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The Anti-Semitic Card

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I am kind of hesitant to raise this topic, but I feel it needs addressing. Especially, since I recently had my Gnostic beliefs shot down as being anti-semitic, because I believe the Jewish god is evil. Why is it that every time someone says something that Jews find insulting we're suddenly anti-semites? I mean I've seen this called on the most ridicilous things, like simply criticizing the Jewish religion.

The term "anti-semite" is so often overused and misused that it hardy has any real meaning anymore. If disliking the Jewish god is "anti-semitic", then human decency itself is "anti-semitic". It's silly when people think their religion, race and/or nationality entitles them to reverence or preferential treatment, when the reality is that they're just another ape like the rest of us, no better or worse.
 
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Christian Gnosis

Active Member
Reading over the thread, I must agree that Pagan Buddhist's assertion about the Jewish god is very harsh. It's one thing to criticize a god one believes doesn't exist, but asserting that Jews worship a real demon god is very extreme and presumptuous. It's also very ignorant. Most Jewish people are not literalists, and from my own studies of Judaism and the formation of the Torah, the Jews have a very long history of nuanced interpretation and re-interpretation of their holy texts. I'm much more inclined to listen to what the Jewish people have to say about the interpretation of their own holy texts than overly literal-Christians, especially Gnostic Christians relying on esoteric texts that seem to me even more far removed from Judaism than the Christian scriptures

Well I admit ever-changing that maybe saying it's a literal demon god is rather putting the cart before the horse. I am not sure I actually think it is a literal demon god. To me the Gnostics who put forth that the demiurge is a construct of the human mind are probably correct, since Gnosticism is ultimately about transcending the duality of the flesh. That isn't why I say demon god though when addressing Jews. When Jews and fundamentalist Christians speak of a god they view as wrathful, angry, and destructive, they are speaking of a being they actually believe exists. I simply bring the conversation down to their level when I say it's a demon god. If that deity does exist, it is a demon.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
When Jews and fundamentalist Christians speak of a god they view as wrathful, angry, and destructive, they are speaking of a being they actually believe exists. I simply bring the conversation down to their level when I say it's a demon god. If that deity does exist, it is a demon.
Then you must be clear that you do not speak for all Jews or Christians. I notice that you specified fundamentalist Christians, but you did not make that specification for the Jewish people. You're lumping them all together with a poor understanding of their very broad tradition.
 

Christian Gnosis

Active Member
Then you must be clear that you do not speak for all Jews or Christians. I notice that you specified fundamentalist Christians, but you did not make that specification for the Jewish people. You're lumping them all together with a poor understanding of their very broad tradition.

No, I know there are Reform Jews and stuff. I said fundamentalist to clarify that not all Christians are fundamentalists, only because I consider myself a Christian, albeit a Gnostic. I wasn't necessarily singling out Jews.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
No, I know there are Reform Jews and stuff. I said fundamentalist to clarify that not all Christians are fundamentalists, only because I consider myself a Christian, albeit a Gnostic. I wasn't necessarily singling out Jews.

Then you should specify that you are speaking of fundamentalist Jews rather than just saying Jews. Otherwise, it's easy for people to interpret that you are speaking about all Jews. It's like saying Christians are homophobic. Some Christians are, but not all of them, and if you don't specify, it's easy to take offense.
 

Christian Gnosis

Active Member
Then you should specify that you are speaking of fundamentalist Jews rather than just saying Jews. Otherwise, it's easy for people to interpret that you are speaking about all Jews. It's like saying Christians are homophobic. Some Christians are, but not all of them, and if you don't specify, it's easy to take offense.

I did sort of clarify when I said I think it likely the demiurge isn't an actuality. I think Jews in many ways have evolved out of that view of God.
 

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
I am kind of hesitant to raise this topic, but I feel it needs addressing. Especially, since I recently had my Gnostic beliefs shot down as being anti-semitic, because I believe the Jewish god is evil. Why is it that every time someone says something that Jews find insulting we're suddenly anti-semites? I mean I've seen this called on the most ridicilous things, like simply criticizing the Jewish religion.
I would suggest that the reason that people are so sensitive is that in the past (and present, just not in the quarters of a message board), people find any excuse is a good one to persecute Jews. It's been done before.

Here, you posit that the God of the Jews is evil. How hard is it to imagine that the next logical argument is that: If the God of the Jews is evil, the Jews that follow that God are evil. We must end all evil, so we must kill the Jews.

