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the argument for the resurrection

brokensymmetry

ground state
There is a thread here which has gotten into this and has inspired me to rethink this argument in some detail. Originally, considerations about this argument persuaded me to become a Christian in the first place. I want to lay out the basic argument that persuaded me, then explain where I think it is lacking. If nothing else I will have a better grasp on my own thoughts on the matter.

It typically goes as follows. First is the attempt to establish using ordinary historical criteria, that you could apply to any history, some historical facts relevant to the matter. Next is the proposing of hypotheses to explain the body of facts. Last is some abductive reasoning guided by normative epistemic values to pick the best hypothesis. At this point you are supposed to see that the resurrection is the best explanation.

Going through all of these actually takes a great deal of detail so I will attempt to hit on the major things here, filling in details if necessary.

1. the establishing of historical facts. This is complicated because in order to really get into this step you also end up learning some things about historical criticism about the Bible. In this step you look at how the Bible was put together, the sources that go into it, and what scholars think the dating of pericopes ought to be. Every little section may have come from a separate source. For instance, Luke is thought to have derived from Mark, a hypothetical sayings source called Q, and some things unique to Luke not used in the other synoptic gospels. The letters of Paul are thought to be the oldest writings in the NT, but not all are thought to be genuinely written by Paul. For instance, the pastoral epistles such as Timothy are not thought to have been written by Paul by most NT scholars. At this point hopefully you can see how complicated matters can get. All of these sayings and deeds of Jesus are broken down, assigned a potential author (such as, the author of Mark, or reported by Paul), date, etc.

So what are the criteria that are applied to all these? Something like, the older usually the better, the more independent attestations the more likely to have happened, if there is reason to think the fact in contention would have caused the author or the community embarrassment the more likely to be true.

For instance, take the reported crucifixion of Jesus. That the leader of the community would have been easily killed like a common criminal is supposed to have caused the community embarrassment and more likely to have happened because of this. Also, the killing is reported in Paul's epistles, the oldest sources, as well as in independent sources, such as the gospel of Mark (Mark thought to be the oldest writing). Therefore, it is likely Jesus was killed via crucifixion. You could flesh this out quite a bit more, but hopefully you get the gist.

In the end, the facts gathered are something like: Jesus existed and preached. He had a small following. He was killed. His followers were convinced that they saw him resurrected. As a result of this conviction his followers were willing to endure hardships. Other things people throw in are often the empty tomb (one I never thought was particularly well established), Jesus preaching his upcoming death (sayings that could have easily been inserted later to help explain matters) and maybe a couple others.

2. Once the basic facts about the case are gathered, come up with potential explanatory hypotheses. For instance, perhaps Jesus didn't fully die and came to later. Perhaps Jesus died, but wasn't resurrected, there were hallucinations and so on. These potential hypotheses are assessed for plausibility based on criteria like which one has the least amount of ad-hocness? which one explains the greatest number of facts about the case? and so on.

3. The resurrection is supposed to come out as the strongest candidate. If the resurrection, and here I mean the bodily, physical resurrection, of Jesus is true then the basic gospel which undergirds Christianity is very likely to be true.

I will explain my issues with this in the next post.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
Alright so the last post I tried to run down the major outline of the argument for the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. Now I will explain where I think it lacks and why it fails to convince me now.

The first place things go awry is with the establishing of historical facts. I do think you can make a fairly decent case for Jesus existing, having preached some Jewish stuff of the day, and having been killed by the Romans. None of that seems astonishing and in fact you can find parallel cases that look like this from the time (actually being historically appropriate is another one of those criteria you are supposed to apply for establishing historical facts- no anachronisms). That basic case, sure. But much beyond that things become quickly shady. Can I really say that many disciples saw Jesus together and heard Jesus give speeches? No, I don't think that is established. Everything could be explained by individual 'sightings' of an opaque nature.

Because of that other hypotheses become fairly likely, at least as likely prima facie as the resurrection hypothesis (which has other issues I'll explain). For instance, that the disciples were experiencing great grief and so saw their beloved leader in hallucinations becomes plausible. That would explain everything you can well establish.

So another problem is with plausibility and weighing out these hypotheses. With most of them, JEsus didn't really die, he passed out; the disciples were seeing things; they made it up... you don't need to assume anything extra about the world. You can assume that things work basically how they do now, and you do not need to assume any other claims about the world that are difficult to establish. With the resurrection hypothesis, you have to assume that God exists, that miracles happen and that God is interventionist in a special way. These are *enormous* claims. So how can we really compare these hypotheses side by side and not worry about the plausibility of the resurrection hypothesis when it requires us to swallow so many other things about the world? This is a big problem.

