Tell the World

[TransmutingSoul]

Well William Miller told the world that 1844 was the year awaited by many.

So why did they not see what they had predicted and expected?

I see He got it right.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

So why did they not see what they had predicted and expected?

Because they were waiting for the same Jesus to drop down out of the sky, and many are still waiting.
I consider that very sad.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because they were waiting for the same Jesus to drop down out of the sky, and many are still waiting.
I consider that very sad.

I just wonder why they saw it needed a reinterpretation.

Why not think outside the box?

You have given the key though, the expectations had delivered an unrealistic view of what they needed to look for.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

"Don't be superstitious, and don't let people make a fool of you." That is what is needed to be told to the world.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

"Don't be superstitious, and don't let people make a fool of you." That is what is needed to be told to the world.

That's good advice.

Yet they were on the trail of the most great event many are waiting for.

To think they got the year right.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

My advice goes waste on you.

 

[Left Coast]

It's not uncommon for followers of a prophet to reinterpret prophecies made by the prophet after they don't come to pass, to rationalize their belief in them.

We saw it recently with the the people who were convinced Jesus was coming back in 2011 based on their Biblical interpretations. And the JWs who reinterpreted prophecies about 1914 (and before that 1877, IIRC).

There's a reason the aftermath of Miller's prophecies is called "The Great Disappointment."

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

 

[CG Didymus]

I just wonder why they saw it needed a reinterpretation.

Why not think outside the box?

You have given the key though, the expectations had delivered an unrealistic view of what they needed to look for.

Regards Tony

Well hooray for the Baha'is. And the Millerites were looking for Jesus to return in 1844, but, instead, it was The Bab... the forerunner of the one they were expecting, Baha'u'llah.

But how sound was his interpretations and calculations?

Daniel 8:3 I looked up, and there before me was a ram with two horns...
5 ...suddenly a goat with a prominent horn between its eyes came...
7 I saw it attack the ram furiously, striking the ram and shattering its two horns. The ram was powerless to stand against it; the goat knocked it to the ground and trampled on it, and none could rescue the ram from its power. 8 The goat became very great, but at the height of its power the large horn was broken off, and in its place four prominent horns grew up...
​

Now the important part...

9 Out of one of them came another horn, which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the Beautiful Land. 10 It grew until it reached the host of the heavens, and it threw some of the starry host down to the earth and trampled on them. 11 It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down. 12 Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.​

Whoever this was, took away the daily sacrifice and threw down the sanctuary.

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”​

So, someone takes away the daily sacrifice and causes desolation, but after 2300 evenings and mornings the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.
When did the sanctuary get thrown down and by whom? From the year that happened, then start counting the 2300 days, years or whatever you want.

But wait there is more...

Daniel 9:25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ ...26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death... The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.​

This is where William Miller got the 457BC. The year that one of the decrees to rebuild Jerusalem went out. But why start counting the 2300 years from that? That is not when things got desecrated.

Here the Anointed one is killed, and the city destroyed. Who is this ruler that does this? Because he is the one, who in the middle of one seven, puts an end to the sacrifice.
When did this happen? Is it after the sixty-two sevens after the anointed one is killed?

Then...

Daniel 12:11 “From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.
​

So again, the starting point is when the daily sacrifice was stopped, and the abomination set up. Which was when? Then, add 1290 and 1335 days, years or whatever. If you're not going to start then, how, going by the context, can you justify where you start counting?

​

 

[CG Didymus]

It's not uncommon for followers of a prophet to reinterpret prophecies made by the prophet after they don't come to pass, to rationalize their belief in them.

We saw it recently with the the people who were convinced Jesus was coming back in 2011 based on their Biblical interpretations. And the JWs who reinterpreted prophecies about 1914 (and before that 1877, IIRC).

There's a reason the aftermath of Miller's prophecies is called "The Great Disappointment."

Great Disappointment - Wikipedia

The point Baha'is are trying to make is that William Miller got it right. The "Christ", Baha'u'llah, did come in 1844. Oops, I mean The Bab came in 1844. Baha'u'llah proclaimed himself "The Guy" a few years later. I think in 1863. Funny how the main "prophecy" about when the "Christ" returns wasn't about Baha'u'llah. But they also say he is the return of Krishna (Kalki) and the return of Buddha (Maitreya). As I recall, making those prophecies work for them took some doing.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The point Baha'is are trying to make is that William Miller got it right. The "Christ", Baha'u'llah, did come in 1844. Oops, I mean The Bab came in 1844. Baha'u'llah proclaimed himself "The Guy" a few years later. I think in 1863. Funny how the main "prophecy" about when the "Christ" returns wasn't about Baha'u'llah. But they also say he is the return of Krishna (Kalki) and the return of Buddha (Maitreya). As I recall, making those prophecies work for them took some doing.

Maybe what Baha'is saying is that the essence and wisdom of the past masters rose within the Bab and Baha'u'llah. So they are heavenly representation of all the former spiritual masters?

