Texas Law Banning Abortion After About Six Weeks Takes Effect

[Debater Slayer]

One of the reasons there can be no compromise, the rape or incest is not the fault of the perfectly innocent fetus, 'visiting the sin of the father' on the child. I'm sure some aspect of the law restricts the 'morning after pill' which does not cause abortion but prevents ovulation.

It's not the fault of the pregnant woman either. Forcing a woman to go through pregnancy and labor against her wishes, especially in the case of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest, seems to me far more destructive than aborting a fetus that wouldn't survive outside the womb in the first place. That kind of argument basically implies that an unborn fetus has more rights than the woman carrying it.

 

[pearl]

It's not the fault of the pregnant woman either.

I agree, I was simply stating reasons for the impossibility of compromise with anti-abortionists.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Do you believe people commonly feel joy for activities that are forced on them against their will, and with the threat of imprisonment or other forms of physical and mental punishment?

Sex is what was forced in this example. And yes I can find you stories of women who experience joy from having a baby as a result of the terrible experience of being raped. Two evils never result in good.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Its also not a reward. It can be life ruining.

It doesn't need to be. If a person isn't ready to be a mother, she can allow the child to be adopted. Why is it so hard to adopt and so easy to kill a baby?

 

[Kooky]

Sex is what was forced in this example.

Women are factually forced to carry pregnancies to term, because their government is threatening them with force and harm if they do not. You seem to presume that they are doing this gladly.

But if they were glad to carry a child, then why would they seek to end their pregnancy in the first place?
How would that make sense to you?

 

[Wildswanderer]

But if they were glad to carry a child, then why would they seek to end their pregnancy in the first place?

Because of misinformation and fear most likely. Once they see the child on a screen and hear the heartbeat, most choose life over death.

 

[Kooky]

Because of misinformation and fear most likely. Once they see the child on a screen and hear the heartbeat, most choose life over death.

As a general principle, I don't believe that people whose opinions differ from mine are being bamboozled away from their true, correct feelings and thoughts, and that they would really all be of my opinion if they weren't manipulated by neferious forces.

It is clear that we have no common ground in this. Farewell.

 

[anna.]

Using English properly is "an old, but lame argument"?

It's a lame argument that women who are pregnant think of, or refer to their babies as fetuses. As I said: I've known many expectant mothers in my life and not one of them ever referred to her "fetus" and I've never been invited to a "fetus shower."

Nor does anyone say "Have you decided on a name yet for the fetus?"

I'm sure your fifth-grade teacher would be very displeased to hear you say that. Please disregard that comment if you were homeschooled.

I'm sure my college English Composition professor would agree that you wouldn't insert scientific language in average colloquial conversation.

Unless you're the type to say that you just stubbed your hallux.

Also, if you are going to reference me by name in a comment, please use the format @ecco. See, that's another example of proper usage.

I apologize for not @ing you. I'll make sure to do that next time.

I can agree with your last sentence. Regarding your first sentence, are you equally passionate about BLM which is also about the right to life?

Yes I am.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's a lame argument that women who are pregnant think of, or refer to their babies as fetuses. As I said: I've known many expectant mothers in my life and not one of them ever referred to her "fetus" and I've never been invited to a "fetus shower."

Nor does anyone say "Have you decided on a name yet for the fetus?"



I'm sure my college English Composition professor would agree that you wouldn't insert scientific language in average colloquial conversation.

Unless you're the type to say that you just stubbed your hallux.



I apologize for not @ing you. I'll make sure to do that next time.



Yes I am.

It's always a failure to base an argument upon precise
inferences from common informal usage of English.
Typically it's just a strained confirmation bias.

 

[SomeRandom]

It's a lame argument that women who are pregnant think of, or refer to their babies as fetuses. As I said: I've known many expectant mothers in my life and not one of them ever referred to her "fetus" and I've never been invited to a "fetus shower."

Nor does anyone say "Have you decided on a name yet for the fetus?"



I'm sure my college English Composition professor would agree that you wouldn't insert scientific language in average colloquial conversation.

Unless you're the type to say that you just stubbed your hallux.



I apologize for not @ing you. I'll make sure to do that next time.



Yes I am.

I think it’s important to recognise the difference between colloquial usage and legal/scientific terminology. If you’re out with friends and see a pregnant person, you’d likely discuss their baby with them. But according to law and perhaps even in scientific terms (depending on the stage of pregnancy) “baby” would not be the appropriate word, as it contains certain connotations that may not be applicable or appropriate at that stage.
I mean when’s the last time someone offered you a glass of dihydrogen monoxide?

 

[ecco]

Why is it so hard to adopt and so easy to kill a baby?

How many have you adopted?

 

[ecco]

It's a lame argument that women who are pregnant think of, or refer to their babies as fetuses. As I said: I've known many expectant mothers in my life and not one of them ever referred to her "fetus" and I've never been invited to a "fetus shower."

Nor does anyone say "Have you decided on a name yet for the fetus?"

Seriously? What do people give at shower? Are the diapers for the fetus or are they for the baby after it is born? Are the onsies for the fetus or are they for the baby after it is born? Is the crib for the fetus or is it for the baby after it is born?

Oh! They are for the baby that can use these things. Hence the term baby shower.

I'm sure my college English Composition professor would agree that you wouldn't insert scientific language in average colloquial conversation.

Unless you're the type to say that you just stubbed your hallux.

To serve your agenda, you need to call a fetus or an embryo a baby. But you don't want to admit that you do that to serve your agenda so you make an excuse: "I must call a fetus a baby because I don't want to use a scientific term in a 'colloquial conversation'".

