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Syria - to do or not to do??? That is the question

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
We're still in Afghanistan and just got out of Iraq.

Should we be getting involved or in the middle of another war?

I keep hearing some say we're broke so how will we pay for any of this?

Should we continue to provide humanitarian aid?

Should we be arming the rebels?

Who are the rebels and can they be trusted?
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
We're still in Afghanistan and just got out of Iraq.

Should we be getting involved or in the middle of another war?

I keep hearing some say we're broke so how will we pay for any of this?

Should we continue to provide humanitarian aid?

Should we be arming the rebels?

Who are the rebels and can they be trusted?

We shouldn't get involved, end of.

If the Politicians want to get involved, then they can go pick up a gun, fly over there, a die for whatever "cause" they want.

 

Sha'irullah

رسول الآلهة
This is one of those events where I fear American involvement will just ruin Syria. The capability America hast with Islamic centered societies is just pitiful. In my head I believe we can help Syria but in actually as history has told us we cannot.
The minute we step boots onto the ground we only ruin the possible structured government we could have established.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I think if the US gets involved on the ground in Syria an awful, awful lot of young americans are going to get killed.

Can the USA afford or even survive constant war?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Well at this point it looks like logistics support but im sure there will be "advisers" in the country providing assistance if not already. But of course most people will have no trouble guessing where that will lead.

Active ground war using US and/orUK troops.

My question is why are we involving ourselves with the affairs of another foreign country here?

Again the reasons will undoubtedly be varied and inconsistent.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Well at this point it looks like logistics support but im sure there will be "advisers" in the country providing assistance if not already. But of course most people will have no trouble guessing where that will lead.

Active ground war using US and/orUK troops.

My question is why are we involving ourselves with the affairs of another foreign country here?

Again the reasons will undoubtedly be varied and inconsistent.

Going in here means going head to head with Russia. I can't see that ending well.
 

esmith

Veteran Member
The way I see it is that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. The way I see it is the possibility of the expansion of armed aggression against other countries in the region directly or indirectly. There is also the possibility of WMD falling into the hands of groups that would have no qualms about using them against a civilian population center to "make a statement". What would be the consequences of Assad remaining in power? What would the consequences of an unknown entity taking control of Syria? Could the countries of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon meld into one state, and if so what would be the consequences? There are just too many unknowns. If Assad remains in power would his government remain neutral to the situations in other countries in the region? The same question is germane to having another entity taking control. I would hope that those that make the decision make it based on the possibility of establishing a less hostile environment in the region and not on perceived ideology of the situation. Again, only history will determine if the decisions made now will be seen as the right decisions.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Wae, war, war......


small arms to the rebels may be too late so send them heavy weapons!!!!

McCain on the floor with this rhetoric....I thought we were broke and couldn't afford to be spending like this..?

How are we going to pay for this?
 
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Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
The way I see it is that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.
This is basically how I see it, along with "screwed if we do, screwed if we don't". I cannot really see how either situation, getting involved or staying out of it completely, could lead to a positive ending. Although I highly doubt we will resort to an active ground war with US troops.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
I am completely opposed to any outside Western involvement in Syria's civil war.

I do not think that arming one Islamist group against another in a sectarian war that has nothing to do with the protection of our values or way of life, is worth one of our soldier's lives. To risk a massive conflagration involving the entire Middle East and all the world's main powers, for the sake of the Syrian opposition is not a just war - it is a pointless, needless waste of human life and a criminal escalation of an already obscene beast that has robbed 92,000 innocent Syrians of their lives.

Nevertheless, I hold Russia and Iran accountable for being the first to get involved in the civil war when it became apparent that Assad was losing. Had they not got involved and simply let the conflict among Syrians naturally proceed as it should have and run its course as a normal civil war without outside involvement, and with simple humanitarian aid and refugee help being given to the innocent victims of the war, Assad would have fallen and the opposition would have formed a new, rag-tag government out of liberal secularists and Islamists that would probably have resulted in another Muslim brotherhood state. That would have been bad but at least we would have had peace in the region. Iran, however, couldn't allow this because losing Syria would mean losing its foothold to hegemony in the region and a key border through which to one day strike at Israel. Russia, likewise, held a grudge against the West for its involvement in Libya and desired a "one-up-manship" show of manpower and muscle, trying to re-assert Russia's worldwide influence after decades of decline.