This is in a nutshell why I find this argument less than convincing these days.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
It's frustrating to not know what really happened and we just have to accept we will never know.

My best judgement says He did appear after death after evaluating all the evidence and argumentation both ways. But that's just MY best judgement.

Another thought is you may be too concerned with one issue that can never be settled. There are many more modern miracles that tells me the higher beings want to give evidence to support belief but not force/compel our belief by doing something dramatic for all to observe. And there is probably a greater wisdom in that gentle handed approach. What would be the ramifications of an undeniable miracle in front of the world considering the beliefs of many different religions and sects and atheists, etc.. It is probably best the way it is.

There may be strong evidence but a skeptic can always posit a natural possibility for every miracle or paranormal claim. So it can (and does) go on forever. At some point you have to ask yourself if every religious and paranormal claim can be explained away; and my best judgement is that that seems highly unlikely.

I'm rambling but good luck fixing the symmetry.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I always thought about the word in a more direct sense.
To rise from the dead.

So we lay down and breathe our last breath.

We then stand up...in spirit.
We rise from the dead.

As for Jesus.....
Believing He ascended into heaven physically is a problem.
Watching Him disappear into the clouds seems odd to me.

Today we know heaven is not in the sky.
We tend to think of it as a place of spirit.

Resurrection?.....in that last hour....yeah.
Ascension?.....not so sure.

In spirit it makes sense.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
3. The resurrection is supposed to come out as the strongest candidate..


And yet it seems to be nothing but LATER mythology added to the tale.


Paul our earliest writer almost ignores a physical resurrection completely.

A "risen" Jesus is someone who has gone to heaven, and Pauls jesus lived in heaven. Pauls jesus was a spiritual resurrection.


Our first gospel speak nothing of a physical resurrection. The ending of Mark was a later addition, ending with a empty tomb.


When we talk of a resurrection, it is not clear whether we are dealing with a spiritual or physical resurrection or one that evolved into a physical concept.


Either way it was not the first mythology that spread about the man who died at Passover.

Resurrection of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

here E P Sanders gives a good explanation.

E.P. Sanders argues that a plot to foster belief in the Resurrection would probably have resulted in a more consistent story




I do not regard deliberate fraud as a worthwhile explanation. Many of the people in these lists were to spend the rest of their lives proclaiming that they had seen the risen Lord, and several of them would die for their cause. Moreover, a calculated deception should have produced great unanimity. Instead, there seem to have been competitors: ‘I saw him first!’ ‘No! I did.’ Paul’s tradition that 500 people saw Jesus at the same time has led some people to suggest that Jesus’ followers suffered mass hysteria. But mass hysteria does not explain the other traditions.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Alright so the last post I tried to run down the major outline of the argument for the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. Now I will explain where I think it lacks and why it fails to convince me now.

The first place things go awry is with the establishing of historical facts. I do think you can make a fairly decent case for Jesus existing, having preached some Jewish stuff of the day, and having been killed by the Romans. None of that seems astonishing and in fact you can find parallel cases that look like this from the time (actually being historically appropriate is another one of those criteria you are supposed to apply for establishing historical facts- no anachronisms). That basic case, sure. But much beyond that things become quickly shady. Can I really say that many disciples saw Jesus together and heard Jesus give speeches? No, I don't think that is established. Everything could be explained by individual 'sightings' of an opaque nature.

Because of that other hypotheses become fairly likely, at least as likely prima facie as the resurrection hypothesis (which has other issues I'll explain). For instance, that the disciples were experiencing great grief and so saw their beloved leader in hallucinations becomes plausible. That would explain everything you can well establish.

So another problem is with plausibility and weighing out these hypotheses. With most of them, JEsus didn't really die, he passed out; the disciples were seeing things; they made it up... you don't need to assume anything extra about the world. You can assume that things work basically how they do now, and you do not need to assume any other claims about the world that are difficult to establish. With the resurrection hypothesis, you have to assume that God exists, that miracles happen and that God is interventionist in a special way. These are *enormous* claims. So how can we really compare these hypotheses side by side and not worry about the plausibility of the resurrection hypothesis when it requires us to swallow so many other things about the world? This is a big problem.

