Survey: Nearly 25% of European Jews Afraid to Be Jewish

[Flankerl]

No one is forced to import anything. Just like eating meat is not a binding law for us. And no iam not a vegetarian.

Its perfectly possible to keep kosher(which is more than not mixing meat and dairy, if i really need to mention this) without eating meat.


But really it boils down to this: Its either religious freedom or animal rights. And i think its going to be really tough to explain to any non jew that a cow which bleeds out and is doing a little cowboogie on the floor is perfectly alright.

You cant have it both ways. Its either A or B. And since B actually involves living beings that are about to get killed the non jews are probably going to support them.

 

[Akivah]

You're slipping Flanker. If you are going to hang your hat on animal rights, then you need to be consistent and outlaw hunting, meat eating, and any use of animal products.

 

[Levite]

No one is forced to import anything. Just like eating meat is not a binding law for us. And no iam not a vegetarian.

Its perfectly possible to keep kosher(which is more than not mixing meat and dairy, if i really need to mention this) without eating meat.

But really it boils down to this: Its either religious freedom or animal rights. And i think its going to be really tough to explain to any non jew that a cow which bleeds out and is doing a little cowboogie on the floor is perfectly alright.

You cant have it both ways. Its either A or B. And since B actually involves living beings that are about to get killed the non jews are probably going to support them.

If this were really about animal rights, they wouldn't have gotten round to kosher/halal slaughter until after they'd outlawed factory farming, cattle antibiotics, and legislated that all meat/egg animals in Europe be free range, organic, grass-fed/equivalent, and humanely raised, to say nothing of legislating that all such animals be individually slaughtered in calm conditions, under anesthesia. Or they would outlaw raising and slaughtering meat animals altogether.

But they haven't done that.

They just went for the Jews and Muslims, and our kinds of slaughter, which are no more torturous or inhumane than any other kind of slaughter currently being used, and much less so than some.

It is about religious freedom. And I'm sorry, but saying, "You are not ritually obligated to eat meat. You can just do without it," is discriminatory. It's legislated prejudice, unless everybody is being told that they can do without meat. The whole point of tolerance and pluralism is that you have to be tolerant to other cultures and religious traditions even when you don't agree with them or see things the same way as they do. Otherwise, it's not tolerance, it's just insisting that everyone agree with you.

All of which, by the way, is not even to mention the Rabbinic custom אין שמחה אלא בבשר ויין ("There can be no celebration without meat and wine," based on a teaching in Pesachim), which is regarded as a serious imperative in traditional communities.

 

[Tarheeler]

There is question I've been wondering about, and this thread is (now) on that subject. Is it against halachah to stun the animal (not kill but incapacitate) before administering the killing blow as required?

 

[CMike]

Also the link I pose dhad an article from Alan Dershowitiz who wrote in the WSJ.

He was visiting Norway, and wanted to speak in some of the Universities about Israel. He is very moderate. He believes in a 2 state solution.

None of the Universities accepted him speaking for free. He usually commands a large amount of bucks to speak.

However, there are many anti-Israel speakes who regularly speak at the Universities.

Finally, he spoke to some student groups, but no Unvisersity officials or staff would come to it.

Also, we had the chabad emissary to Norway speak in my synagogue.

He said He found out it very hard just renting a house for them to meet and pray. In fact, he stated that if people found out about it that he would get evicted.

Oh yeah, importing meat is only legal in very small quantity.

Threfore, for holidays, they had to start importing meat almost a year in advance using multiple people.

That is absurd in a what is supposed to be a democratic country.

 

[CMike]

There is question I've been wondering about, and this thread is (now) on that subject. Is it against halachah to stun the animal (not kill but incapacitate) before administering the killing blow as required?

Yes, the animal is supposed to be in good health.

 

[CMike]

As much as it pains me to agree with Mike, and as much as I wish to distance myself from his disrespect to you, I do think it is simply wrong for Jews in Norway or anywhere else to be forced to import their meat if they wish to keep kosher.

This is who we are. This is our way. If countries want to outlaw it, fine, that may be their prerogative, but in that case they should be clear that tolerance and pluralism are not part of their national values. If that's the case, then the onus is on the Jews living there to decide whether they will import their meat, not eat meat, not keep kosher, or move to a more welcoming and tolerant country.

But it is beyond disingenuous, it is either lying or delusional, for a country to outlaw practices that are specific only to Jews and Muslims, and then claim that they are tolerant, pluralistic, and welcoming of everyone.

They can't have it both ways.