My understanding may be totally off, of course.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The point Baha'is are trying to make is that William Miller got it right. The "Christ", Baha'u'llah, did come in 1844. Oops, I mean The Bab came in 1844. Baha'u'llah proclaimed himself "The Guy" a few years later. I think in 1863. Funny how the main "prophecy" about when the "Christ" returns wasn't about Baha'u'llah. But they also say he is the return of Krishna (Kalki) and the return of Buddha (Maitreya). As I recall, making those prophecies work for them took some doing.

Yes and that is all that really needs to be said, as history has shown it was 1844.

That can not be changed, now it is only our own choices of heart.

The issue one can face here is, may be if they see the Holy Spirit is other than Christ.

The Bab mirrored the life and Message of Jesus and suffered the same fate.

I see Christ is always anointed as God so chooses.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well hooray for the Baha'is. And the Millerites were looking for Jesus to return in 1844, but, instead, it was The Bab... the forerunner of the one they were expecting, Baha'u'llah.

I say hooray for William Miller, he first looked at this in 1816 and by 1818, after 2 years of study had found his answer in Daniel. He used the starting point from the information he had gathered from Biblical Scholars.

Meanwhile Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 and the Bab in 1819. Much like the birth of Jesus, there were already people preparing the way, telling of the event to come.

The rest is up to each of us.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I say hooray for William Miller, he first looked at this in 1816 and by 1818, after 2 years of study had found his answer in Daniel. He used the starting point from the information he had gathered from Biblical Scholars.

Meanwhile Baha'u'llah was born in 1817 and the Bab in 1819. Much like the birth of Jesus, there were already people preparing the way, telling of the event to come.

The rest is up to each of us.

Regards Tony

But you still don't look at Daniel yourself and know for yourself that his calculations are true or false. If a Baha'i doesn't do this, then people are going to investigate for themselves and see that there are problems with anyone claiming that Daniel's prophecies come to 1844. It's like how a math teacher needs the student to show their work. There is too much in Daniel's prophecy that is ignored.

I asked simple questions based on the context. Is there a Baha'i Faith answer? It's too easy to take verses out of context and juggle them around and come up with a number or something that fits your religion... Like the 1290 day and 1335 day prophecies in Daniel 12. Here's the UHJ explanation...

The year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.

(1335 days) The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.​

To me this is juggling. To you... I'm sure this is exactly what the context is saying. Is it really? Can you show me how the context shows the 1290 day prophecy starting ten years before the Hegira and the 1335 day prophecy starting with the Hegira? Then there's is always juggling between lunar or solar years.

Do most people care about this stuff? No. Do most Baha'is? Probably no for them too. But Baha'is are supposed to know and investigate for themselves and expect others to investigate to see whether the claims of the Baha'i Faith are true. All I did is read Daniel for myself and compared it to what William Miller said and what Baha'is say, and I came up with questions. Questions that, I would hope, the Baha'i Faith can answer.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But you still don't look at Daniel yourself and know for yourself that his calculations are true or false. If a Baha'i doesn't do this, then people are going to investigate for themselves and see that there are problems with anyone claiming that Daniel's prophecies come to 1844. It's like how a math teacher needs the student to show their work. There is too much in Daniel's prophecy that is ignored.

I asked simple questions based on the context. Is there a Baha'i Faith answer? It's too easy to take verses out of context and juggle them around and come up with a number or something that fits your religion... Like the 1290 day and 1335 day prophecies in Daniel 12. Here's the UHJ explanation...

The year 1290 from the proclamation of the mission of Muhammad was the year 1280 of the Hegira, or 1863-64 A.D.

(1335 days) The Tablets suggest that the prophecy is fulfilled by two different dates. The first derives from the centenary of the Declaration of Bahá'u'lláh; the second is calculated from 622 A.D. -- hence, 1963 and 1957.​

To me this is juggling. To you... I'm sure this is exactly what the context is saying. Is it really? Can you show me how the context shows the 1290 day prophecy starting ten years before the Hegira and the 1335 day prophecy starting with the Hegira? Then there's is always juggling between lunar or solar years.

Do most people care about this stuff? No. Do most Baha'is? Probably no for them too. But Baha'is are supposed to know and investigate for themselves and expect others to investigate to see whether the claims of the Baha'i Faith are true. All I did is read Daniel for myself and compared it to what William Miller said and what Baha'is say, and I came up with questions. Questions that, I would hope, the Baha'i Faith can answer.

Are you telling a Baha'i what he can or can not personally believe in
Just because it does not seem logical to you, does it mean it has to be a false teaching?

The more important question is: what do you get from the teaching of the Bab or Baha'u'llah?

If the answer is, you don’t get nothing from it. Then answer is.

Walk away and find the answer you seek in what you believe to be the truth you accept.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do most people care about this stuff? No. Do most Baha'is? Probably no for them too. But Baha'is are supposed to know and investigate for themselves and expect others to investigate to see whether the claims of the Baha'i Faith are true. All I did is read Daniel for myself and compared it to what William Miller said and what Baha'is say, and I came up with questions. Questions that, I would hope, the Baha'i Faith can answer.

The Bab and Baha'u'llah addressed their Messages to all humanity. They have never hidden the Message.

A Baha'i is a Baha'i because they embraced those Messages. The Prophecy is there as a witness to what they revealed to us, not really as a path to find them.