Yeah. It's been done before. True, not here, but Jewish history is rife with wonderful people who have nothing better to do than to destroy the Jews.

Some Jews may be paranoid, but you know... historically, people HAVE been out to get us.
 
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ellenjanuary

Well-Known Member
Then you should specify that you are speaking of fundamentalist Jews rather than just saying Jews. Otherwise, it's easy for people to interpret that you are speaking about all Jews. It's like saying Christians are homophobic. Some Christians are, but not all of them, and if you don't specify, it's easy to take offense.
Shouldn't be so easy to take offense. What use, Almighty; cannot fortify the heart of the believer?
 

Ben Masada

Well-Known Member
I am kind of hesitant to raise this topic, but I feel it needs addressing. Especially, since I recently had my Gnostic beliefs shot down as being anti-semitic, because I believe the Jewish god is evil. Why is it that every time someone says something that Jews find insulting we're suddenly anti-semites? I mean I've seen this called on the most ridicilous things, like simply criticizing the Jewish religion.


I am a Jew who would never say you are anti-Semite for saying that the Jewish God is evil. You are just misinformed and not educated enough to know that our God is not like the anthropomorphic god of Christianity. And that you are absolutely unaware that evil does not exist. Evil is only the absence of good. Do you have any idea of what I am talking about?
 

Christian Gnosis

Active Member
I am a Jew who would never say you are anti-Semite for saying that the Jewish God is evil. You are just misinformed and not educated enough to know that our God is not like the anthropomorphic god of Christianity. And that you are absolutely unaware that evil does not exist. Evil is only the absence of good. Do you have any idea of what I am talking about?

You think all Christians have an anthropomorphic view of God? Look I'm not saying Jews still view God this way, but you can't deny the Old Testament portrays God as quite devious. It's not just Jews either. I have come down equally hard on some of my fellow Christians that tell me to believe in the deity the Old Testament depicts, because often times, Christians take this imagry of a wrathful god far more literally then Jews do.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
I did sort of clarify when I said I think it likely the demiurge isn't an actuality. I think Jews in many ways have evolved out of that view of God.

No, that is not a clarification. When speaking of such a diverse group of people, clarification must be made. Otherwise, you're lumping them all together in a stereotype. Speaking of the Jewish god as "evil" is also a stereotype -- you're implying that there is only one way in which Jews see God. Judaism is a very rich and diverse tradition.

Shouldn't be so easy to take offense. What use, Almighty; cannot fortify the heart of the believer?

It's easy to take offense when blanket statements are made about a diverse group of people.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
You think all Christians have an anthropomorphic view of God? Look I'm not saying Jews still view God this way, but you can't deny the Old Testament portrays God as quite devious. It's not just Jews either. I have come down equally hard on some of my fellow Christians that tell me to believe in the deity the Old Testament depicts, because often times, Christians take this imagry of a wrathful god far more literally then Jews do.
The God the OT portrays (which is actually held onto in the NT), is very diverse. At points, you are right, God is quite devious. I don't think that can really be denied.

At other times though, it is a God of unconditional love. It is a God who loves everyone, even the most evil. Jonah is a great example of this. Other times, God is a friend, or a savior, who leads those he loves out of bondage.

The God portrayed in the OT is quite diverse.
 

EverChanging

Well-Known Member
The God the OT portrays (which is actually held onto in the NT), is very diverse. At points, you are right, God is quite devious. I don't think that can really be denied.

At other times though, it is a God of unconditional love. It is a God who loves everyone, even the most evil. Jonah is a great example of this. Other times, God is a friend, or a savior, who leads those he loves out of bondage.

The God portrayed in the OT is quite diverse.

Exactly, which gives the Jewish tradition quite a lot to work with in regard to interpretation. As many Jewish people have said, their God is not anthropomorphic, but as limited humans, we portray it that way. The Hebrew scriptures reveal an evolution in culture. To the Jewish people (and to many Christians, myself included), this is representative of a spiritual journey.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I am kind of hesitant to raise this topic, but I feel it needs addressing. Especially, since I recently had my Gnostic beliefs shot down as being anti-semitic, because I believe the Jewish god is evil. Why is it that every time someone says something that Jews find insulting we're suddenly anti-semites? I mean I've seen this called on the most ridicilous things, like simply criticizing the Jewish religion.

