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Texas bikers in deadly shootout at Waco restaurant

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Your attempt at sarcasm makes no sense.
Let me flesh it out a bit.
This is a country that values freedom. As much as I think people should avoid pot and guns, there is no feasible way to deal with the problems by legislation. So until we can require people to be sensible and educated the effective options are limited (as opposed to just passing legislation that will cause more problems).
Tom
 
Let me flesh it out a bit.
This is a country that values freedom. As much as I think people should avoid pot and guns, there is no feasible way to deal with the problems by legislation.
I just factually disagree. As I mentioned earlier, gun control does work - most of the West applies it much more robustly than we do (do you really think they "don't value freedom?"), and hey look, their gun violence rates are far lower. On pot, first of all we're talking apples and oranges - pot is not a deadly weapon. But still I'd argue regulation has also worked, although from an opposite starting point. Legalizing pot has brought in millions in revenue for state and local governments, will keep people out of prison for absurd non-crimes, and could actually make pot safer as we regulate standards for growth and production. But that's a topic for a whole 'nother thread.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
As I mentioned earlier, gun control does work - most of the West applies it much more robustly than we do (do you really think they "don't value freedom?"), and hey look, their gun violence rates are far lower.
I understand all that.
But no I don't think that they value the level of freedom that USonians consider their due(I'm not sure enjoy is the right word, so I'll stick with value).
They all started regulating before the weapons tech explosion of the last few decades. At this point, trying to legislate handgun regulations will just create a black market, and we know how they function.
Tom
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Personally I think being a society of free, independent individuals is worth the entailed risks and dangers. I strongly prefer that over sacrificing ones rights and liberties and having every thought and action dictated in exchange for the illusion security. Being servile and submissive toward the whole might work for an insect colony, but that's beneath a man like me.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
At least no one innocent was harmed.

I wish I could be certain of that. Even if all the direct victims were known to be vicious gang members, the mere presence of violence may have hurt someone's perspectives or living.

And then there are the families of those gang members. Who knows how many orphans, widows and parents may have survived them?

Not all victims are actually hit by the gunfire.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Personally I think being a society of free, independent individuals is worth the entailed risks and dangers. I strongly prefer that over sacrificing ones rights and liberties and having every thought and action dictated in exchange for the illusion security. Being servile and submissive toward the whole might work for an insect colony, but that's beneath a man like me.

Somehow I suspect that you mean to say that gun control is not a good thing with that.

But I sure don't see the relation.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
There was an infamous siege in 1993 lasting over 50 days with dozens of fatalities near Waco, wasn't there? It involved the ATF, the FBI, the Texas Army National Guard, the Branch Davidians and David Koresh.

It seems that the place is just not very peaceful.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
There was an infamous siege in 1993 lasting over 50 days with dozens of fatalities near Waco, wasn't there? It involved the ATF, the FBI, the Texas Army National Guard, the Branch Davidians and David Koresh.

It seems that the place is just not very peaceful.

I guess North Korea is pretty peaceful in comparison (no crime, no violence, etc,) but would you consider it preferable?
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I guess North Korea is pretty peaceful in comparison (no crime, no violence, etc,) but would you consider it preferable?
Is that the standard of comparison you have to reach out for?

Ok then. I guess that answers the question I made in #89 and resolves my puzzlement as expressed in #86.

Thanks for that.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Is that the standard of comparison you have to reach out for?

Ok then. I guess that answers the question I made in #89 and resolves my puzzlement as expressed in #86.

Thanks for that.

Sigh. Okay, I know I reached for an extreme comparison, but my point is that no society is perfect, and there are almost always trade-offs. Free societies will have more crime and chaos than repressive societies, but although repressive societies might be more peaceful and orderly, we still prefer chancing the potential downsides of freedom rather than live under a rigid thumb.

Besides, you live in Brazil where gun laws are far more restrictive than in the U.S., yet your gun crime is still far worse. So not really in a position to be critical of the U.S.
 