This is in a nutshell why I find this argument less than convincing these days.

Also worth considering is what you said in the OP about textual interpretation criteria: older is better.

The oldest gospel, Mark, doesn't include the resurrection. It ends (and I'm talking about the original ending after verse 8, not the later material that was tacked on after) with the tomb being empty and the disciples being confused and afraid. No resurrected Jesus - his body is gone, but the reason why is unknown and he's certainly not appearing before anyone.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
I always thought about the word in a more direct sense.
To rise from the dead.

So we lay down and breathe our last breath.

We then stand up...in spirit.
We rise from the dead.

As for Jesus.....
Believing He ascended into heaven physically is a problem.
Watching Him disappear into the clouds seems odd to me.

Today we know heaven is not in the sky.
We tend to think of it as a place of spirit.

Resurrection?.....in that last hour....yeah.
Ascension?.....not so sure.

In spirit it makes sense.
“Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.” (Gospel of Thomas, saying 3)The Gospel of Thomas Collection -- Translations and Resources


20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:20-21)
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I don't think any of this follows. Being as there are no extra-Biblical sources for the existence of Jesus as outlined in the NT, there is no reason to assume that he lived when and how the NT says he did.
The earliest writers could have been writing about a much earlier figure who began a sect that still had some followers a hundred or two hundred years later. They could have made up their stories and passed them on to the sect, who would have relished the idea that their patron was even greater than they originally thought. Or perhaps the earliest writer wanted to take control of the sect so he made himself Jesus' prophet.

Therefore there is no reason to assume anything besides for the strong possibility of his existence and that at least one person claimed to have experienced a vision of him.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
The earliest writers could have been writing about a much earlier figure who began a sect that still had some followers a hundred or two hundred years later.

And yet no real historian agrees with you.


Nor are there any figures that existed prior that you can tie too with any credibility, as none resemble a Galilean traveling teacher.



Maybe we should look at moses, or abraham or noah or eve or adam if you want to deal with what many people claim as mythical characters, including most credible historians.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Therefore there is no reason to assume anything besides for the strong possibility of his existence and that at least one person claimed to have experienced a vision of him.


I agree within context of the resurrection. But not one person.

The early movement was wide and varied with many different beliefs.

There were many different sects of Hellenistic Jews who had many different beliefs on what happened.

Groups flourished all through the Diaspora.


Not one part of the movement could ever be traced to one person ever. Even Pauls epistles were co-authored.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
And yet no real historian agrees with you.


Nor are there any figures that existed prior that you can tie too with any credibility, as none resemble a Galilean traveling teacher.



Maybe we should look at moses, or abraham or noah or eve or adam if you want to deal with what many people claim as mythical characters, including most credible historians.

So if no real historian agrees with me, that means I am factually wrong? I was unaware that Historians knew the true facts about what happened.

The fact that there are no existent records of a travelling teacher, doesn't need to mean anything more than that he wasn't that special. Maybe travelling teachers were common. Maybe everyone and his mother walked around trying to be the promised messiah, so no one payed attention to another nut in the cache. Maybe he only had a very few followers to begin with, that no documentation remains.

Just because we have some record, doesn't mean we have all the records.

I agree within context of the resurrection. But not one person.

The early movement was wide and varied with many different beliefs.

There were many different sects of Hellenistic Jews who had many different beliefs on what happened.

Groups flourished all through the Diaspora.


Not one part of the movement could ever be traced to one person ever. Even Pauls epistles were co-authored.

I understand that. I'm not making a case for what I believe happened, only giving examples of what could also explain the Jesus of the NT besides for what it actually says, in order to explain why I do not believe it is necessarily true.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Gone
Premium Member
I really don't see how anyone can literally believe that a rotting corpse, dead for about 3 days, got up and starting walking and talking. I'm sorry, but that's just veering into insanity. So surely the best interpretation of those texts would have to be allegorical or metaphorical because dead people don't come back to life. Obviously, if that really happened, it would've been the most documented event in all of human history.
 
The first problem we have to look at before even getting to the issue resurrection is the figure himself. There is no evidence for Jesus and most likely the man never existed. There is more evidence that Jesus is a mythological figure created from the lives of various men before him and a hybrid of different pagan teachings around at the time. So if the man never existed he never rose.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
I really don't see how anyone can literally believe that a rotting corpse, dead for about 3 days, got up and starting walking and talking. I'm sorry, but that's just veering into insanity. So surely the best interpretation of those texts would have to be allegorical or metaphorical because dead people don't come back to life. Obviously, if that really happened, it would've been the most documented event in all of human history.

