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Survey Finds General Rejection Of Religion

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
yes this is not proof to you but to me this is proof. the thing is that it is hard to find a survey that shows the questions asked people. it is hard to find a survey that shows if the person commiting the crime believe in God. Do Gang members believe in God. Are gang members praticing what God has taught to do? here i have a website that you could look at would this be considered to be proof? Article says that canada has a 50% higher crime rate that America. Canad is less religous than America according to this other site.
Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.
The public commitment to religion in countries worldwide

the fact that crime is higher in american states that have i higher religious practice is not poof to me. What cities are these crimes being commited? Are most of the religious people in rural areas or more densely populated cities? and island called malta is 95-98% christian and has a lower crime rate than Japan. Does Japan keep good records of crimes. is it because of there laws that crime is so low. hey maybe we should execute people that will have a life sentence in jail the very next day. maybe hollywood should stop glorifying criminal activity. Does japan have a hollywood? do people in japan buy video games like grand theft auto. Are people there even allowed to play video games?


Your source seems to be in error. Canada's murder rate (you remember you decided you wanted to look at murder) is 44th in the world. U.S. is 24th. That is, our murder rate is dramatically higher than Canada's. source As for violent crime in general, U.S. is #1 in the world, and Canada #8.

Possibly your source is a biased, political one? I think it's better to rely on more neutral sources.

(It should be noted that these statistics may say more about crime reporting than the actual level of crimes.)
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
As for the Malta data, it's not that it doesn't matter, it does. But it's just one data point. To do proper research, you don't cherry pick the data points that support your view. If we were to do that, I would pull out Japan and New Zealand and Iceland and decimate you. That's cheating. What you try to do is to gather as much data from as many different sources as you can, then try to control for as many elements as you can, to tease out what, if any, influence religion has.

One thing is clear from the data. It is NOT the case that more religious countries, states or cities have less crime than less religious. Do you agree?
 

ftv1975

Active Member
That's COMPLETELY WRONG!!! Where did you hear such nonsense? Whoever told you that is either lying or knows nothing of the scientific method.
it could be that i interpreted what was said to me in the wrong way. scientific theory to me was just an educated guess at first than latter i was corrected. with somehting like what i wrote earlier.

Here: I'll explain to you the method, since it's clear you don't know it:

Question
Observe
Hypothesize
Experiment
Conclude

To Question means to ask a question. Any question will do.
To Observe means to analyze the facts objectively and without presupposition. (In other words, do not think about the Bible or other related scripture while observing.)
To Hypothesize means to make an educated guess based on the objective facts.
To Experiment means to actually test your hypothesis against the facts.
To Conclude means to draw the connection between the facts, your hypothesis, and your experiment, to determine if your conclusion matches your hypothesis and answers your question satisfactorily.
how are facts brought to the observers attention? is fact truth according to how the observer sees it? i understand no bible involved. But science does try to explian the unknown like how this planet was formed with the info they currently have. Hypothesize can become faulty can't it if experiment doesn't prove hypothesis then hypothesis has to change, or experiment has to change to prove the hypothesis. if the answer is satifactory to the scientist does that then make it teachable fact. even though that there may be some fact that may come up in the future to prove the previous hypothesis wrong. thank you for explaining things to me.

i like talking to you. you seem to have a lot of patience with me.
 

ftv1975

Active Member
Your source seems to be in error. Canada's murder rate (you remember you decided you wanted to look at murder) is 44th in the world. U.S. is 24th. That is, our murder rate is dramatically higher than Canada's. source As for violent crime in general, U.S. is #1 in the world, and Canada #8.

Possibly your source is a biased, political one? I think it's better to rely on more neutral sources.

(It should be noted that these statistics may say more about crime reporting than the actual level of crimes.)

where do i find a neutral source that doesn't have a political point of view or religious point of view? How will i know if the source is reliable
 

ftv1975

Active Member
There's no such thing as subjective proof.
how is scripture subjective if someone believes it to be the truth? i know the definition of subjective maybe i don't understand the concept of the word.



Well, that first one is a news article, and I'm not familiar with that reporting company, so I don't know about its credibility. As for that second website, we have to remember that many individuals define religion differently, and doesn't say the percentage of religious practice in the country; just the percentage of people for whom religion is important. There is a difference.
The Association of Religion Data Archives | National Profiles
is this site credible? or is it the same one.

Got anything else?
nop i spent four hours finding just the canada statistics. i guess i am not a good researcher.