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Wirey

Fartist
Personally I think being a society of free, independent individuals is worth the entailed risks and dangers. I strongly prefer that over sacrificing ones rights and liberties and having every thought and action dictated in exchange for the illusion security. Being servile and submissive toward the whole might work for an insect colony, but that's beneath a man like me.


This is why there will never be gun control in the States. Americans are constantly immersed in a culture that constantly portrays guns as a method of solving problems, when in fact guns essentially cause the problems in the first place. US TV, movies, books, all show situations where the good guy uses a gun to permanently erase a bad guy and the problems he brings (although no one seems to notice that the same bad guys keep coming back, just like real life). Outside the US, people who attempt to solve problems with firearms aren’t lauded for it to the same degree as they are in the US. In America, gun ownership is a sign of masculinity, like owning a powerful car or having oversized junk. Allowing compromise is 'being servile and submissive', and makes one worthless, when every civilization is actually built by working together. That's a hard thing to overcome.


This isn’t meant as a criticism, because it truly isn’t. The Americans are just different. I’m Canadian, and we share a pretty common history with the Americans. Initial settlement, revolution (we’ve had three), western expansion, a Gold Rush even. I think the larger difference is that Canada eventually gained independence peacefully, while American independence came via the gun. There’s a pretty good line in a Pierre Burton book that says the biggest difference between the US and Canada is that Americans formed the cavalry to protect the settlers from the Indians, while Canada formed the North West Mounted Police to protect the Indians from the settlers. A gross oversimplification, perhaps, but a little true.


Or I could be way off.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Sigh. Okay, I know I reached for an extreme comparison, but my point is that no society is perfect, and there are almost always trade-offs. Free societies will have more crime and chaos than repressive societies, but although repressive societies might be more peaceful and orderly, we still prefer chancing the potential downsides of freedom rather than live under a rigid thumb.

For what it is worth, I fully believe you sincerely see what you are saying as arguments for gun carry freedom.

Just as I sincerely wonder what is in there to argue for that. Whatever is convincing you is just not coming to me. I suspect there is some subjacent context that is decisive and is not being expressed.

Honestly, you don't seem to be trying to argue for gun freedom. I don't mean that you are not convincing. I mean that you don't seem to be trying at all.

Besides, you live in Brazil where gun laws are far more restrictive than in the U.S., yet your gun crime is still far worse. So not really in a position to be critical of the U.S.

You might have a point if the countries were otherwise comparable. But Brazilians have a considerably different culture, one that is just not very used to respect towards people in the first place.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
This is why there will never be gun control in the States. Americans are constantly immersed in a culture that constantly portrays guns as a method of solving problems, when in fact guns essentially cause the problems in the first place. US TV, movies, books, all show situations where the good guy uses a gun to permanently erase a bad guy and the problems he brings (although no one seems to notice that the same bad guys keep coming back, just like real life). Outside the US, people who attempt to solve problems with firearms aren’t lauded for it to the same degree as they are in the US. In America, gun ownership is a sign of masculinity, like owning a powerful car or having oversized junk. Allowing compromise is 'being servile and submissive', and makes one worthless, when every civilization is actually built by working together. That's a hard thing to overcome.

