religions came from the one true God. And, they explain that the different religions were like the different grades in school... 1st grade, 2nd grade, etc. After we, that is humanity, "graduated" from one level, God sent another prophet or "manifestation" to teach us the new things necessary for an "ever advancing" civilization.

It kind of sounds good, in a way, but I don't see it. The religions are all so different. Maybe there are similarities between some religions, but I don't see how all of them "progress" smoothly to the next religion. Plus, it's hard for me to see how they could have all come from the same source. Yet, the Baha'i Faith says they do. Naturally, part of this progression includes that we recognize that the Baha'i Faith has brought new teachings from the one true God that are necessary to bring peace and unity to the world. Which would be nice, but is what they say true? Do you buy it? Do the prophecies in your religion point to the Baha'i Faith as their fulfillment? Is your religion merely one of the many parts of the long chain of progressive spiritual teachings?

 

[Desert Snake]

Baha'u'llah claims that he is the return of every "promised" one of every religion. That includes all the big ones like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and, of course, Christianity. They don't say he came as the same physical person that was promised, but that he is the return in a metaphorical sense. They, the Baha'is, teach that all religions came from the one true God.

This makes sense, as many religions claim to be all encompassing and basically 'compatible with all past enlightened masters who differed only according to the place where they "taught" ex. Jesus or Krishna both deific "teachers that were incorporated into a surrounding belief system this is not inconsistent with theological revelation.

And, they explain that the different religions were like the different grades in school... 1st grade, 2nd grade, etc. After we, that is humanity, "graduated" from one level, God sent another prophet or "manifestation" to teach us the new things necessary for an "ever advancing" civilization.

Interesting, I didn't realize that however if they mean it metaphorically that might be a necessity when presenting ;new; teachings but what is 'new' anyways if we examine ancient texts we see the same themes recurring.

It kind of sounds good, in a way, but I don't see it. The religions are all so different. Maybe there are similarities between some religions, but I don't see how all of them "progress" smoothly to the next religion. Plus, it's hard for me to see how they could have all come from the same source. Yet, the Baha'i Faith says they do.

It isn't just the Ba'Hai who say that, many religious people say that in fact excepting perhaps harsh R.Catholic and some other church doctrine that is quite "normal" way of viewing it often inconsistancies with this viewpoint come from very 'set' religious groups as in very staunch Hindu or muslim sects, that often involve more a 'real world' attachment to their culture i.e. they are utilizing religion to in fact promote their culture this is in fact not religious.

Naturally, part of this progression includes that we recognize that the Baha'i Faith has brought new teachings from the one true God that are necessary to bring peace and unity to the world. Which would be nice, but is what they say true? Do you buy it? Do the prophecies in your religion point to the Baha'i Faith as their fulfillment? Is your religion merely one of the many parts of the long chain of progressive spiritual teachings?

I have rad a scant amount about the Ba'Hai faith, what I did read seemed actually to be in line with a positive movement I'm not in a cultural position to examine all those ramifications however when I read posts made by BaHai menbers on RF in fact I tend to agree with them to a point I like the fact that they are setting new precedence with a positive outlook and don't seem oversly dependent on other scripture, just my .02$

 

[CG Didymus]

It isn't just the Ba'Hai who say that, many religious people say that in fact excepting perhaps harsh R.Catholic and some other church doctrine that is quite "normal" way of viewing it often inconsistancies with this viewpoint come from very 'set' religious groups as in very staunch Hindu or muslim sects, that often involve more a 'real world' attachment to their culture i.e. they are utilizing religion to in fact promote their culture this is in fact not religious.

Hey Disciple, good to hear from you. What I think is going on is that different cultures do have different religious traditions that reflect and support that culture. So is religion progressive because God made it that way? Or, are people in the different cultures evolving and progressing and adapting their religions, and their concept of God, to meet the changing world? Then, of course, there are those that dig in their heels and see changes in society as a bad thing and call for a return to the "fundamentals" of their religion.

So at one end of the spectrum there are those that see the "oneness" and good in all religions. Then there are those that interpret their religion in a very literal and strict way and see themselves and their religion as the "only" true way. That then makes all the other religions either false from the beginning or true at one time but now being replaced by the new, improved religion. Like from Judaism to Christianity then from Christianity to Islam and from Islam to the Baha'i Faith, I just don't see a smooth transition at all. Each can stand alone very well and the teachings of one doesn't fall or progress that well into the next.