That must have been very painful.

Meat can only be imported in Norway in very small quantity.

 

[Flankerl]

You're slipping Flanker. If you are going to hang your hat on animal rights, then you need to be consistent and outlaw hunting, meat eating, and any use of animal products.

Iam not slipping. In fact i never stated my opinion on the matter.

If this were really about animal rights, they wouldn't have gotten round to kosher/halal slaughter until after they'd outlawed factory farming, cattle antibiotics, and legislated that all meat/egg animals in Europe be free range, organic, grass-fed/equivalent, and humanely raised, to say nothing of legislating that all such animals be individually slaughtered in calm conditions, under anesthesia. Or they would outlaw raising and slaughtering meat animals altogether.

But they haven't done that.

They just went for the Jews and Muslims, and our kinds of slaughter, which are no more torturous or inhumane than any other kind of slaughter currently being used, and much less so than some.

Do you realise what kind of a huge and powerful lobby is behind factory farming?
You'd need a really powerful green party to accomplish that. Germany has the most powerful one and even here this is just a dream.

It is about religious freedom. And I'm sorry, but saying, "You are not ritually obligated to eat meat. You can just do without it," is discriminatory. It's legislated prejudice, unless everybody is being told that they can do without meat. The whole point of tolerance and pluralism is that you have to be tolerant to other cultures and religious traditions even when you don't agree with them or see things the same way as they do. Otherwise, it's not tolerance, it's just insisting that everyone agree with you.

All of which, by the way, is not even to mention the Rabbinic custom אין שמחה אלא בבשר ויין ("There can be no celebration without meat and wine," based on a teaching in Pesachim), which is regarded as a serious imperative in traditional communities.

Pluralism? Norway is largely a secular country.

I know where you are coming from but thats not a real need for meat for non jews. They still see the cow bleeding to death.
Unless you address that you wont get their support.

Meat can only be imported in Norway in very small quantity.

"Meat, meat products, milk and milk products

Meat, meat products, cheese and foodstuffs except dog and cat food, totalling 10 kilos altogether from EEA countries. From countries outside the EEA, it is prohibited to bring meat, meat products, milk and milk products in one’s luggage. Such products must be imported through a veterinary border control station, and the goods must be accompanied by a health certificate."

I just hope that you know what a kilo is.

 

[Levite]

Do you realise what kind of a huge and powerful lobby is behind factory farming?
You'd need a really powerful green party to accomplish that. Germany has the most powerful one and even here this is just a dream.
Pluralism? Norway is largely a secular country.

The EU claims both tolerance and pluralism as parts of its charter. The member nations are supposed to follow that lead.

The fact that non-Jews misunderstand shechitah and halal slaughter, or judge it barbaric, is just another form of intolerance and prejudice. The fact that this intolerance gets political headway, but real animal rights and health concerns don't because factory farming has deep pockets and the Jewish community doesn't is precisely what makes this so unacceptable.

 

[CMike]

"Meat, meat products, milk and milk products

Meat, meat products, cheese and foodstuffs except dog and cat food, totalling 10 kilos altogether from EEA countries. From countries outside the EEA, it is prohibited to bring meat, meat products, milk and milk products in one’s luggage. Such products must be imported through a veterinary border control station, and the goods must be accompanied by a health certificate."

I just hope that you know what a kilo is.

That's to enter the country.

That is not this issue.

 

[CMike]

So again: Slaughtering animals in the Kingdom of Norway is a mitzvot? Care to cite the passage of it?

Waiting for it. Take your time.

Eating non kosher food is prohibited for orthodox jews in judaism. To eat kosher meat it has to be slaughtered in a certain way. Norway has made that way illegal.

Norway has also only allowed the importation of meat in small quantity.

You are one unlikeable person.

Sticks and stones...

Yeah iam probably not a true torah jew. Next step would probably be to classify me as a non-jew. With that obviously arrives the classification as an antisemite.

Could you please try and keep your american way of "discussing" things(completely demonising anyone thats doesnt share your opinion) in your country and out of a forum that has become dear to me? Thanks.

It's one thing to not be an orthodox jew. Most jews aren't.

It's a completely another matter to promote laws that keep jews from practicing their religion, such as circumcision and koshering meat.

Frankly, jews have enough enemies, who wish to keep jews from practicing their religion.

To hear such behavior from someone who claims to be a jew is appalling.

 

[CMike]

I know where you are coming from but thats not a real need for meat for non jews. They still see the cow bleeding to death.
Unless you address that you wont get their support.

