The "as-if" frame

[vijeno]

Disclaimer: I really don't know where to put this. For me, it's somewhere on the intersection of religion, spirituality, and psychology.

Most (almost all?) of the debates on religion are about what is actually, factually TRUE. Fair enough. Understandable enough. Did Jesus say that? Is the Qur'an true? Does one have to say the evening shema, if one already fell asleep in the beisl? Of course those questions matter to people. I have taken part in those debates, and I have learned a lot from them.

However, sometimes I wonder if another approach might be more fruitful. I call it the "as-if" approach or the "as-if-frame".

The idea is that one can live as if something was true, even if one does not believe in it. Don't ask if it is true, ask what it would do with you if it were true.

Let me give you an example: The "mirror law" or "law of attraction".

I do not believe in that. At all.

But whenever I manage to see a challenge as a reflection of my own inner fights, I can relax, I can let go, can take more responsibility, and things get easier.

I experience a similar effect with chakras: I don't think they "exist", but even so, using them for focus makes a lot of sense and helps me guide the "energy" in meditation.

Maybe one can do the same for christianity? Live to become more Christ-like, even if one might not believe Jesus ever existed?

Live as if the noble eightfold path led to enlightenment, even though one might reject the notion of enlightenment altogether?

I'm not saying that this is the right way to see religion. (That would be a might ironic in this context!) All I'm saying, is that this might be an interesting path to
explore. Rather on a psychological level, so to speak.

(The examples above are ONLY for illustration. This thread is not about whether Jesus is the saviour or not, or whether the buddha existed. It's about a mindset that I find potentially worthy of exploration.)

Or maybe this is just another expression of "philosophia perennia"? My personal re-discovery of an ancient idea?

Thoughts?

 

[Heyo]

Disclaimer: I really don't know where to put this. For me, it's somewhere on the intersection of religion, spirituality, and psychology.

Most (almost all?) of the debates on religion are about what is actually, factually TRUE. Fair enough. Understandable enough. Did Jesus say that? Is the Qur'an true? Does one have to say the evening shema, if one already fell asleep in the beisl? Of course those questions matter to people. I have taken part in those debates, and I have learned a lot from them.

However, sometimes I wonder if another approach might be more fruitful. I call it the "as-if" approach or the "as-if-frame".

The idea is that one can live as if something was true, even if one does not believe in it. Don't ask if it is true, ask what it would do with you if it were true.

Let me give you an example: The "mirror law" or "law of attraction".

I do not believe in that. At all.

But whenever I manage to see a challenge as a reflection of my own inner fights, I can relax, I can let go, can take more responsibility, and things get easier.

I experience a similar effect with chakras: I don't think they "exist", but even so, using them for focus makes a lot of sense and helps me guide the "energy" in meditation.

Maybe one can do the same for christianity? Live to become more Christ-like, even if one might not believe Jesus ever existed?

Live as if the noble eightfold path led to enlightenment, even though one might reject the notion of enlightenment altogether?

I'm not saying that this is the right way to see religion. (That would be a might ironic in this context!) All I'm saying, is that this might be an interesting path to
explore. Rather on a psychological level, so to speak.

(The examples above are ONLY for illustration. This thread is not about whether Jesus is the saviour or not, or whether the buddha existed. It's about a mindset that I find potentially worthy of exploration.)

Or maybe this is just another expression of "philosophia perennia"? My personal re-discovery of an ancient idea?

Thoughts?

I like pen'n'paper role playing games. That is also acting "as if". And I have learned a bit about pagan practices from friends. I don't believe in magic, at least not in "physical" magic. But, like you have described with the chakras, I believe in "psychological" magic. Which led to ironic situations when my pagan, magic-believing friends asked me for advice how to do magic.

 

[vijeno]

Which led to ironic situations when my pagan, magic-believing friends asked me for advice how to do magic.

Haha, I didn't even think about that. I'm sure I'll end up in situations in which I will think back to this conversation and have a bit of a chuckle!

 

[Aupmanyav]

However, sometimes I wonder if another approach might be more fruitful. I call it the "as-if" approach or the "as-if-frame".

if i can live without 'as if', then what is the use of 'as if'? no problem if others use 'as if', though i see that as a bit funny.

 

[vijeno]

if i can live without 'as if', then what is the use of 'as if'?

Hehe, good point!

Well first off, I simply like playing around with ideas like that, so I don't necessarily have an answer ready to shoot out...

A few potential benefits come to mind though:

* It might be a way to "test" an idea for a while, without adopting it.
* It might be an exercise in empathy - as in "hmm, I wonder how it feels for a muslim".
* It might be the way some ancient mythological texts were meant to be read - such as the chakras, see the link in my OP.
* It's a fun thought experiment.
* It may take away some of the dogmatic obduracy and anger that plague our online debates.