However, if we are speaking in very basic terms, then all religions, in their intent and purpose, are very similar. But then the problem is, who made them so complicated and different at the next level up from the basics? I could see the differences being man-made. That people, in their culturally biased interpretation, of truth and God made them so complicated. But not if all religions and their Holy Books supposedly came from the same God. Anyway, thanks Disciple for your comments.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

......Like from Judaism to Christianity then from Christianity to Islam and from Islam to the Baha'i Faith, I just don't see a smooth transition at all. Each can stand alone very well and the teachings of one doesn't fall or progress that well into the next.... .

So you are saying that if these religions were really from God, then there must have been a smooth transition from one to the next, in a sense that all the followers of previous religion must have accepted the next religion with no problem, right?

Again, lets go back to the analogy of successive school grades. do all pass the test to go to the next grade? Obviously no. It all depends if they have understood it, and passed the test. Religion is similar. One of the main purpose of God, according to religions is to test and approve mankind. The true understanding of religion is perhaps the most difficult of all.

I quote Baha'u'llah on this:

“Verily Our Word is abstruse, bewilderingly abstruse.” In another instance, it is said: “Our Cause is sorely trying, highly perplexing; none can bear it except a favorite of heaven, or an inspired Prophet, or he whose faith God hath tested.” These leaders of religion admit that none of these three specified conditions is applicable to them. The first two conditions are manifestly beyond their reach; as to the third, it is evident that at no time have they been proof against those tests that have been sent by God, and that when the divine Touchstone appeared, they have shown themselves to be naught but dross.
Great God! Notwithstanding their acceptance of the truth of this tradition, these divines who are still doubtful of, and dispute about, the theological obscurities of their faith, yet claim to be the exponents of the subtleties of the law of God, and the expounders of the essential mysteries of His holy Word."

- Book of Certitude, p.26

"The understanding of His words and the comprehension of the utterances of the Birds of Heaven are in no wise dependent upon human learning. They depend solely upon purity of heart, chastity of soul, and freedom of spirit. This is evidenced by those who, today, though without a single letter of the accepted standards of learning, are occupying the loftiest seats of knowledge; and the garden of their hearts is adorned, through the showers of divine grace, with the roses of wisdom and the tulips of understanding. Well is it with the sincere in heart for their share of the light of a mighty Day!"

Book of Certitude, p.65

 

[arthra]

While the various religions have differences ... many of these can be explained by the culture and isolation some of them have had over centuries of time.. but when you have say inter-faith gatherings the various religious groups also have areas of agreement and solidarity.

 

[CG Didymus]

So you are saying that if these religions were really from God, then there must have been a smooth transition from one to the next, in a sense that all the followers of previous religion must have accepted the next religion with no problem, right?

Again, lets go back to the analogy of successive school grades. do all pass the test to go to the next grade? Obviously no. It all depends if they have understood it, and passed the test. Religion is similar. One of the main purpose of God, according to religions is to test and approve mankind. The true understanding of religion is perhaps the most difficult of all.

Let's add in the Baha'i analogy of the manifestations being like a lamp. The lamps are different but the source of the light is the same. So the problem I'm having is that in ancient times some religions called for the gods to be appeased by sacrificing people. Were those religions from God? Was that the 1st grade? Or, were those man's attempt at understanding and explaining the world around them? They saw the mystical in visions and dreams. They saw plants and animals grow and die. They saw the sun rise and fall. How did they explain it? Did a true manifestation teach them what to do? Or, did their holy men decide that cutting out a virgins heart or throwing somebody into a volcano is the thing to do?

So grade two... the people that sacrificed animals? Did God really need a spotless lamb to be slain? Did he really need people to be stoned to death for breaking his Laws? Did he really flood the whole world and killed off everything but Noah and his family? Or, were these borrowed and/or handed down traditions that were used and changed around and adapted to fit those people's culture? So not necessarily from God, but coming from man's ever-changing notions of who and what God is?

So, if all main religions came from God, where did minor religions come from? What was the lesson we had to learn from Hinduism compared to Buddhism? And then, compare them to Judaism? The religions and the people that live by them lived side by side and were probably in some cases contemporaries to each other. Religions keep changing. They change from within and change when they spread to different cultures. People do the changing... through reformers and prophets within the religion. Or, they change from reacting by being influenced by other religions.

So whether or not there is one and only one God, who's been doing the progressing and deciding who and what is truth? I think the differences in religion are mostly from us. And, I know, you kind of allude to that same thing with Christianity when you say that the followers didn't understand the message correctly. They took it too literal. But, then again, what was that message? Was it from God? Or, was it Judaism mixed with concepts from other cultures and religions? Satan/Hades/the devil, hell and eternal punishment, a virgin born God/man? Are these from God? The same God that taught the Jews what the truth was? The same God that had Krishna teach reincarnation?

