Taoism, A Potential 'New' Religion?

[Scarlett Wampus]

Healing/martial arts, meditation, I Ching divination/study and the Tao Te Ching continue to become more and more popular. Many 'westerners' call themselves Taoists now but the Taoism they are familiar with is usually quite different to the native Taoist traditions of China. I've read a lot of criticism over this, concerned that the impression many have of Taoism is inauthentic and/or undermines the value of traditional Taoism. Although I'm sympathetic to such arguments many people are obviously finding 'western' Taoism fulfills a genuine need in them while traditional Taoism can appear too alien or, I'm afraid to say, archaic & superstitious. There are many pockets of such people popping up all over the place that I think its only a matter of time before they start to bunch together in large enough networks to form some kind of organised western genus of Taoism. What do others think?

 

[ChrisP]

Healing/martial arts, meditation, I Ching divination/study and the Tao Te Ching continue to become more and more popular. Many 'westerners' call themselves Taoists now but the Taoism they are familiar with is usually quite different to the native Taoist traditions of China. I've read a lot of criticism over this, concerned that the impression many have of Taoism is inauthentic and/or undermines the value of traditional Taoism. Although I'm sympathetic to such arguments many people are obviously finding 'western' Taoism fulfills a genuine need in while traditional Taoism can appear too alien or, I'm afraid to say, archaic & superstitious. There are many pockets of such people popping up all over the place that I think its only a matter of time before they start to bunch together in large enough networks to form some kind of organised western genus of Taoism. What do others think?

I think we call it Taoism, because that is how we were introduced to it, but having read the Tao, and looked at how Taoism is practiced in China we have realised that often the two are quite different. There is a lot of Bhuddism mixed in with Taoism in China now. But I do not call myself Taoist to the people I know as generally this is what they understand Taoism to be. Containing deities folklore etc. I just believe in one energy that manifests itself in 3 parts.

I just prefer to think of it as "the energy/life force/way of things" (usually the third of those) and not give it a name, which is why I do not have Taoism listed as my religion. Another more western way of explaining it is the Greek word Gnosis.

 

[cfer]

That's interesting. I've been trying to explore Taoism for a while, but I never seem to get very far. But now I'm wondering if the things I'm reading are authentic, or "true" Taoist writings.

Is there such a thing as "authentic Taoism"? Wouldn't Taosits view this evolution, if you will, as the natural progression of things? So, in a way, this "new" Taoism is very Taoist. Right?

 

[ChrisP]

That's interesting. I've been trying to explore Taoism for a while, but I never seem to get very far. But now I'm wondering if the things I'm reading are authentic, or "true" Taoist writings.

Is there such a thing as "authentic Taoism"? Wouldn't Taosits view this evolution, if you will, as the natural progression of things? So, in a way, this "new" Taoism is very Taoist. Right?

Hehehe what is new, what is old? What is authentic? any idea is authentic regardless. Try not to dwell on the source of learning. The source of all is where all knowledge springs from after all.

WHEN all the world recognises beauty as beauty,
this in itself is ugliness.
When all the world recognises good as good, this in
itself is evil.

Indeed, the hidden and the manifest give birth ​

to each other.
Difficult and easy complement each other.
Long and short exhibit each other.
High and low set measure to each other.
Voice and sound harmonize each other.
Back and front follow each other.

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Therefore, the Sage manages his affairs without ado, ​

And spreads his teaching without talking.
He denies nothing to the teeming things.
He rears them, but lays no claim to them.
He does his work, but sets no store by it.
He accomplishes his task, but does not dwell upon it. [/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And yet it is just because he does not dwell on it ​

That nobody can ever take it away from him. [/font]

New Taoism is generally philosophical based upon the writings of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. Chinese Taoism has various gods and other beliefs such as oracular divination (see I Ching)​

I myself belive in divination, but that is neither here nor there regarding the search for understanding.​

Taoism is about the interconnection of all things through the flow of energy or Tao. There are many different writings on this subject particularly in Hindi and Bhuddist religions. I find these are quite convoluted and overly complicated, whereas the Tao is simple. The world is simple so the way of things must be simple too. ​

Chinese Taoism has evolved into a collection of superstitions that certainly contains Taoism, but is no longer solely the province of the teachings of Lao Tzu. This is probably untrue of traditionalist Tai Chi practioners though.​

 

[cfer]

Speaking of the I-Ching, is there a good resource for using it? I had a book from the library once, but it was pretty bad.