Dude... Japan is THE video-gaming country. Greats like Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Metroid, Metal Gear Solid, Megaman, Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. originated there. It's the place that gave the world console RPGs; American RPGs pale in comparison to the Epics found there, some of which have plots that I believe are on par with the great Epics of history. It's also a place where porno is listed alongside other DVDs. (I've seen it.) And yet, Tokyo, I've heard, is one of the safest places to live.
i don't keep up with this sort of stuff. do they play video games in japan or just produce them. not to say i havn't played video games just never took the time to know the games history.

And Japan also has a far better film industry than America; have you seen any Japanese films? If not, go watch The Ring, and then go watch Ringu. Ringu is the Japanese original; The Ring is the American remake. Compare the two, and you'll have an idea as to the state of American cinema versus Japanese cinema.
i had no idea that japan had a film industry.

And do not make the mistake of thinking that violent video games produce violence. I play violent video games all the time, but I'm a pacifist; I consider it a sin to swat a fly.
have you ever watched that gangs series on the history channel. one gang member was interview and glorified his actions as a video game. you are going to ask me which series i won't be able to tell you. i will wath the series over again and can tell you then. i had a friend buzz was his name that gathered all sorts of ideas from video games. you may not have the personality type to be influence by such things. Your personality type may not have your senses dull by seeing so much killing. But i would argue that there are personality types that would be influeced and senses dulled by such video games and movies. i knew a guy who wanted to be a serial killer after watching the movie seven.

However, you are thinking correctly that religion cannot be the cause of the violence in America alone, as there are several other factors, and it is good that you are exploring other alternatives. But don't forget to check them.
Gods true religion cannot cause violence... to me it is impossible. but wait i am now thinking of the talaban and misguided muslims ok never mind.
 

ftv1975

Active Member
Your source seems to be in error. Canada's murder rate (you remember you decided you wanted to look at murder) is 44th in the world. U.S. is 24th. That is, our murder rate is dramatically higher than Canada's. source As for violent crime in general, U.S. is #1 in the world, and Canada #8.

Possibly your source is a biased, political one? I think it's better to rely on more neutral sources.

(It should be noted that these statistics may say more about crime reporting than the actual level of crimes.)
no you are right murder not crime rate so far i have seen that united states to be the highest. poland seems to have the lowest murder rate. but do these other countries count abortions as murder.
 

ftv1975

Active Member
As for the Malta data, it's not that it doesn't matter, it does. But it's just one data point. To do proper research, you don't cherry pick the data points that support your view. If we were to do that, I would pull out Japan and New Zealand and Iceland and decimate you. That's cheating. What you try to do is to gather as much data from as many different sources as you can, then try to control for as many elements as you can, to tease out what, if any, influence religion has.

One thing is clear from the data. It is NOT the case that more religious countries, states or cities have less crime than less religious. Do you agree?
i haven't come to that conclusion yet. The Association of Religion Data Archives | National Profiles
would you consider this site to be acurate
i wish you would show me the info you have on New Zealand, Iceland and Japan in comparison to Malta. i am having the most difficult time.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
no you are right murder not crime rate so far i have seen that united states to be the highest. poland seems to have the lowest murder rate. but do these other countries count abortions as murder.
Probably not, but how do you think that would affect the figures if they did? This site - www.nationmaster.com - has the U.S. ranked 6th for most abortions by captita. Canada is 14th.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
where do i find a neutral source that doesn't have a political point of view or religious point of view? How will i know if the source is reliable

Just for Canada and the US...

Canadian crime statistcs are compiled by Statistics Canada, a government agency: Statistics Canada: Canada's national statistical agency

In the US, I believe it's the US Dept. of Justice that compiles these statistics.

Since these are the sources that everybody uses for claims about crime (e.g. crime vs. gun ownership, income, or religion), if these sources are biased, then everyone's crime stats are biased.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
i haven't come to that conclusion yet. The Association of Religion Data Archives | National Profiles
would you consider this site to be acurate
i wish you would show me the info you have on New Zealand, Iceland and Japan in comparison to Malta. i am having the most difficult time.

I don't think I'd consider that site to be accurate. I had a look at their entry on Canada; while it was generally okay, it did have some factual errors. And I think the way they generate their statistics for things like "religious persecution" is a bit misleading.
 
where do i find a neutral source that doesn't have a political point of view or religious point of view? How will i know if the source is reliable

Depends what you have access to. For me, I have immense access to research journals via numerous scientific databases so I can do my research papers, lab write-ups, etc... . You can also but I think you'll have to pay for the access, not sure how much though as I don't know how much is needed for me.