If you say "yes" that people are clueless. That they did the best they could to understand the spiritual world, but they were wrong. And, that we should take the best of all the religions and update the "truth", then I could agree with that. I could agree that the intent of all religions as being for the good of their people. But that's a lot different than saying that all religions came from the same source and progress one to another. Thanks for your time on this and Arthra's also.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Let's add in the Baha'i analogy of the manifestations being like a lamp. The lamps are different but the source of the light is the same. So the problem I'm having is that in ancient times some religions called for the gods to be appeased by sacrificing people. Were those religions from God? Was that the 1st grade? Or, were those man's attempt at understanding and explaining the world around them? They saw the mystical in visions and dreams. They saw plants and animals grow and die. They saw the sun rise and fall. How did they explain it? Did a true manifestation teach them what to do? Or, did their holy men decide that cutting out a virgins heart or throwing somebody into a volcano is the thing to do?

So grade two... the people that sacrificed animals? Did God really need a spotless lamb to be slain? Did he really need people to be stoned to death for breaking his Laws? Did he really flood the whole world and killed off everything but Noah and his family? Or, were these borrowed and/or handed down traditions that were used and changed around and adapted to fit those people's culture? So not necessarily from God, but coming from man's ever-changing notions of who and what God is?

So, if all main religions came from God, where did minor religions come from? What was the lesson we had to learn from Hinduism compared to Buddhism? And then, compare them to Judaism? The religions and the people that live by them lived side by side and were probably in some cases contemporaries to each other. Religions keep changing. They change from within and change when they spread to different cultures. People do the changing... through reformers and prophets within the religion. Or, they change from reacting by being influenced by other religions.

So whether or not there is one and only one God, who's been doing the progressing and deciding who and what is truth? I think the differences in religion are mostly from us. And, I know, you kind of allude to that same thing with Christianity when you say that the followers didn't understand the message correctly. They took it too literal. But, then again, what was that message? Was it from God? Or, was it Judaism mixed with concepts from other cultures and religions? Satan/Hades/the devil, hell and eternal punishment, a virgin born God/man? Are these from God? The same God that taught the Jews what the truth was? The same God that had Krishna teach reincarnation?

If you say "yes" that people are clueless. That they did the best they could to understand the spiritual world, but they were wrong. And, that we should take the best of all the religions and update the "truth", then I could agree with that. I could agree that the intent of all religions as being for the good of their people. But that's a lot different than saying that all religions came from the same source and progress one to another. Thanks for your time on this and Arthra's also.

From what I 'personally' understand, the Baha'i Scriptures teach that human has been going through stages, similar to what evolution theory explains...so at one point we could have even looked like a fish or a worm, yet we were a distinct specie, as human's spirit is different from animals. God always guided us through His manifestations among us, and therefore even if billions years ago we were like a worm, a Manifestation like a worm had appeared among us to guide us, in that level. God never left us alone to our selves, He always manifested Himself among us....But as regards to History, we only know after the Days of Adam, and even after that not all scriptures of Prophets survived to this date. Even the original scriptures of Buddhism, or Hinduism are not available today, because these scriptures that are available were not written by the hands of the Manifestation, but were collected generations after, and they could be significantly effected by interpretations of individuals, therefore we cannot make a definitive conclusion what the 'original' teachings of older religions were.....Therefore we can only investigate the more recent ones, to ensure we are reading actually what was revealed by the Manifestation, and not what the religious leaders had explained according to their understanding. The only scriptures we can be sure of their Authenticity and accuracy are Quran and Baha'i Scriptures. Then New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are also legitimate, but contain some minor inaccuracies....so, what I am getting is that, we need to consider these points, and count them into our reasoning.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Even the original scriptures of Buddhism, or Hinduism are not available today, because these scriptures that are available were not written by the hands of the Manifestation, but were collected generations after, and they could be significantly effected by interpretations of individuals, therefore we cannot make a definitive conclusion what the 'original' teachings of older religions were.....Therefore we can only investigate the more recent ones, to ensure we are reading actually what was revealed by the Manifestation, and not what the religious leaders had explained according to their understanding. The only scriptures we can be sure of their Authenticity and accuracy are Quran and Baha'i Scriptures. Then New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are also legitimate, but contain some minor inaccuracies....so, what I am getting is that, we need to consider these points, and count them into our reasoning.

Lots of scriptures have been written after the Quran and the Baha'i scriptures and are surely better preserved.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Lots of scriptures have been written after the Quran and the Baha'i scriptures and are surely better preserved.