What do you think happens to an animal once it's shot by a bullet or by an arrow?

It dies with much more pain than the 1 or 2 seconds it takes incapacitate a cow with a knife slicing it's throat.

 

[CMike]

Below is Alan Dershowitz's article regarding his travels to Norway.



http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704474804576222561887244764?mg=reno64-wsj

Norway to Jews: You're Not Welcome Here

Anti-Semitism doesn't even mask itself as anti-Zionism.

Alan M. Dershowitz

Updated March 29, 2011 12:01 a.m. ET
I recently completed a tour of Norwegian universities, where I spoke about international law as applied to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But the tour nearly never happened.

Its sponsor, a Norwegian pro-Israel group, offered to have me lecture without any charge to the three major universities. Norwegian universities generally jump at any opportunity to invite lecturers from elsewhere. When my Harvard colleague Stephen Walt, co-author of "The Israel Lobby," came to Norway, he was immediately invited to present a lecture at the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim. Likewise with Ilan Pappe, a demonizer of Israel who teaches at Oxford.


My hosts expected, therefore, that their offer to have me present a different academic perspective on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be eagerly accepted. I have written half a dozen books on the subject presenting a centrist view in support of the two-state solution. But the universities refused.


The dean of the law faculty at Bergen University said he would be "honored" to have me present a lecture "on the O.J. Simpson case," as long as I was willing to promise not to mention Israel. An administrator at the Trondheim school said that Israel was too "controversial."

The University of Oslo simply said "no" without offering an excuse. That led one journalist to wonder whether the Norwegian universities believe that I am "not entirely house-trained."

Only once before have I been prevented from lecturing at universities in a country. The other country was Apartheid South Africa.

Despite the faculties' refusals to invite me, I delivered three lectures to packed auditoriums at the invitation of student groups. I received sustained applause both before and after the talks.

It was then that I realized why all this happened. At all of the Norwegian universities, there have been efforts to enact academic and cultural boycotts of Jewish Israeli academics. This boycott is directed against Israel's "occupation" of Palestinian land—but the occupation that the boycott supporters have in mind is not of the West Bank but rather of Israel itself. Here is the first line of their petition: "Since 1948 the state of Israel has occupied Palestinian land . . ."

The administrations of the universities have refused to go along with this form of collective punishment of all Israeli academics, so the formal demand for a boycott failed. But in practice it exists. Jewish pro-Israel speakers are subject to a de facto boycott.

The first boycott signatory was Trond Adresen, a professor at Trondheim. About Jews, he has written: "There is something immensely self-satisfied and self-centered at the tribal mentality that is so prevalent among Jews. . . . [They] as a whole, are characterized by this mentality. . . . It is no less legitimate to say such a thing about Jews in 2008-2009 than it was to make the same point about the Germans around 1938."

This line of talk—directed at Jews, not Israel—is apparently acceptable among many in Norway's elite. Consider former Prime Minister Kare Willock's reaction to President Obama's selection of Rahm Emanuel as his first chief of staff: "It does not look too promising, he has chosen a chief of staff who is Jewish." Mr. Willock didn't know anything about Mr. Emanuel's views—he based his criticism on the sole fact that Mr. Emanuel is a Jew. Perhaps unsurprisingly, fewer than 1,000 Jews live in Norway today.

The country's foreign minister recently wrote an article justifying his contacts with Hamas. He said that the essential philosophy of Norway is "dialogue." That dialogue, it turns out, is one-sided. Hamas and its supporters are invited into the dialogue, but supporters of Israel are excluded by an implicit, yet very real, boycott against pro-Israel views.

 

[Flankerl]

The EU claims both tolerance and pluralism as parts of its charter. The member nations are supposed to follow that lead.

The fact that non-Jews misunderstand shechitah and halal slaughter, or judge it barbaric, is just another form of intolerance and prejudice. The fact that this intolerance gets political headway, but real animal rights and health concerns don't because factory farming has deep pockets and the Jewish community doesn't is precisely what makes this so unacceptable.

Well norway is not a member of the EU.

So if someone misunderstands something its intolerance and prejudice? Does this only work for us or is that a general rule? Because i hate special rules for some people as it always leads directly to resentment.

Yeah lobbies are bad. Such is life. Just think how all the green activists feel.

That's to enter the country.

That is not this issue.

Eating non kosher food is prohibited for orthodox jews in judaism. To eat kosher meat it has to be slaughtered in a certain way. Norway has made that way illegal.