What you ideally want is called epidemiology, which is a branch of science whereby the data is collected through various methods. The data however isn't analyzed, and so it's a science of how to collect and the acts of collecting. For example, NIMH (National Institute of Mental Health) has enormous amounts of data. For North America I'd imagine it'd be Statistics Canada, however, the research journals provide detailed analysis of the figures but you should learn some statistics first as they don't explain their methods usually, they just list them.

how is scripture subjective if someone believes it to be the truth? i know the definition of subjective maybe i don't understand the concept of the word.

You pretty much answered yourself: the belief of it being true or false is subjective as it relies only on your opinion.

nop i spent four hours finding just the canada statistics. i guess i am not a good researcher.

No problem, it can be sometimes difficult to find the data.

i don't keep up with this sort of stuff. do they play video games in japan or just produce them. not to say i havn't played video games just never took the time to know the games history.

Japan is one of the biggest manufacturers of video games, although the types of games that are permitted from Japan to North America vary. For example, they developed essentially a rape simulation video game, which North America bashed them for heavily. I'm not much of a gamer myself so I just know some basic ideas.

i had no idea that japan had a film industry.

Yep, very big one.

have you ever watched that gangs series on the history channel.

No, however, I have studied them both in sociology as a first-year course and forensic psychology as a third-year course.

one gang member was interview and glorified his actions as a video game. you are going to ask me which series i won't be able to tell you. i will wath the series over again and can tell you then. i had a friend buzz was his name that gathered all sorts of ideas from video games. you may not have the personality type to be influence by such things. Your personality type may not have your senses dull by seeing so much killing. But i would argue that there are personality types that would be influeced and senses dulled by such video games and movies. i knew a guy who wanted to be a serial killer after watching the movie seven.

Violent video games have come under immense scrutiny, such as a case where two kids (not sure on their ages but under 15 I think) kidnapped and killed a much younger child, and then stuffed large batteries into the kid and their claim was to re-enact Chucky. For forensic psychology, this influence is really hard to determine because there are numerous factors along with the video games. Research does suggest it can desensitize to a degree and it becomes what's called an estimator variable, which is a variable that is known to occur (desensitization) but the amount or affect it has is unknown and must be estimated. There are things such as the Gudjosson Suggestibility Scale (may have misspelled it) used in forensic psychology to assess how suggestible one is to something, and it shows that suggestibility has numerous variables (not necessarily estimator though) other than one's personality.

When it comes to violence, there's a branch of forensic psychology for risk assessment. It sounds easy but trust me, it isn't and it's not the same as criminal profiling. It's an area that has immense research because it's used by parole officers, police, etc... . I can write a lot on it here but I'll write very, very little because it's complex and because it may deserve its own thread or PM. But to summarize, various "scales" have to be used and each varies, such as the PCL-SV (screening for psychopathy, which I can explain at a later time as it has a ridiculous amount of misconceptions), Static-99, VRAG, ICT, etc... .

no you are right murder not crime rate so far i have seen that united states to be the highest. poland seems to have the lowest murder rate. but do these other countries count abortions as murder.

I'm not familiar with international law so I cannot say for certain but since I haven't looked at the provided sources, I'm not sure how they define murder, such as are there separate questions each of manslaughter, first-degree murder, second-degree murder and infanicide? I ask this because as obvious as it seems, many epidemiological studies on violence, specifically domestic violence aren't great at separating the questions so it ends up having one question to cover several actions. So I'm not sure if this occurs in the provided sources or not.

ftv1975 said:
where do i find a neutral source that doesn't have a political point of view or religious point of view? How will i know if the source is reliable

I'll answer your second question first because it's important to address that one before the first question. When it comes to science, do you know what accuracy, reliability and validity are? I don't intend to be rude, it's just that common-sense ideas don't always agree with what is defined in science.
 
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enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
Keep in mind, a lot of people today are fed up with everyone probing their business so they will do anything to be more private. They got tired of the government asking how many toilets are in their homes when they took the census thing. This would include fibbing on a survey to keep from disclosing their real religion. I'd gladly be counted as a statistic of leaving Christianity though.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Hey, ftv: here's a summary of crime statistics for Canada. It's from 2008, so it's pretty current:

Canada at a Glance 2008 - Justice

Keep in mind, a lot of people today are fed up with everyone probing their business so they will do anything to be more private. They got tired of the government asking how many toilets are in their homes when they took the census thing. This would include fibbing on a survey to keep from disclosing their real religion. I'd gladly be counted as a statistic of leaving Christianity though.
I don't think that this effect is really that large.

I'm not involved in the census process, but I am involved in interpreting and analysing the data from another big survey. They haven't run into major issues with people actually lying, even though the questions get pretty detailed and personal: basically, they ask you what trips everyone in your household made on one specific weekday, plus demographic info like car ownership, household members who are employed (and where they work), household members who are students, etc., etc.

