The Atonement- Justice, or the Opposite?

[Many Sages One Truth]

Greetings friends!

I would put forth here the argument that the Christian dogma of the atonement goes against every idea we have of moral justice.

Thoughts?

Namaste

 

[rockstarwife628]

As a Christian who rejects the idea of the Atonement, I agree.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

As a Christian who rejects the idea of the Atonement, I agree.

Seeing as you reject the atonement, I wonder if you do have some view on the crucifixion, like did it hold any significance whatsoever? Just curious what your view is

 

[lunamoth]

Greetings friends!

I would put forth here the argument that the Christian dogma of the atonement goes against every idea we have of moral justice.

Thoughts?

Namaste

What do you think the "Christian dogma of atonement" is? There are many different ideas about what atonement is in Christianity.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

What do you think the "Christian dogma of atonement" is? There are many different ideas about what atonement is in Christianity.

That may be a fair point. However, the one I usually hear put forth is that Jesus died to take the punishment for sin, so that all you ultimately have to do is have faith in the atoning act.

 

[lunamoth]

That may be a fair point. However, the one I usually hear put forth is that Jesus died to take the punishment for sin, so that all you ultimately have to do is have faith in the atoning act.

If the atoning act is being one with Christ, then salvation comes from realizing this.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

If the atoning act is being one with Christ, then salvation comes from realizing this.

Wouldn't this then render the crucifixion unnecessary though if the atonement is just oneness with Christ? Btw, that's a definition I could agree with.

 

[lunamoth]

Wouldn't this then render the crucifixion unnecessary though if the atonement is just oneness with Christ? Btw, that's a definition I could agree with.

One part of the cost of being a human is death. I don't think the crucifixion was necessary - Jesus could have died peacefully in his bed of old age to the same effect. However, the cost of his ministry was the crucifixion. Because it happened that way, the sacrificial images became part of theology.

 

[Crandle]

Of course atonement goes against our idea of moral justice.

In our moral justice the one who commits the crimes pays the fine.
In God's moral justice, we commit the crime and he pays the fine.

Its outrageous, outrageously awesome!

 

[*Deleted*]

Jesus' dying and rising has much (huge amount actually) in common with dying/rising savior myths of the region. Almost didn't win out over the cult of Mithras. Constantine hoped to save the empire but Christianity lived on after the empire fell. Constantine gave it that. Few are taught that either.

 

[rockstarwife628]

Seeing as you reject the atonement, I wonder if you do have some view on the crucifixion, like did it hold any significance whatsoever? Just curious what your view is

Haha, to be honest, I believe the crucifixion just shows Jesus' commitment to his message/teachings, that he was willing to see them through even to the ultimate end. His message was one that was highly politically charged, so I think that had a lot to do with why he was crucified.

But I don't believe his death was Divinely determined or planned. I just believe it was a natural consequence of the political environment at the time, if that makes any sense.

 

[rockstarwife628]

If the atoning act is being one with Christ, then salvation comes from realizing this.

I see the idea of "atonement" as "at-one-ment" too, and believe that following his teachings helps us to be "at one" with God (and even our fellow man). (I know you know this Lunamoth, because of the other thread - so repeating it was more for OP's benefit, lol)

 

[smidjit]

Greetings friends!

I would put forth here the argument that the Christian dogma of the atonement goes against every idea we have of moral justice.

Thoughts?

Namaste

An incarnate God choosing to display the depth of his love for his creation by taking the bullet for them. No greater love is there, than that a man would lay down his life for his friends.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Many Sages and Rock Star, I find it regrettable that while each of you displays the symbols of multiple religions in your logo, unfortunately neither of you includes the Baha'i nine-pointed star!

This symbol is all the easier to locate given that it's the capital "R" in the Wingdings font, so I do hope you'll expand your circles a bit and include it also!

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Many Sages and Rock Star, I find it regrettable that while each of you displays the symbols of multiple religions in your logo, unfortunately neither of you includes the Baha'i nine-pointed star!

This symbol is all the easier to locate given that it's the capital "R" in the Wingdings font, so I do hope you'll expand your circles a bit and include it also!

Best regards,

Bruce

Yeah sorry Bruce, I meant no offense. I do respect the Baha'i faith and Baha'ullah also, don't get the wrong idea. It's just that I didn't want a avatar that's hard to see because it tries to fit a whole bunch of symbols.

 

[sojourner]

One part of the cost of being a human is death. I don't think the crucifixion was necessary - Jesus could have died peacefully in his bed of old age to the same effect. However, the cost of his ministry was the crucifixion. Because it happened that way, the sacrificial images became part of theology.

Very, very well-put. Your explanation is concise, tight, and theologically sound. Frubals.

 

[sojourner]

If the atoning act is being one with Christ, then salvation comes from realizing this.

And the atoning act of being one with Christ has already been effected through God's very act of becoming human.

 

[doppelganger]

One part of the cost of being a human is death.

Which, for the record, is still part of the entrance fee. It's death that makes life beautiful.

Does clinging to belief in immortality make life ugly?

I kinda think it does.

 

[sojourner]

Which, for the record, is still part of the entrance fee. It's death that makes life beautiful.

Does clinging to belief in immortality make life ugly?

I kinda think it does.

Interesting take.

 

[Willamena]

Wouldn't this then render the crucifixion unnecessary though if the atonement is just oneness with Christ? Btw, that's a definition I could agree with.

As a symbol, its necessity rests in its power to bring people to realization.