Norway has also only allowed the importation of meat in small quantity.

Care to share the source of your information? The official norwegian regulations would be nice, not some blog or article.

It's one thing to not be an orthodox jew. Most jews aren't.

It's a completely another matter to promote laws that keep jews from practicing their religion, such as circumcision and koshering meat.

Frankly, jews have enough enemies, who wish to keep jews from practicing their religion.

To hear such behavior from someone who claims to be a jew is appalling.

Yeah where exactly did i promote to ban religious circumcision or slaughtering animals in our ways?

What do you think happens to an animal once it's shot by a bullet or by an arrow?

It dies with much more pain than the 1 or 2 seconds it takes incapacitate a cow with a knife slicing it's throat.

Yeah uhm in most european countries hunting is allowed to keep the numbers of wild animals in check.

The only other solution would be to kill all wild animals or let them roam free. Both options are pretty impossible.


Also hunting by arrow is probably forbidden in pretty much all european countries.




Ah and the Article of Dershowitz again. Really all i read is "cry cry they didnt let me talk, all those antisemites". Which is then followed by a load of assumptions.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So all things considered if find this all extremely amusing.

Really?

Preliminary findings already show that three-quarters of respondents feel that antisemitism has got worse in the past five years, particularly as concerns antisemitic comments and hate speech online. Other issues included in the survey concern antisemitic violence experienced by respondents, their families or friends; avoidance of wearing or displaying Jewish symbols in public; and the impact of events in the Middle East on the safety of Jews living in Europe. Exposure to stereotypes such as Jewish responsibility for the economic crisis or that Jews are not integrated into the societies of the countries in which they live is also addressed in the survey.

The results, together with FRA research into the situation of other vulnerable groups (such as LGBT), indicate the EU still faces serious challenges in the form of ongoing racism, discrimination and antisemitism. For this reason, this year’s FRA Fundamental Rights Conference will focus on combating hate crime across the EU. The findings of the Jewish people’s experiences and perceptions survey will be discussed at the conference by over 300 decision-makers and experts from throughout the EU.

This survey is the first to collect the experiences and perceptions of Jews on fundamental rights issues such as antisemitic discrimination and hate crime across the EU. The report covers the survey results from eight Member States in which 90% of the estimated Jewish population in the EU live. It will be complemented by FRA's annual antisemitism overview, which brings together statistical data on antisemitic incidents collected by governmental and non-governmental sources. [source]

I do not. Also not amusing is responding to a perceived rise in antisemitism with a shrug and a suggestion that perhaps it is the Jew who is at fault.

 

[Akivah]

Do you realise what kind of a huge and powerful lobby is behind factory farming? You'd need a really powerful green party to accomplish that. Germany has the most powerful one and even here this is just a dream.

Ah, so the fact that Jews are a minority in Norway is the proper reason to ban their practices. If they were large and had a powerful lobby, then kosher butchering should be allowed to continue.

 

[CMike]

Well norway is not a member of the EU.

So if someone misunderstands something its intolerance and prejudice? Does this only work for us or is that a general rule? Because i hate special rules for some people as it always leads directly to resentment.

Yeah lobbies are bad. Such is life. Just think how all the green activists feel.

What special rules? The only rule this effects is jews. No other group is effected other than this group.

The law makes it illegal for jews to practice their religion.

If they make a law that makes it illegal to put a mezzuzah on your door, that law would only effect jews as well. It's the same thing.

The law should be retracted because it's an anti-semitic law, and it keep jews from practicing their religion.

Care to share the source of your information? The official norwegian regulations would be nice, not some blog or article.

Not really if you want to find the actual law, go ahead and do so. I'm not your research department.

What's the difference anyway, you are still for Norwary's anti-semitic law.

Yeah where exactly did i promote to ban religious circumcision or slaughtering animals in our ways?

In this thread. You just stated above how you wouldn't want jews exempted from the anti semitic law. Have you forgotten, already?

Yeah uhm in most european countries hunting is allowed to keep the numbers of wild animals in check.

The only other solution would be to kill all wild animals or let them roam free. Both options are pretty impossible.

Nice excuses. I thought it was a big concern how animals die?

Therefore, hunting leads to a very painful death for an animal. A lot more painful than one knife swipe at the throat of a cow.

Also, beautiful animals are killed in hunting like deer.

Ah and the Article of Dershowitz again. Really all i read is "cry cry they didnt let me talk, all those antisemites". Which is then followed by a load of assumptions.

Considering you claim to be jewish your support for anti semitic behavior is appalling.