Well, I think first of all that there is a difference between critiquing and criticizing. I may not agree if someone says that Jewish theology seems difficult to them, but that is a perfectly tenable statement, in that it is a critique-- it describes a difficulty that one has with something as they understand it. To say that the Jewish God is evil is a criticism: it is a judgment-- in this case, a sweeping judgment-- which is almost certainly likely to be untenable because unless one happens to be fairly well-schooled in Judaism and Jewish theology, it is almost certainly made from ignorance.

It is natural to have feelings about something that one encounters. If one reads a translation of the Hebrew Scriptures and finds the material unpleasant, that is an inarguable emotional reaction.

However, if one stops there, and simply decides based on that that the Jewish God is evil, or that Judaism is bad, that is massively ignorant. Someone doing so has not even read the text in the original language, let alone all of the myriad attendant texts that Judaism says are absolutely necessary for correct understanding of even the simplest meanings of the Hebrew Bible. Someone doing so has also not read any of the hundreds or thousands of books of Jewish philosophy, theology, mysticism, exegetical parable, and other such products of Jewish culture to determine not only how the Bible has been read and interpreted by Jews, but how Judaism has evolved and reshaped itself over the millennia in regard to beliefs about God, and what we think God wants from us.

A poor and pale analogy would be someone who has never met a British person reading a poor to mediocre translation of Chaucer's The Canterbury Tales in Cantonese, and presuming that a) they have understood the tales perfectly, and b) that presents an absolutely clear and accurate portrait of the English today.

Even in this thread, it is clear that people are unaware of what the meaning of elements in Jewish theology are, such as chosenness. I have seen several times a common misconception that the term "chosen people" (which is a mistranslation anyhow) is thought to indicate superiority or supremacism, as though we think that we're God's favorites. And that is not at all what it means: we have been chosen to accept additional responsibilities and duties that other peoples have not been taxed with. Nor does it indicate exclusivity: we have been chosen to be the Jewish People, those who keep the Torah. Presumably, God could and would choose other peoples for different responsibilities, with different responsibilities and duties.

It is all too clear that most are ignorant of the concept of Oral Torah, that the Written Torah that we have represents only one half of a whole, and the Oral Torah, including both oral traditions now written down, and all the scholarship that those traditions have spawned, is an absolutely integral part of Torah as a whole, and to ignore the Oral Torah is to comprehend less than half of a whole, at best. And it is equally clear that most are unaware that the Jewish tradition does not ascribe the entirety of the Hebrew Scriptures to Divine Authorship, but only the Torah (the Five Books of Moses) and perhaps not even all of that.

These concepts that are just a few of those which are vital to even a basic understanding of Judaism and Jewish theology cannot be dismissed. People cannot gloss over them and presume that they have a perfect understanding of the many things Jews have thought and do think, merely because they have read second- or third-hand information about Jews and Judaism written from a Christian perspective, and with Christian knowledge, perhaps with a spicing of excerpts of Wikipedia entries on Judaism.

What is offensive is not that people don't care for Jewish theology. Nobody is asking them to care for it. Jews do not proselytize or missionize, so if you don't like Judaism, it is quite easy to simply not be Jewish. What is offensive is that people are presuming that they know what Judaism and Jewish theology are, are in fact presuming themselves expert in those subjects, enough to publicly voice the opinion that the beliefs of an entire socioreligious ethnic group that has been around and evolving for over 3000 years are not only entirely erroneous but actually evil.

And there is still no clarity about why Jews would find this problematic enough to presume that anyone who does so might simply dislike us? Really??

If that is the case, I cannot say how dismaying that is.
 
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Christian Gnosis

Active Member
Levite do Jews believe God is love? That God loves non-Jews the same way as Jews? Do Jews truly believe God would order some of the things the Old Testament describes, or is it what the authors thought God wanted? I ask that in all sincerity, and your answer could make me reconsider a lot.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Levite do Jews believe God is love? That God loves non-Jews the same way as Jews? Do Jews truly believe God would order some of the things the Old Testament describes, or is it what the authors thought God wanted? I ask that in all sincerity, and your answer could make me reconsider a lot.

First of all, I think what is absolutely critical is that there is no such thing as one thing that Jews believe.

Judaism is a religion that is founded upon the notion that text is rich with many multiple meanings, and is designed to be actively interpreted, reinterpreted, and understood in both new and multiple ways. There is literally no such thing in Judaism as "the one correct answer" to just about anything.