We don't believe that every scripture is divinely inspired. You already know, Baha'u'llah said no new revelation comes after His, unless 1000 years is passed.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

We don't believe that every scripture is divinely inspired. You already know, Baha'u'llah said no new revelation comes after His, unless 1000 years is passed.

Yes, I understand it's the Baha'i belief, but it's not the belief of most others.

 

[CG Didymus]

...Again, lets go back to the analogy of successive school grades. do all pass the test to go to the next grade? Obviously no. It all depends if they have understood it, and passed the test. Religion is similar. One of the main purpose of God, according to religions is to test and approve mankind. The true understanding of religion is perhaps the most difficult of all.

Who and how did anyone pass the test of the previous "teachings" of the manifestation? In many cases people were dissatisfied with the religion they were born in. So they sort of played "hooky" from class and went to the next grade. Tribal people went from idol worshipers, Sun worshiper, or even from doing human sacrifices straight to being "converted" to one of the Christian denominations, lots of times by force. Nomadic people went straight into Islam. Jews and others were given the "choice" either convert or die. There's very little "passing" the test of the previous religion going on.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Who and how did anyone pass the test of the previous "teachings" of the manifestation? In many cases people were dissatisfied with the religion they were born in. So they sort of played "hooky" from class and went to the next grade. Tribal people went from idol worshipers, Sun worshiper, or even from doing human sacrifices straight to being "converted" to one of the Christian denominations, lots of times by force. Nomadic people went straight into Islam. Jews and others were given the "choice" either convert or die. There's very little "passing" the test of the previous religion going on.

Those who were marthyred for their belief. Example: 20,000 early Babi and Baha'I believers who were marthyred. The early Christians who were marthyed. The early Muslims who got Marthyrd. These definately passed the test.

 

[BruceDLimber]

The religions are all so different. Maybe there are similarities between some religions, but I don't see how all of them "progress" smoothly to the next religion. Plus, it's hard for me to see how they could have all come from the same source.

The progresion isn't always smooth, but that's more a function of the limitations of various humans than any defect in God and His Revelation.

But there indeed being only One God, all the great religions have indeed sprung from Him.

And as the Baha'i scriptures explain,

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. Arise and, armed with the power of faith, shatter to pieces the gods of your vain imaginings, the sowers of dissension amongst you. Cleave unto that which draweth you together and uniteth you."

—(Gleanings, CXI, pp. 217-8)


Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

Roughly in our view religious revelations have been linked to advances made over time...

Abdul-Baha made the following statement in an address in 1912:

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation. This is a century of life and renewal. Sciences and arts, industry and invention have been reformed. Law and ethics have been reconstituted, reorganized. The world of thought has been regenerated. Sciences of former ages and philosophies of the past are useless today. Present exigencies demand new methods of solution; world problems are without precedent. Old ideas and modes of thought are fast becoming obsolete. Ancient laws and archaic ethical systems will not meet the requirements of modern conditions, for this is clearly the century of a new life, the century of the revelation of the reality and therefore the greatest of all centuries.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 82

 

[CG Didymus]

Those who were marthyred for their belief. Example: 20,000 early Babi and Baha'I believers who were marthyred. The early Christians who were marthyed. The early Muslims who got Marthyrd. These definately passed the test.

The religions that sacrificed humans, what did those martyred for their religion learn. Those that didn't convert to Christianity during the inquisition, did they pass the test? With the example of the Jews, they remained the older religion and refused to make the switch to the newer one, Christianity, but let themselves be tortured to death. Early Christians got martyred, according to the Baha'i interpretation, for their "wrong" belief that Jesus had risen from the dead. How is that "passing" the test? Some people call a suicide bomber a "martyr" while others call him a "terrorist." Some people drink poison for their religion in ritual suicide. People have died for the wrong beliefs and for wrong reasons. What is the test and who really passed it?

 

[CG Didymus]

Roughly in our view religious revelations have been linked to advances made over time...

Abdul-Baha made the following statement in an address in 1912:

Religion is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive. If it be without motion and non-progressive it is without the divine life; it is dead. The divine institutes are continuously active and evolutionary; therefore the revelation of them must be progressive and continuous. All things are subject to re-formation. This is a century of life and renewal. Sciences and arts, industry and invention have been reformed. Law and ethics have been reconstituted, reorganized. The world of thought has been regenerated. Sciences of former ages and philosophies of the past are useless today. Present exigencies demand new methods of solution; world problems are without precedent. Old ideas and modes of thought are fast becoming obsolete. Ancient laws and archaic ethical systems will not meet the requirements of modern conditions, for this is clearly the century of a new life, the century of the revelation of the reality and therefore the greatest of all centuries.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 82

There's a lot of bad science out there. People are still devising new and better ways to "protect" themselves, and their interests, and kill the enemy. The simple test of "Love your neighbor as yourself" still hasn't been passed.