There's nothing special to have to buy to use it, is there?

I still think that if Taoism is to stay true to itself, it will evolve and incorporate that evolution into itself. Isn't the the philosophy behind wu wei?

 

[ChrisP]

Speaking of the I-Ching, is there a good resource for using it? I had a book from the library once, but it was pretty bad.

There's nothing special to have to buy to use it, is there?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1590302605/qid=1136573699/sr=8-3/ref=pd_bbs_3/104-3219203-8532765?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

I have this one book ^^^ which is fairly (too bloody) comprehensive. Understanding the hexagrams, and the story behind their meaning is fairly important. At the end of the day it comes down to being able to open your mind and imagine possibilities. Whether the I Ching works or not to me is not important. It just allows me to think of solutions to my problems.

I still think that if Taoism is to stay true to itself, it will evolve and incorporate that evolution into itself. Isn't the the philosophy behind wu wei?

Sure is. I don't think wu wei or the Tao has anything to do with these guys though. http://www.thetao.info/tao/gods.htm

Although they all represent areas of humanity I know to be true, personification doesn't achieve any end but that of superstition. Everything has it's representation in reality without creating a fictional one.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

That's interesting. I've been trying to explore Taoism for a while, but I never seem to get very far. But now I'm wondering if the things I'm reading are authentic, or "true" Taoist writings.

Is there such a thing as "authentic Taoism"? Wouldn't Taosits view this evolution, if you will, as the natural progression of things? So, in a way, this "new" Taoism is very Taoist. Right?

ChrisP knocked it on the head straight away. I can see possible confusing arising though so perhaps it would be useful to make a distinction between Taoism as a thing-in-the-world and the ineffable Tao. You could argue that there is authentic and inauthentic Taoism, and it matters to people so it is right to respond to that. Yet with Tao its as ChrisP said, 'any idea is authentic regardless'. Reminds me of Bodhidharma, 'limitlessly open, nothing is sacred'.

If you're reading an English translation of a Taoist text then yeah, it is an authentic English translation of a Taoist text. If you're reading a book written by a Jesuit priest about the philosophy of Taoism then yeah, it is an authentic book on Taoist philosophy by a Jesuit priest.

I suppose to be inauthentic something or someone would have to resemble a traditionally Taoist thing inappropriately or in ignorance of its original significance. For instance, if you falsely claimed you were taught by a great Taoist Master to improve sales of your books and had little skill in or even knowledge of the Taoist arts. Another more forgivable example would be to decorate your flat with Taoist symbolism for show without any understanding of what it represented.

Again, the above is different to Tao, the very Way itself. :bonk:In the past I've been left speechless by people who speak of Tao but behave appallingly to others. I would come away thinking, "How can they justify that?" Later I realised it was pointless to hold ideas about who or what was more 'Tao'. To hear it sounds so obvious yet I was confused for years. As Lao Tzu said, 'if you try to possess it, you will destroy it'.

 

[Master Vigil]

From my studies with religious Taoists, the western understanding is very disrespectful to their tradition. To philosophical Taoists, they often say one thing that sticks in my mind...

"The Tao never stops for one second, why then should a Taoist?"

So with that thought in mind, why then should Taoism?

 

[ChrisP]

From my studies with religious Taoists, the western understanding is very disrespectful to their tradition. To philosophical Taoists, they often say one thing that sticks in my mind...

"The Tao never stops for one second, why then should a Taoist?"

So with that thought in mind, why then should Taoism?

This is why I prefer not to be known as a Taoist, though the Tao te Ching is my life guide.

Taoism has had 4000ish years to evolve. All religion's have changed over time.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

One book that might be worth looking at is 'The Taoist Manual' by Brock Silvers. It gives a glimpse into many traditional Taoist religious practices. I doubt many of them would migrate well to western lifestyles and attitudes, especially mine, but the book is fascinating and well written.

ChristP I don't like to tell people I'm a Taoist either. If someone asks if I'm religious I usually tell them I'm strongly influenced by Taoism and Zen. Then they usually ask, "What the hell is Taoism and Zen?"

 

[ChrisP]

One book that might be worth looking at is 'The Taoist Manual' by Brock Silvers. It gives a glimpse into many traditional Taoist religious practices. I doubt many of them would migrate well to western lifestyles and attitudes, especially mine, but the book is fascinating and well written.