Now, thanks to Iran illicitly sending its forces into the country, along with its client Hezbollah, and Russia shipping arms to Assad, the conflict has become a protracted, Shia-Sunni war of annihilation, that could engulf the entire region and even - dare I say it - the world, if it remains uncontained, with the superpowers facing off against each other in a new and completely unnecessary cold war through proxies.

As a result of this, the US has seen that the conflict has become "unequal". One side had the full support of foreign ground troops and international aid from Russia, whilst the other was left weak, divided and with no foreign aid.

The USA, desirous to make it an equal fight and fearful of Iran dominating Syria, as well as a newly aggressive Russia under Putin which wants to influence Middle East affairs (as a result of Obama re-focusing America away from the Middle East to the Pacific in his famous "east Asia pivot"), is therefore now sending arms to help the beleaguered opposition.

There is no good outcome here but I utterly oppose us sending aid to the rebels, despite the despicable unfair advantage now being given to Assad and mindful of the Spanish Civil War in the 30s when the West did not intervene but allowed Nazi Germany to do so for Franco, leading to him winning the war. I am sorry, deeply, that Iran and Russia have decided to turn a civil war into a regional conflict. I am sorry that Assad is committing a genocide against his own people. I am sorry that the rebels are also committing atrocities, particularly against Christians with their Islamist factions. My heart goes out to every innocent victim of this war but for crying out loud, we don't need to escalate it further!

Let us send humanitarian aid but let us not help escalate this beast any further. Syria is not our war. It is a bloody, horrid crime against humanity but we are not helping the situation by surrendering our neutrality and choosing a side.
 
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InformedIgnorance

Do you 'know' or believe?
AFAIK (and please if you have sources of information I do not, please share) the UN reports of several instances of very small scale chemical weapon use were unable to determine who used the weapons or how. In addition, US press reports claiming no 'reliable' evidence that the rebels had not used chemical weapons (suggesting that they have such evidence but that they have decided it is unreliable).

In addition, the repeated use of these weapons on such a small scale seems ludicrously irrational from a Syrian perspective in terms of the paucity of any potential strategic and military gains as opposed to the overwhelming nature of potential threats given the strong US language on this specific issue. Though it could be argued that this might be a way that the regime might look to undermine the credibility of US involvement in the struggle given Iraqi WMDs; it would be just as if not more likely to have been a move by rebels looking to involve outside powers, or else simple misinformation.

Lack of Russian commitment to isolating Assad after they were presented with US evidence suggests either that they found such evidence lacking or else that the Russians have decided that the ongoing encroachment of the US into the middle east has reached such a level of saturation as to have become a strategic obstacle (either case is quite possible).

Claims about the Syrian government's use of weapons are rather problematic for me to accept at this time (particularly in light of the US governments creative use of intelligence to support political objectives despite their nonsensical strategic implications). I certainly do not support the idea of arming the rebels in response given their atrocities.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Well, first we would need an actual budget, which hasn't happened in how many years? :D

That's overrated...we didn't have one for Sandy Relief.

The Senate submitted their budget and been wanting to hold the debates to reconcile the House "budget" with the Senate's.....but some in the GOP/Tea Party members are blocking the debate. So this talking point about no budget is moot when there's now two budgets that can't be debated because of childish behavior......


Senate Republicans Oppose Budget Blockade By Tea Party In Growing GOP Feud

:sad:
 

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
That's overrated...we didn't have one for Sandy Relief.

The Senate submitted their budget and been wanting to hold the debates to reconcile the House "budget" with the Senate's.....but some in the GOP/Tea Party members are blocking the debate. So this talking point about no budget is moot when there's now two budgets that can't be debated because of childish behavior......


Senate Republicans Oppose Budget Blockade By Tea Party In Growing GOP Feud

:sad:
Yes, it is all the republicans.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
I don't see why it is US responsibility to aid Syria. Where are all the other developed countries? We have our own problems, let some European countries pay for it, or Canada, or Japan. Better yet, let Isreal help them. That will go a long way towards establishing some kind of peace and stability between the middle east and western cultures. I'm tired of giving aid to countries who just turn on us when they win.

Or another option, let's leave them to their own devices. Some of the greatest cultural strides in western culture happened when extreme oppression and met a violent revolution. By helping them, are we depriving them of that learning experience that prompted so much positive cultural growth for western civilization?
 
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