That's not to say that there aren't issues... one of the big problems they're starting to run into is that many households no longer have an associated phone number; everyone in the house just has cell phones, no land line, which is creating major headaches for all sorts of government surveys... though since IIRC the census is all done by mail and door-to-door canvassing, maybe it's not a problem for them.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
it could be that i interpreted what was said to me in the wrong way. scientific theory to me was just an educated guess at first than latter i was corrected. with somehting like what i wrote earlier.

Good.

how are facts brought to the observers attention?

By seeking it out through research, and various other practices depending on the type of science we're talking about.

is fact truth according to how the observer sees it?

Facts are objective; they cannot be reasonably disputed.

i understand no bible involved.

Unless what you're studying directly relates to the Biblical canon in some way, it should not be involved.

But science does try to explian the unknown like how this planet was formed with the info they currently have. Hypothesize can become faulty can't it if experiment doesn't prove hypothesis then hypothesis has to change, or experiment has to change to prove the hypothesis.

If the results of the experiment do not match the hypothesis, the honest scientist will make his conclusions, thus asking again a question.

if the answer is satifactory to the scientist does that then make it teachable fact.

Very true. Nobody said that. It is hardly a fact that the earth is exactly 4.6 billion years old; that's still a theory. However, it's the most reasonable theory we have right now based on what we have.

even though that there may be some fact that may come up in the future to prove the previous hypothesis wrong.

That's true, and scientific knowledge will accommodate accordingly should that happen.

thank you for explaining things to me.

No problem.

i like talking to you. you seem to have a lot of patience with me.

I do try to keep my cool in these things. Not always easy, believe me.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
how is scripture subjective if someone believes it to be the truth? i know the definition of subjective maybe i don't understand the concept of the word.

Subjective means it's different for everyone.

Facts are objective; Truth is subjective.

is this site credible? or is it the same one.

It's different, but I don't know if it's credible or not.

nop i spent four hours finding just the canada statistics. i guess i am not a good researcher.

Four hours? That's not too bad.

i don't keep up with this sort of stuff. do they play video games in japan or just produce them. not to say i havn't played video games just never took the time to know the games history.

Oh, yes, they play video games. There are several games, such as the Mother series, which actually are super-popular over there, but over hear, completely ignored to the point that we've only got one game in the series which is criminally underrated. Not to mention the game Hydlide, which is a very hated game in America, but in Japan is a cult classic.

i had no idea that japan had a film industry.

Why wouldn't they? I think every country has its own film industry.

have you ever watched that gangs series on the history channel. one gang member was interview and glorified his actions as a video game. you are going to ask me which series i won't be able to tell you. i will wath the series over again and can tell you then. i had a friend buzz was his name that gathered all sorts of ideas from video games. you may not have the personality type to be influence by such things. Your personality type may not have your senses dull by seeing so much killing. But i would argue that there are personality types that would be influeced and senses dulled by such video games and movies. i knew a guy who wanted to be a serial killer after watching the movie seven.

That is scary. I don't watch TV, though. There are some who can easily be affected by what they see on TV or play in video games, and they should not be ignored or left alone. After all, it's not simple playing of video games or watching violent films or shows that makes people violent; there are hundreds of other factors involved.

Gods true religion cannot cause violence... to me it is impossible. but wait i am now thinking of the talaban and misguided muslims ok never mind.

Well, the "True" religion can easily be warped by the immediate followers so that it's lost as soon as the "prophet" who delivered it dies.

I, personally, don't believe in any "true" religion. They're all paths up the same mountain.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Japan is one of the biggest manufacturers of video games, although the types of games that are permitted from Japan to North America vary. For example, they developed essentially a rape simulation video game, which North America bashed them for heavily. I'm not much of a gamer myself so I just know some basic ideas.

YEESH! I was always afraid someone would try to make a game like that.

Then again, I'm not surprised it was a Japanese company, considering how popular dating sims and porno games are over there...
 
YEESH! I was always afraid someone would try to make a game like that.

Then again, I'm not surprised it was a Japanese company, considering how popular dating sims and porno games are over there...

Agreed. I'm sure there are other highly-detailed video games along the nature of rape along with dating sims and porno games.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Agreed. I'm sure there are other highly-detailed video games along the nature of rape along with dating sims and porno games.

I don't have a problem with dating sims and porno games (other than the fact that the vast majority of them are either BORING or extremely buggy), but games that simulate rape are just disgraceful.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Great material for a quote-mine there. Did you know that Riverwolf is dating a Sim?

You know, my mind works so slowly that it took a very long time for me to get that.

And next time you call Moonwater a Sim, I will :slap:. (;))
 
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