 

[Caladan]

Ah, so the fact that Jews are a minority in Norway is the proper reason to ban their practices. If they were large and had a powerful lobby, then kosher butchering should be allowed to continue.

If I may, and Flankerl may correct me if I'm misrepresenting the point here. I don't see that Flankerl is essentially justifying double standards against Jews, but instead trying to confront the issue with a more structured logic and less polemics. In fact what I believe she is saying (as I have also said in this thread and other threads before) is that while there is a double standard when Jewish slaughter practices are targeted, while far graver industrial and even recreational long standing European traditions still flourish we cannot just cry wolf at the gates without analyzing the situation and the larger social landscape. Nations like Norway, are secularism aspiring cultures. I believe the average Norwegian might even have a knee jerk reaction towards religious practices, more so when we are dealing with body modification, ritual butchery, and other realities which might not be bad in and of themselves but certainly conjure undesirable sentiments from the society.

From my part, while I certainly object to banning circumcision, I'm on the fence when it comes to Kosher killing. I see the double standards. If the average Norwegian is truly concerned with animal rights, then they should set an example and set a clear set of priorities and make it public. However, Kosher slaughter has been promoted as some kind of a humane form of killing an animal before its consumption. Even in Israel, many Jews come to challenge that fact, and see it as a liability. The entire Kosher industry in the Jewish state itself, has many challengers. Many of the challenges are legitimate. Not everything which is at odds with Jewish tradition is necessarily 100% intolerant. There are even Jews, Jews who are very cultural conscious that believe that in order to enhance their culture they need to reexamine the ways we have been doing some things and adapt it to our current norms, sensibilities, and even moral standards.

 

[Flankerl]

Really?

​

I do not. Also not amusing is responding to a perceived rise in antisemitism with a shrug and a suggestion that perhaps it is the Jew who is at fault.

So? I live here. I know of what kind of people most of the jews i know are afraid of.
Hint: Its not the neo nazi mob.

I dont even know when i last saw a group of neo nazis and i live near Dortmund which is basically the capital of the neo nazis in this federal state.

They are afraid of the people which their jewish organisations(like for example the central comittee for jews in germany, which is orthodox before the halakha police says something) wants inside the country. And this is where it gets funny.
"Our" organisations are in favour of getting people who hate us into all the european countries, go full multiculturalism on those countries and then wonder when they cant wear a yamulke outside the home anymore.

Iam sorry but this is simply funny.


And now dont say that it doesnt reflect on the majority of those people. When i was younger i had a lot of friends who hail from a certain cultural and religious background. And basically overnight this all fell apart. All showed the basic prejudices you find in certain areas around certain people.

One of my cousins lives in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. What a nice and welcoming country. Yeah right...
The people who marched by their synagogue and screamed "Hamas Hamas Jooden an het gas" werent some bearded freedom fighters which had undergone training in the middle east. No those were simple and average members of their community.
The slogans change with each language but its always the same when you look at the people. They are never extremists. You see people with their families.


There is a reason why its not like that in the US: That frickin huge ocean.
Europe gets the poor uneducated people.
If you are poor and uneducated you wont even see the shores of the USA.

So perhaps its all fun and happy over the pond and you have fun large meals together but this doesnt reflect the realities here in most european countries.

If I may, and Flankerl may correct me if I'm misrepresenting the point here. I don't see that Flankerl is essentially justifying double standards against Jews, but instead trying to confront the issue with a more structured logic and less polemics. In fact what I believe she is saying (as I have also said in this thread and other threads before) is that while there is a double standard when Jewish slaughter practices are targeted, while far graver industrial and even recreational long standing European traditions still flourish we cannot just cry wolf at the gates without analyzing the situation and the larger social landscape. Nations like Norway, are secularism aspiring cultures. I believe the average Norwegian might even have a knee jerk reaction towards religious practices, more so when we are dealing with body modification, ritual butchery, and other realities which might not be bad in and of themselves but certainly conjure undesirable sentiments from the society.

Thank
you
.

 

[Flankerl]

Oh and Jay from the article you posted.

"On 8 November, on the eve of the anniversary of the anti-Jewish pogroms that took place 75 years ago, FRA will present the full findings of its survey of Jewish people’s experiences and perceptions of hate crime, discrimination and antisemitism in the EU. "

This is not how you gain support. Why that date? Its always like that. They always publish something rather important on such a date and then wonder when most people are like "oh not again".

You only raise apathy for such a topic by doing that.