Temple & Sanhedrin Records

[CMike]

The Sanhedrin functioned when the Jews were under their own rule.

That is something the Christians haven't yet figured out.

 

[metis]

It seems like in the First Temple era and possibly the Exilic era, the local court was not a beit din per se, but a court of the local elders. The way it seems to have worked was that ten elders of the local area would gather on market days (or every day, in cities) at the gates of the town or city, and there-- with other elders, if possible, and with citizens of the town as well sometimes-- would hear and judge cases, from petty torts to capital cases, and serve as witnesses to marriages, divorces, yibum (levirate marriage) and chalitzah (refusal of levirate marriage and release of the woman involved). Such is the way it is depicted in Torah, and on such occasions as legal matters are referenced in the rest of Tanach-- the final chapter of Ruth is a great example of this.

This is why the language used in Torah tends to reflect this scenario, such as v'shaftu ha-edah ("the congregation/community will judge" cf. Bamidbar 35, the laws of manslaughter and the cities of refuge).

But wouldn't even a local court of elders deciding on various matters, which I would assume would also include the application of the Law, also constitute a beit din, even if it was handled in somewhat of a different manner?

 

[CMike]

There are those who trace the Sanhedrin back to the counsel of 70 elders chosen, according to the Torah, by Moses, B'midbar 11:16, and claim an unbroken chain through to the beginning of the 5th cenury C.E.. The Talmud references Saul as the nasi and Jonathan as the av beit din (Mo'ed Katan 26a) and there are those who point elsewhere in the Tanakh, to Divrei Hayamim Bet 19:8, as referencing the Sanhedrin.

Personally, I suspect that the origins of the Sanhedrin, as we know it, are post-exilic.

In regard to records, I note that there is a reference in 2nd Maccabees, if I remember correctly, to a library in Jerusalem. If there were indeed such a library it is possible that there were records there. In any event I suspect that any records of the time were lost no later than when the Temple was destroyed. I doubt the Romans would have found them of such use that they would have carried them off.

Remember it is only a serendipitous set of circumstances that preserved the Dead Sea scrolls. Remember as well how comparatively recent is the earliest known Torah scroll.

"Those" aren't a source and neither are you.

 

[Levite]

But wouldn't even a local court of elders deciding on various matters, which I would assume would also include the application of the Law, also constitute a beit din, even if it was handled in somewhat of a different manner?

Obviously, the traditional view is that these elders and judges were rabbis, and thus their courts were batei din. However, since there is no historical foundation for that presumption, we could maybe say they were proto-forms of the bet din hedyotot, which is a bet din comprised of experts without rabbinic ordination.... But honestly, I think it was something else: I have no problem with the idea that our legal tradition includes evolution of both ideas and methodologies, and that part of the great debt we owe to Our Rabbis is the way they shaped and gave structure to halachah in the sense of Torah laws in practical application.

 

[metis]

Obviously, the traditional view is that these elders and judges were rabbis, and thus their courts were batei din. However, since there is no historical foundation for that presumption, we could maybe say they were proto-forms of the bet din hedyotot, which is a bet din comprised of experts without rabbinic ordination.... But honestly, I think it was something else: I have no problem with the idea that our legal tradition includes evolution of both ideas and methodologies, and that part of the great debt we owe to Our Rabbis is the way they shaped and gave structure to halachah in the sense of Torah laws in practical application.

Thanks a lot for your explanations, but I have at least one more question: what the heck is a "batei din"?

 

[Levite]

Thanks a lot for your explanations, but I have at least one more question: what the heck is a "batei din"?

The plural of bet din.

 

[metis]

The plural of bet din.

Shows you my "expertise" at Hebrew.

Thanks.

 

[RabbiO]

The Sanhedrin functioned when the Jews were under their own rule.

That is something the Christians haven't yet figured out.

The Talmud indicates that the Sanhedrin was fully functional until forty years before the destruction of the Temple which would be well into the Roman occupation. According to the Talmud, at that time, the Sanhedrin ceased to hear death penalty cases. (Sanhedrin 41a)

 

[Levite]

The Talmud indicates that the Sanhedrin was fully functional until forty years before the destruction of the Temple which would be well into the Roman occupation. According to the Talmud, at that time, the Sanhedrin ceased to hear death penalty cases. (Sanhedrin 41a)

To be fair, they did continue to hear non-capital cases and make interpretations and so forth for a fair period after that point....

 

[RabbiO]

To be fair, they did continue to hear non-capital cases and make interpretations and so forth for a fair period after that point....

I answered as I did since I did not know if the poster I responded to was asserting that there was no Sanhedrin at the time of Jesus or whether he was, by mentioning Christians, alluding simply to the idea that the Sanhedrin would not have been in a position to condemn Jesus to death at that time.

 

[CMike]

The Talmud indicates that the Sanhedrin was fully functional until forty years before the destruction of the Temple which would be well into the Roman occupation. According to the Talmud, at that time, the Sanhedrin ceased to hear death penalty cases. (Sanhedrin 41a)

That was one opinion.

You and the Christian recreationists agree.

Big surprise.

Sanhedrin - My Jewish Learning

Authority Since the Sanhedrin

When the Roman government abolished the office of Nasi, the Sanhedrin came to an end. There was no longer any central authority for Jews, although the Babylonian Geonim did enjoy a measure of authority for Jews in other parts of the world.

 

[RabbiO]

That was one opinion.

You and the Christian recreationists agree.

Big surprise.

You seem to be of a mind that it is insufficient to simply disagree on an issue. You seem to be of a mind that any disagreement with the opinion of another poster must also include a gratuitious attempt at character assassination.

Why is that?

 

[CMike]

Why do you do it repeatedly?

Pot kettle

 

[RabbiO]

Why do you do it repeatedly?

Pot kettle

Shall we take this off the forum and on to private messaging in an attempt to clear the air between us?