 

[Wildswanderer]

How many have you adopted?

I haven't, but I know many people who have and it's always a very difficult process.

 

[anna.]

I think it’s important to recognise the difference between colloquial usage and legal/scientific terminology. If you’re out with friends and see a pregnant person, you’d likely discuss their baby with them. But according to law and perhaps even in scientific terms (depending on the stage of pregnancy) “baby” would not be the appropriate word, as it contains certain connotations that may not be applicable or appropriate at that stage.
I mean when’s the last time someone offered you a glass of dihydrogen monoxide?

That's kinda the point I'm making. And those who insert the word fetus into non legal/scientific language where a person would normally say baby, are disassociating themselves from what an abortion does.

I know someone personally who had a medical issue which caused her baby to be born prematurely at 26 weeks. He spent the first month or more (I don't remember exactly) in NICU, but he's about 11 years old now. Most abortions (~90%) occur in the first 12 weeks. The rest don't.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

"Love it or leave it" is a classic, time-honored argument in the American political culture. It can be used in almost any situation.

As a Canadian, I have another option -- "don't visit it." I can assure you, watching what Texas' Governor is signing these days, that Texas is a state upon which I will never, ever set foot. I'm allergic to nuts (except peanuts, cashews, brazil nuts, and pretty much every other kind, except the human ones).

 

[anna.]

Seriously? What do people give at shower? Are the diapers for the fetus or are they for the baby after it is born? Are the onsies for the fetus or are they for the baby after it is born? Is the crib for the fetus or is it for the baby after it is born?

Oh! They are for the baby that can use these things. Hence the term baby shower.

The baby showers are given before the baby is born. And - they still don't call it a fetus shower.

To serve your agenda, you need to call a fetus or an embryo a baby. But you don't want to admit that you do that to serve your agenda so you make an excuse: "I must call a fetus a baby because I don't want to use a scientific term in a 'colloquial conversation'".

Let me know what word you plan to use when you're pregnant.

 

[SomeRandom]

That's kinda the point I'm making. And those who insert the word fetus into non legal/scientific language where a person would normally say baby, are disassociating themselves from what an abortion does.

I disagree. Everyone knows what occurs during abortion, but it’s important to base decisions on (and indeed discuss issues using) logic, sound reason and rationality. Terms like “baby” or even “child” defeat the purpose of reasonable discussion because they are not only colloquial in nature, they are emotionally charged monikers. Terms that might not be entirely scientifically accurate, depending on which stage of the pregnancy is being discussed. For example a zygote is at best a potential future baby. But it is is not scientifically equal to a baby. This is just a medical fact. To label it as a child or baby is misleading and inaccurate, relying on emotional language rather than discussing the facts.

My sex education was very thorough and very explicit (at least going by the reactions to those on this website when I laid out what was discussed.) So based on what (little) I know about the stages of pregnancy, I know that terms like fetus, embryo, zygote are far more appropriate when discussing what is in actuality a medical procedure. Now if you personally feel that the procedure is taking a life, then that’s your right and you’re entitled to your opinion. I personally find abortion to be “sinful.” But at the same time, having a child can also in certain circumstances be considered “sinful.” And not for the reason of wedlock either.
But anyway, the term “life” when used colloquially and indeed spiritually/religiously doesn’t equate to the scientific definition. Which can in certain circumstances include things such as cancer, depending on which scientist you ask.
So we do not use words like “life” in the discussion, it is too emotionally and religiously charged. It gets people easily derailed. We need to stick to the facts and that might sound cold, but it’s the best way to have a proper discussion, even if the subject matter is distasteful or uncomfortable. More important in such circumstances, imo

I know someone personally who had a medical issue which caused her baby to be born prematurely at 26 weeks. He spent the first month or more (I don't remember exactly) in NICU, but he's about 11 years old now. Most abortions (~90%) occur in the first 12 weeks. The rest don't.

Late term abortion (which I sense that’s what your really hinting at) is indeed incredibly unfortunate. But will only occur in extreme medical emergencies. Like the skull not being developed causing the brain to literally fall out or extremely painful medical conditions which will only cause unnecessary suffering and an agonising death for the fetus among others. That’s why they should always be between the mother and doctor. Regardless of our personal feelings, those are just the facts of reality and we have no choice but to acknowledge them. Well you could bury your hand in the sand I suppose. But who does that help?

 

[Heyo]

The baby showers are given before the baby is born. And - they still don't call it a fetus shower.

I don't mind people using colloquial language in everyday circumstances.
But the moment we debate the legality of something we should use the appropriate legal terminology. Failing to do so and even refusing to do so shows only that that interlocutor is trying to appeal to emotion. It also opens up all kinds of equivocation fallacies. (Which is the strategy of most anti choice people (see what I did there?).) If an argument doesn't sound convincing when you use precise language, maybe it isn't.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Makes me think of a question.

Why is abortion synonymous with "its my right to choose what I do with my body", but vaccines are seen as people not having that same right to choose with their body?

Plastic bags to much lesser extent, but all issues revolve around a person's rights and freedom to choose.

Your vaccination status impacts other people. That's why.

You can disagree with that, of course. But it's more akin to rules about passive/active smoking.

 

[crossfire]

Seriously? What do people give at shower? Are the diapers for the fetus or are they for the baby after it is born? Are the onsies for the fetus or are they for the baby after it is born? Is the crib for the fetus or is it for the baby after it is born?

Oh! They are for the baby that can use these things. Hence the term baby shower.

lol! Next baby shower I go to, I'm giving a separate gift of chocolate and pickles to mom!