And speaking of "archaic" laws and ethical systems, the Baha'i Faith has strict laws against non-married, to each other, couples having sex. It has laws forbidding gay sex. Those are things the "modern" world seems to be promoting... in opposition to the "out-dated" ways of thinking that are promoted by "fundamentalist" religious types. So is there such a thing as "gay rights"? Can non-married people "hook-up"? When you say religion has been like going to school, has anybody passed the sex-ed class yet? If the Baha'i had control of the world government, would they make gay couples get divorced? Would they tell them they have a mental or spiritual disorder?

 

[Muffled]

Baha'u'llah claims that he is the return of every "promised" one of every religion. That includes all the big ones like Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism and, of course, Christianity. They don't say he came as the same physical person that was promised, but that he is the return in a metaphorical sense. They, the Baha'is, teach that all religions came from the one true God. And, they explain that the different religions were like the different grades in school... 1st grade, 2nd grade, etc. After we, that is humanity, "graduated" from one level, God sent another prophet or "manifestation" to teach us the new things necessary for an "ever advancing" civilization.

It kind of sounds good, in a way, but I don't see it. The religions are all so different. Maybe there are similarities between some religions, but I don't see how all of them "progress" smoothly to the next religion. Plus, it's hard for me to see how they could have all come from the same source. Yet, the Baha'i Faith says they do. Naturally, part of this progression includes that we recognize that the Baha'i Faith has brought new teachings from the one true God that are necessary to bring peace and unity to the world. Which would be nice, but is what they say true? Do you buy it? Do the prophecies in your religion point to the Baha'i Faith as their fulfillment? Is your religion merely one of the many parts of the long chain of progressive spiritual teachings?

I believe Baha'i to be a progression from Islam to Chritianity but of course if one gets stuck there one doesn't make it to chritianity.

 

[BruceDLimber]

If the Baha'i had control of the world government, would they make gay couples get divorced? Would they tell them they have a mental or spiritual disorder?

No, because Baha'i law applies only to Baha'is.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Muffled]

No, because Baha'i law applies only to Baha'is.

Simple as that.

Peace,

Bruce

I doubt very much that God is going to excuse Baha'is for ignoring His law simply because they don't have it in their own scriptures.

 

[CG Didymus]

... God always guided us through His manifestations among us....But as regards to History, we only know after the Days of Adam, and even after that not all scriptures of Prophets survived to this date. Even the original scriptures of Buddhism, or Hinduism are not available today, because these scriptures that are available were not written by the hands of the Manifestation, but were collected generations after, and they could be significantly effected by interpretations of individuals, therefore we cannot make a definitive conclusion what the 'original' teachings of older religions were.....Therefore we can only investigate the more recent ones, to ensure we are reading actually what was revealed by the Manifestation, and not what the religious leaders had explained according to their understanding. The only scriptures we can be sure of their Authenticity and accuracy are Quran and Baha'i Scriptures. Then New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are also legitimate, but contain some minor inaccuracies..

Hmmm? So the "text books" of how we know about God and truth "could be significantly effected by interpretations"? So are they the "Word of God" or the word of man? And when you say the " New Testament and Hebrew Scriptures are also legitimate, but contain some minor inaccuracies"? Hmmm? Already you say that Jesus spoke in a figurative language that only Baha'u'llah could interpret. But on top of that there are some things that aren't accurate? Like what? The flood, 6 day creation, the Sabbath being forever, Jesus being killed on the cross then resurrecting?

Obviously, if the Baha'i Faith is correct, then the books used by Jews and Christians are pointing their followers toward the wrong direction. If the Quran is accurate than a look-a-like died on the cross for Jesus? If the Baha'i Faith is correct he didn't physically rise from the dead. So every thing written about seeing and touching the risen Jesus is wrong? When Paul says that if Christ hasn't risen from the dead that they are following an empty religion?

Now if you talk about people and cultures evolving and changing their beliefs to better suit the times, that's different. I totally agree with you, but you're not. You're saying that, somehow, all religions agree. Yet, you say that we really don't know what the early "manifestations" really taught. So then all religions accept Islam and the Baha'i Faith are, essentially, teaching things that were originally from the one true God, but are now they have been misinterpreted by man. So pretty much, they are all wrong?