I have a vague inkling that there might be a psychological benefit to it, akin to "gamifying life" and not taking oneself too seriously.

 

[Aupmanyav]

* It might be a way to "test" an idea for a while, without adopting it.
* It might be an exercise in empathy - as in "hmm, I wonder how it feels for a muslim".
* It might be the way some ancient mythological texts were meant to be read - such as the chakras, see the link in my OP.
* It's a fun thought experiment.
* It may take away some of the dogmatic obduracy and anger that plague our online debates.

* for me, unnecessary.
* imho, those who believe in god and messengers are misguided. some of their rules fall short of what is considered fair today.
* most ancient texts are false and superstitious, chakras being an example. their ethics and morals belong to society. they did not invent them.
* sure, have fun. i could not stick with what was apparently falsehood.
* dogmatic religions cannot leave their dogmatism, like evolution is wrong and god created men from soil or dirt.

 

[bobhikes]

As a seeker of the truth, I have come to the understanding that you have no need to seek the truth, living your life as is can be very rewarding and good. The problem comes when you preach version of living as the truth. So, you can have a happy fulling life living as is, it is only a problem if you try to influence others to your path.

 

[MikeF]

Hehe, good point!

Well first off, I simply like playing around with ideas like that, so I don't necessarily have an answer ready to shoot out...

A few potential benefits come to mind though:

* It might be a way to "test" an idea for a while, without adopting it.
* It might be an exercise in empathy - as in "hmm, I wonder how it feels for a muslim".
* It might be the way some ancient mythological texts were meant to be read - such as the chakras, see the link in my OP.
* It's a fun thought experiment.
* It may take away some of the dogmatic obduracy and anger that plague our online debates.

I have a vague inkling that there might be a psychological benefit to it, akin to "gamifying life" and not taking oneself too seriously.

What would you list as the potential negatives to this approach, especially over the long term?

What are the consequences of indoctrinating successive generations into treating an "as-if" frame as fact?

 

[MikeF]

As a seeker of the truth, I have come to the understanding that you have no need to seek the truth, living your life as is can be very rewarding and good. The problem comes when you preach version of living as the truth. So, you can have a happy fulling life living as is, it is only a problem if you try to influence others to your path.

Isn't that what every parent does automatically with their child though? How the problem you describe to be addressed in this regard? It also seems to be built into many institutional religions, yes?

 

[bobhikes]

Isn't that what every parent does automatically with their child though? How the problem you describe to be addressed in this regard? It also seems to be built into many institutional religions, yes?

Maybe they don't have children and even if they do they can (I did and still do) allow their children to find their own way. I also believe institutional religions are problematic, but this is about a seeker (an individual) and not an institution.

 

[MikeF]

Maybe they don't have children and even if they do they can (I did and still do) allow their children to find their own way. I also believe institutional religions are problematic, but this is about a seeker (an individual) and not an institution.

Well, lot's of folks do have children, as evidenced by the size of the global population. Of that, what percentage of those alive today were allowed to find their own way to understanding uninfluenced by beliefs of their parents, their community, and the culture to which they belong? Don't these influences have lasting affects on many of us?

Any adult individual will have already been socialized and indoctrinated to some degree, and I would suggest heavily for many. This can't help but impact how "freely" one can find their own way.

 

[bobhikes]

Well, lot's of folks do have children, as evidenced by the size of the global population. Of that, what percentage of those alive today were allowed to find their own way to understanding uninfluenced by beliefs of their parents, their community, and the culture to which they belong? Don't these influences have lasting affects on many of us?

Any adult individual will have already been socialized and indoctrinated to some degree, and I would suggest heavily for many. This can't help but impact how "freely" one can find their own way.

Whatever you believe this is the Seekers forum. Are you trying to indoctrinate seekers to your own beliefs.

 

[MikeF]

Whatever you believe this is the Seekers forum. Are you trying to indoctrinate seekers to your own beliefs.

Hmmmmm. No, that would not be my intent. Are you saying that socialization is a belief rather than an observed phenomenon in any society or social grouping?

 

[Quintessence]

Welcome to every religion that understands religion is about mythos, not logos (which is most of them). Put another way, welcome to every religion that understands religion is an art, not science.

 

[vijeno]

What would you list as the potential negatives to this approach, especially over the long term?

Dis-association, de-realisation, de-personalisation. It feels a bit to me like seeing life as a kind of "videogame". Which is cool, because it removes pressure, but if you take it too far it's probably not so good.

What are the consequences of indoctrinating successive generations into treating an "as-if" frame as fact?

The same as every other idea when it turns into dogma: Judgment, groupthink, superficiality, erosion into "churchism", or another "ism".

 

[vijeno]

Welcome to every religion that understands religion is about mythos, not logos

Haha, yeah, I guess it's kind of my own personal, psychologizing rephrasing of that idea.