William Miller told the world, way back in the early 1800's what was about to unfold. Unfold it did, I am sad for them, for not embracing all they were praying for.

There was news articles coming from Persia to America in 1846

Treated the same as Christ and his followers, no less.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Are you telling a Baha'i what he can or can not personally believe in
Just because it does not seem logical to you, does it mean it has to be a false teaching?

The more important question is: what do you get from the teaching of the Bab or Baha'u'llah?

If the answer is, you don’t get nothing from it. Then answer is.

Walk away and find the answer you seek in what you believe to be the truth you accept.

Baha'is claim that they believe a person should investigate the truth for themselves and not take someone else's word for it. Have they investigated William Miller's calculations and interpretations? Or... because it ends up with Jesus returning in 1844, are they happy just to accept that it must be right?

The importance of the Baha'i Faith is immense. Baha'u'llah is not only claiming to be the return of Christ, but of Krishna, Buddha and the ones expected in Islam. Is he? Do you "get" things out of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith? If so, great. But do you believe he is The One? The Promised Messiah? The One who has replaced your prophet and your religion with new and updated teachings from God?

Have you checked to see if what he claims is true? Supposedly, he has fulfilled all the prophecies of every major religion. Has he? Do you care? Is it okay if he hasn't? Is there such a thing as a "false" Christ? A person claiming to be the Messiah but isn't? And how would we know?

Baha'is are putting claims out there that must be backed up with some evidence. That has been the problem. They make the claims and when questioned, there is a lack of evidence. They are building a world-wide system to govern the whole world. Is it worth it to double check and make sure what they say is true?

And if true, shouldn't both of us join the Baha'i Faith and help spread their message? The message that the Promised One has come and there are new laws and new teachings we should be following.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Baha'is claim that they believe a person should investigate the truth for themselves and not take someone else's word for it. Have they investigated William Miller's calculations and interpretations? Or... because it ends up with Jesus returning in 1844, are they happy just to accept that it must be right?

The importance of the Baha'i Faith is immense. Baha'u'llah is not only claiming to be the return of Christ, but of Krishna, Buddha and the ones expected in Islam. Is he? Do you "get" things out of the teachings of the Baha'i Faith? If so, great. But do you believe he is The One? The Promised Messiah? The One who has replaced your prophet and your religion with new and updated teachings from God?

Have you checked to see if what he claims is true? Supposedly, he has fulfilled all the prophecies of every major religion. Has he? Do you care? Is it okay if he hasn't? Is there such a thing as a "false" Christ? A person claiming to be the Messiah but isn't? And how would we know?

Baha'is are putting claims out there that must be backed up with some evidence. That has been the problem. They make the claims and when questioned, there is a lack of evidence. They are building a world-wide system to govern the whole world. Is it worth it to double check and make sure what they say is true?

And if true, shouldn't both of us join the Baha'i Faith and help spread their message? The message that the Promised One has come and there are new laws and new teachings we should be following.

I don't need to check other people religious belief that way, I think each Baha'i can believe what they do, since it is their personal belief.
Since I am not a Baha'i my self, it is not my wish or duty to tell them :you are wrong to believe so and so.
Baha'i has their system and teachings.

And I respect them for that.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Bab and Baha'u'llah addressed their Messages to all humanity. They have never hidden the Message.

A Baha'i is a Baha'i because they embraced those Messages. The Prophecy is there as a witness to what they revealed to us, not really as a path to find them.

William Miller told the world, way back in the early 1800's what was about to unfold. Unfold it did, I am sad for them, for not embracing all they were praying for.

There was news articles coming from Persia to America in 1846

View attachment 58429

Treated the same as Christ and his followers, no less.

Regards Tony

Whoever this was, took away the daily sacrifice and threw down the sanctuary.
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”

14 He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.”So, someone takes away the daily sacrifice and causes desolation, but after 2300 evenings and mornings the sanctuary will be reconsecrated.
When did the sanctuary get thrown down and by whom? From the year that happened, then start counting the 2300 days, years or whatever you want.

All you have to do is read Daniel in context. Do Baha'is have an explanation and interpretation for it? Who took away the daily sacrifice and set up the abomination? What year did that happen? In context, why not start counting the 2300 mornings and evenings from that date?

 

[Vinayaka]

"Don't be superstitious, and don't let people make a fool of you." That is what is needed to be told to the world.

I'd say 'Don't make a fool of yourself.' Tell people that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't need to check other people religious belief that way, I think each Baha'i can believe what they do, since it is their personal belief.
Since I am not a Baha'i my self, it is not my wish or duty to tell them :you are wrong to believe so and so.
Baha'i has their system and teachings.

And I respect them for that.

They will a

Are you telling a Baha'i what he can or can not personally believe in
Just because it does not seem logical to you, does it mean it has to be a false teaching?

The more important question is: what do you get from the teaching of the Bab or Baha'u'llah?

If the answer is, you don’t get nothing from it. Then answer is.

Walk away and find the answer you seek in what you believe to be the truth you accept.

This might be helpful to you, if you haven't read it already.

What is Baha'u'llah's Message to the Sufis?