So I can say that many, if not most Jews believe that God loves all human beings equally.

I can also say that most Jews would not say that they believe that God is Love, because we would view that as a gross oversimplification, among other things. Most Jews believe that God loves people and the rest of creation very much, and is full of compassion, lovingkindness, mercy, and other loving traits. But most Jews would also believe that God is just, and demands righteousness, and is passionate about the need for people to be compassionate and merciful to others (and can be upset when they do not do so). And most Jews would also agree that God is complex, nuanced, sometimes even mysterious, and His ways are not always comprehensible to us at first, or sometimes ever.

As for God ordering "some of the things the Old Testament describes," I cannot answer that in the abstract. It would depend on what you were referring to. Some of the things that people often find troubling in the Old Testament are misunderstood, and were never intended to be read literally. Some things we believe are there only as hypothetical examples, and such situations never were, nor were ever expected to be. And a few things, yes, we do not understand clearly, and either we have agreed to take them on faith, and trust that we will understand someday, or we are struggling with them, and continue to struggle with them.

Judaism is a religion of questions, not answers. The name Yisra'el (Israel) that we collectively share means "who struggles with God," and we see that as being both relevant and continuing. What God commands is not always clear, and what God expects of us is not always clear, and we struggle, therefore, with the text, and with our evolving theology, to try and better understand what we think God wishes from us. But there is never, never an attitude in Judaism that one should simply have blind faith, not ask questions, and do whatever a simple, literal reading of the Written Torah might seem to demand.
 

Christian Gnosis

Active Member
I mean the parts of the Old Testament that say God ordered the Israelites to kill people of the Pagan nations around them. Do Jews believe that's true? Is it because in your view God hates Pagans?
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
I mean the parts of the Old Testament that say God ordered the Israelites to kill people of the Pagan nations around them. Do Jews believe that's true? Is it because in your view God hates Pagans?

I would say that there are several views that Jewish scholars have taken on this. The view most traditionally promulgated, which is, if I had to gauge, the dominant view in Orthodoxy today, is that God ordered it, just that one time, because it was necessary to the survival of the Jewish people. And technically, the order was not to kill them all, it was to kill them if they refused to surrender and to accept Israelite overlordship of the land, including the giving up of their idols and unacceptable sexual practices (e.g., incest and sexual idolatry), and unacceptable social violence (e.g. child sacrifices). Which, I personally agree, doesn't necessarily make it less problematic. But that has been a prominent view, and since in any case, all are clear that it was a one-time thing, and there is no justification for any such thing ever again, most Jews who don't hold this view are disinclined to make too much of an issue of it.

There have been some voices in the historical tradition that view things otherwise, and non-Orthodox Jews today (which means the majority of Jews, given that most Jews today are either not denominationally affiliated, or are Conservative or Reform or Reconstructionist) overwhelmingly believe that this is an excellent example of the author(s) of the Torah attempting to interpret what God wishes of them, and perhaps not doing so correctly; or perhaps of him/them being overzealous in interpretation; or perhaps overstating the commandment; or any number of other possibilities that would mean that God did not literally and directly command those actions.

And I can state with some assurance that few, if any, Jews today believe that God hates pagans. Some, if not many, believe that God does not like idolatry, and the mistaking of His singularity for plurality. But that is God disliking an action or behavior, not people. And few, if any, Jews today would believe that God would dislike those things so vehemently as to desire the deaths of those who do them. Mostly, when it comes to non-monotheistic practices, we tend to believe that they are erroneous, but if done in good faith (that is, the hope of the practitioner is to do the right and the good among others, and to come to better understanding of the Creator of the Universe), it is merely error, and not evil. And with practices that are on the border, such as Vaishnavic Hinduism, which is essentially complicated monism, we presume that those practices are good and right for those who follow them, but are prohibited to Jews.
 
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Zardoz

Wonderful Wizard
Premium Member
The original post that the OP made this thread for:

I am antisemitic? Really? What gave you that idea?
From the Christian DIR (where I can't post)
Christianity has nothing to do with Judaism. Judaism is about law keeping and subjecting the non-Jews to their state. Haven't you read what they think happens when the messiah comes? Too bad that messiah isn't coming, so they're wasting their time.
That sounds like you get all your info about Judaism from the 'protocols of the elders of zion' (the czarist fraudulent antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan to achieve global domination)
 
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