ChrisP I don't like to tell people I'm a Taoist either. If someone asks if I'm religious I usually tell them I'm strongly influenced by Taoism and Zen. Then they usually ask, "What the hell is Taoism and Zen?"

Hi SW,

I usually say I'm a seeker of gnosis, as opposed gnostic, which usually gets me called a mormon .

Gnosis : Intuitive apprehension of spiritual truths, an esoteric form of knowledge

Explains everything while saying nothing. Peoplesfaces scrunch up as their head goes round in circles. Oh well if all you're looking for in life is a plasma screen TV and a Skyline, then I suppose the spiritual is a passing subject destined for merriment.

 

[mr.guy]

4000ish years? I thought Lao Tzu run around 600 b.c.?

 

[ChrisP]

4000ish years? I thought Lao Tzu run around 600 b.c.?

Depends on who you believe, as always . If you'd like we can go through all the various variantions of variance until we reach a completely irrelevant conclusion :bounce . The precursors of what we now call Taoism were around before Lao Tzu also.

 

[Master Vigil]

The concept of Tao has been in Chinese culture LONG before Lao Tzu. Not sure about 4000 years, but I wouldn't doubt it.

 

[munchkin]

hi approximatly as far as is known 4,800 years, Lau Tzu (whoever that was, ) referenced a sage called huangdi, who lived about 4,700 yrs ago, but we can find reference to Tao, in the works, and reference to fu Hsi, who was about a century before Hunagdi, putting it approximatly as far is is known to date 4,800 yrs ago,

Who, then, is the true founder of the Tao, if not Lao Tzu? Is it Huangdi? No, as it turns out, there was another figure who came before Huangdi by about a century: Fu Hsi (pronounced foo shee). He is not, and perhaps never will be, identified in Western reference works as the originator of the Tao. However, when we go deeper into research, we can see that the I Ching and the trigrams (Ba Gua, the basis of the 64 hexagrams in I Ching) are attributed to him. Fu Hsi was the first of the legendary emperors of ancient China. His reign marked the starting point of Chinese civilization, and the Tao concept that originated at the same time also reflected the spirit of Chinese culture from this ancient beginning. We can see the evidence for this when we get closer to Chinese culture. In this painting to the right, Fu Hsi is shown wearing furs. Below him on the floor we see the Ba Gua trigrams as well as a turtle. Legend has it that Fu Hsi divined the underlying pattern of the cosmos from the strange markings on the back of a turtle.

there re not that many western resources even online, that refer much to either hungdi, and especially Fu Hsi (pronounced Foo Shee) but there are plenty of resources in the Orient. One accesable source online is here,

Taoism.net

i know the author of this article and know he has researched this thoughrly, and been to many of the temples in China, relevent to the article, what he has written is in good faith and as true as can be proven at this time. He is the first to admit there may be errors, especially when dealing with so many years ago, what little research i've found, does back up this article, as well as other Taoists who have looked into this, have foudn the same info

it is certainly very interesting.
we must remeber of course that to look back at such figures alot of info is told in legends, and stories, whihc is how history was passe on in those ancient times, hence the popularity of bards/storytellers/mummers(actors) and thelike.

love and peace
becca

 

[ChrisP]

Wow. Thanks Munchkin.

 

[Master Vigil]

Good stuff munchkin!!

 

[Adam Hockworth]

There are many pockets of such people popping up all over the place that I think its only a matter of time before they start to bunch together in large enough networks to form some kind of organised western genus of Taoism. What do others think?

Look up "Western Taoism" on the net.. there is already a loosely held organization out there. No actually churches, or meditation centers yet. Many Taoists go to Buddhist or Zen type meditation centers.

Is native Chinese Taoism any reflection of the teachings of Laozi?



chokmah

 

[Master Vigil]

Look up "Western Taoism" on the net.. there is already a loosely held organization out there. No actually churches, or meditation centers yet. Many Taoists go to Buddhist or Zen type meditation centers.

This is true. And nothing wrong with it.

Is native Chinese Taoism any reflection of the teachings of Laozi?

Definitely. Not 100 percent of native chinese taoism is derived from the Tao Te Ching, but alot of it is.

 

[mr.guy]

Many Taoists go to Buddhist or Zen type meditation centers.

Don't forget Tai Chi class.