Again with these tired generalizations, over-simplifications, stereotypes, and straw-men? It's like saying people who own cars must think that life is like "Fast and the Furious." and calling someone a "reckless street racer" just for owning a car. What are these "problems" you believe that Americans think are "solved" with a gun? Of all the gun owners that I've known, none had this sort of Rambo mentality you presume they have. I've mentioned the following on here numerous times, but I guess it bears repeating; I grew up in quiet, friendly communities where practically every house-hold owned firearms, yet violent crime, especially gun related crime, was non-existent. I've had friends and family who've owned guns, yet none who fit the slur "gun-nut", which has been tossed at anyone who happens to support the second amendment. Everyone had always been responsible and low-key regarding the guns they've owned, occasionally taking them out to go hunting or target practice. Yet their mere ownership of guns somehow contributes to violent crime going down in the gang-ridden ghettos. Not to digress, but that is another subject that annoys me; people who criticize hunting as inhumane and barbaric yet still consume meat as if industrial slaughterhouses were somehow less barbaric and more humane.
Anyway, you have two viewpoints, one on the inside informed by direct knowledge and personal experience, and one on the outside informed through a narrow, skewed window via a biased, sensationalized media.Things get distorted and misrepresented by knee-jerk hysteria. Should people who own kitchen cutlery be shamed for crimes that have involved stabbings? Perhaps it's this culinary culture that fosters and facilitates violent knife attacks? See how silly that sounds? But that might sound totally reasonable to a culture where kitchen cutlery is a foreign thing and their own exposure to knives is exclusively through gruesome stories of slashings and stabbings in a faraway land.
Also, we already have compromise, called licensing and regulation, which still allows responsible, law-abiding citizens the freedom to own a useful tool, rather than a complete ban.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
For what it is worth, I fully believe you sincerely see what you are saying as arguments for gun carry freedom.

Just as I sincerely wonder what is in there to argue for that. Whatever is convincing you is just not coming to me. I suspect there is some subjacent context that is decisive and is not being expressed.

Honestly, you don't seem to be trying to argue for gun freedom. I don't mean that you are not convincing. I mean that you don't seem to be trying at all.

Gun ownership is something that has been debated ad neuseum here on RF for years. Attempting to present a well reasoned and substantiated argument is an exercise in frustration and futility if people aren't willing to examine it honestly and objectively. Why write a bunch of paragraphs when people will have already dismissed it after the first few words?
A lot of RFers' ideologies can be boiled down to bumper sticker slogans with a lot of invested ego and emotion. This is one of the reasons I've took a break from RF in the first place.

But if you're genuinely interested I could dig up one of many an old thread and copy and paste my arguments from it.

You might have a point if the countries were otherwise comparable. But Brazilians have a considerably different culture, one that is just not very used to respect towards people in the first place.

Criminal and violent behavior is a psychological and sociological (and thus cultural) thing. It's not caused by the mere presence and availability of an inanimate object. Look at Switzerland. Where is their crime and violence? Yes, the U.S. has it's problems, but I don't think sacrificing liberty is the solution. That would be like amputating an arm to cure a hangnail. Also, there is no such thing as perfection. Everything has pros and cons; you just have to weigh them. Sometimes the pros are well worth the cons, such as the case with freedom of speech. Hearing others occasionally say something deemed "offensive" is a small price to pay to be able to share your own thoughts and feelings freely with the rest of society.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Gun ownership is something that has been debated ad neuseum here on RF for years. Attempting to present a well reasoned and substantiated argument is an exercise in frustration and futility if people aren't willing to examine it honestly and objectively. Why write a bunch of paragraphs when people will have already dismissed it after the first few words?
A lot of RFers' ideologies can be boiled down to bumper sticker slogans with a lot of invested ego and emotion. This is one of the reasons I've took a break from RF in the first place.

But if you're genuinely interested I could dig up one of many an old thread and copy and paste my arguments from it.

I think we can agree that we have had that dance a few times already.

I truly believe we just can't convince each other, except perhaps if something rather unexpected happens.

Criminal and violent behavior is a psychological and sociological (and thus cultural) thing. It's not caused by the mere presence and availability of an inanimate object. Look at Switzerland. Where is their crime and violence? Yes, the U.S. has it's problems, but I don't think sacrificing liberty is the solution. That would be like amputating an arm to cure a hangnail. Also, there is no such thing as perfection. Everything has pros and cons; you just have to weigh them. Sometimes the pros are well worth the cons, such as the case with freedom of speech. Hearing others occasionally say something deemed "offensive" is a small price to pay to be able to share your own thoughts and feelings freely with the rest of society.

I don't think sacrificing liberty is a solution either.

Nor do I think effective gun control involves sacrifice of liberty, except in the most technical and pedantic of ways.
 
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