I think the first part of your argument is not a good argument. According to Christians, the event was miraculous/supernatural. There is no reason not to extend that miracle to the state of the corpse as well. Only there is no reason to mention it, because that's more of a technical matter. Not that I'm arguing for a resurrection mind you.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
I think the first part of your argument is not a good argument. According to Christians, the event was miraculous/supernatural. There is no reason not to extend that miracle to the state of the corpse as well. Only there is no reason to mention it, because that's more of a technical matter. Not that I'm arguing for a resurrection mind you.

The first part of that argument is directly related to the second, and it seems so obvious it hardly needs stating. The poster is quite right. Dead people don't come back to life. The Resurrection is an argument only for believers, and is held purely as an article of faith. If it were an historical fact then the world at large, and not just believers, would view our biological existence very differently.



"I really don't see how anyone can literally believe that a rotting corpse, dead for about 3 days, got up and starting walking and talking.
I'm sorry, but that's just veering into insanity. So surely the best interpretation of those texts would have to be allegorical or metaphorical because dead people don't come back to life. Obviously, if that really happened, it would've been the most documented event in all of human history."
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
The first part of that argument is directly related to the second, and it seems so obvious it hardly needs stating. The poster is quite right. Dead people don't come back to life. The Resurrection is an argument only for believers, and is held purely as an article of faith. If it were an historical fact then the world at large, and not just believers, would view our biological existence very differently.

I am not talking about an argument for the Resurrection itself. That does require proof. What I am saying is, that the argument that the body should have begun to decompose is not a good argument against the Resurrection. If it could be empirically proven that the Resurrection happened, then it would be obvious that the miracle extended to the corpse as well. You can't argue against one aspect of a miraculous even, by using natural events. You have to argue against the existence of the miracle in the first place.

I am not trying to prove the Resurrection. I am not Christian and don't believe there was a Resurrection. I am only saying, that this argument is really only nit-picking and not a real issue.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
The first problem we have to look at before even getting to the issue resurrection is the figure himself. There is no evidence for Jesus and most likely the man never existed. There is more evidence that Jesus is a mythological figure created from the lives of various men before him and a hybrid of different pagan teachings around at the time. So if the man never existed he never rose.

No. You can count on one hand the number of scholars active in the field of NT biblical criticism who are Jesus mythicists. I don't think this is a rational approach to take.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
I really don't see how anyone can literally believe that a rotting corpse, dead for about 3 days, got up and starting walking and talking. I'm sorry, but that's just veering into insanity. So surely the best interpretation of those texts would have to be allegorical or metaphorical because dead people don't come back to life. Obviously, if that really happened, it would've been the most documented event in all of human history.

You can if you think God exists, is omnipotent, created the universe and its attendant physical rules etc. If you really believe that, then at least it is possible that such things occur if God causes them. That is a part of my point in the second post. The argument for the resurrection could only make sense if you first believe there is a particular sort of interventionist God.
 

brokensymmetry

ground state
I don't think any of this follows. Being as there are no extra-Biblical sources for the existence of Jesus as outlined in the NT, there is no reason to assume that he lived when and how the NT says he did.
The earliest writers could have been writing about a much earlier figure who began a sect that still had some followers a hundred or two hundred years later. They could have made up their stories and passed them on to the sect, who would have relished the idea that their patron was even greater than they originally thought. Or perhaps the earliest writer wanted to take control of the sect so he made himself Jesus' prophet.

Therefore there is no reason to assume anything besides for the strong possibility of his existence and that at least one person claimed to have experienced a vision of him.

The NT itself consists of several separate primary sources. The case from those alone I think is plenty tight enough to infer that a Jesus figure existed. there is nothing incredible about that claim and it is entirely appropriate given what we do have, which is why the vast majority of NT scholars agree that Jesus existed as a historical person. That is a simpler explanation anyway than what you are suggesting. I think it goes without saying that just simply thinking that Jesus existed and taught some of the things attributed to him lends absolutely no further support to Jesus doing miracles or being resurrected from the dead.

But as to your latter post, I don't disagree. I might say several people had some sort of vision of him as more likely but I don't think I could claim that strongly from the stuff that is reasonably established historically.
 
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