Survey Finds General Rejection Of Religion

[ftv1975]

can you send me a pm explaining what i seem to be missing?

If you reject the idea of the transcendent, how can you "recognize a transcendent, sacred order and elaborate a technique to deal with the inexplicable or unpredictable elements of human experience in the world or beyond it"?

then science is not how atheist have come to form their opinion. then how have atheist come to form their opinion? is it trial and error?

it doesn't really matter because this post isn't about these questions. i put this post in the wrong direction.

 

[Storm]

ftv, I just fruballed one of your posts, but I'd like to make the message public:
I think I may have misjudged you. It takes a great deal of maturity to back down and listen to the other side. Kudos. ~ Storm

Thank you for being willing to consider what we have to say, and I'm sorry I've been so hard on you. TBH, I assumed you were another fundy troll. Thank you for showing me to be wrong.

:candle:

 

[ftv1975]

i stand by my statement that the lack of true religion will cause distruction. If you want proof from me i can't provide. due to the type of proof that i have.

 

[Storm]

i stand by my statement that the lack of true religion will cause distruction. If you want proof from me i can't provide. due to the type of proof that i have.

Ah, but then the question becomes, what is "true religion?"

Is it doing the best you can with what you have, or being lucky in your theological indoctrination/ guess?

 

[Autodidact]

i stand by my statement that the lack of true religion will cause distruction. If you want proof from me i can't provide. due to the type of proof that i have.

ftv: You're ignoring the facts. All those facts I posted indicating the opposite. I realize that you have faith, but hey, we know you're Mormon. You have faith in all sorts of odd things. Meanwhile, back at reality, the facts directly oppose your statement.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

then science is not how atheist have come to form their opinion. then how have atheist come to form their opinion? is it trial and error?

Depends on the atheist. You're getting kinda close to the definition of skepticism (though still a fair ways off, IMO), but not all atheists are skeptics.

And not all skeptics are atheists.

 

[ftv1975]

ftv: You're ignoring the facts. All those facts I posted indicating the opposite. I realize that you have faith, but hey, we know you're Mormon. You have faith in all sorts of odd things. Meanwhile, back at reality, the facts directly oppose your statement.

hey! there you are? yes the facts. Fact one that you gave me religious states have a higher crime rate. Due to what? Fact two i think you wrote that have more religious people that non religious. right ?

 

[Autodidact]

hey! there you are? yes the facts. Fact one that you gave me religious states have a higher crime rate. Due to what? Fact two i think you wrote that have more religious people that non religious. right ?

But ftv, you are predicting that less religious states (and countries) have a higher crime rate. They don't. You're wrong. It's the other way around. I'm not the one saying that if society becomes more religious it will cause an increase in crime; you're the one saying the opposite. That means it's your job to come up with some support. Support isn't "I really believe it." Or even "I know it." It's facts that support your position. Got any?

 

[ftv1975]

But ftv, you are predicting that less religious states (and countries) have a higher crime rate. They don't. You're wrong. It's the other way around. I'm not the one saying that if society becomes more religious it will cause an increase in crime; you're the one saying the opposite. That means it's your job to come up with some support. Support isn't "I really believe it." Or even "I know it." It's facts that support your position. Got any?

yes your right it is my job to bring facts. i usually lean towards the gospel to provide the information. as of right now i have very little info that is not gospel orientated.

but here is what i have so far. this is a comparison of Malta, Japan, and the U.S.A


INCIDENCE OF CRIME
The crime rate in Malta is low, compared to more developed countries. An analysis was done using INTERPOL data for Malta. For purpose of comparison, data were drawn for the seven offenses used to compute the United States FBI's index of crime. Index offenses include murder, forcible rape, robbery, aggravated assault, burglary, larceny, and motor vehicle theft. The combined total of these offenses constitutes the Index used for trend calculation purposes. Malta will be compared with Japan (country with a low crime rate) and USA (country with a high crime rate). According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2000 was 1.95 per 100,000 population for Malta, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.51 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2000 was 3.17 for Malta, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 32.05 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2000 was 35.56 for Malta, 4.08 for Japan, and 144.92 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2000 was 18.27 for Malta, 23.78 for Japan, and 323.62 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2000 was 1246.46 for Malta, 233.60 for Japan, and 728.42 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2000 was 1246.46 for Malta, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2475.27 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2000 was 255.96 for Malta, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 414.17 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 24.60 for Malta, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

i picked Malta Based on this sites info. i will look up turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_European_Union

 

[Riverwolf]

there was a question asked by a lawyer in the book of Matthew 22:36-40

the lawyer asked Which is the great commandment in the law. which he was refering to the old testiment laws. Jesus replied

verse 37- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

verse 38- this is the first and great commandment.

verse 39- And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Not at all what I was asking. I wasn't asking for the overall theme of the Torah and Prophets; I was asking if something was okay to do if God didn't forbid it.

 

[Riverwolf]

how does this definition exclude atheism. isn't science the backbone of atheism. doesn't science try to explain the unexplainable.

No; science is an attempt to learn about the universe, and atheism is not a prerequisite for trusting what scientists have found. I am a theist, but I also accept what scientists have found. I don't put all my faith into them; after all, they don't know everything. The beauty of it is, I can theoretically recheck what they've said to confirm whether or not it's true. That's how knowledge is gained.

Do not confuse the scientific method with religion; comparing the two is like comparing apples and beef: not even the same food group.

Oh, and you can have science within religion.

 

[Riverwolf]

i stand by my statement that the lack of true religion will cause distruction. If you want proof from me i can't provide. due to the type of proof that i have.

I'm afraid that means that it's not proof. Proof cannot be reasonably doubted or rejected.

I will sooner trust surveys and tables than old books on the nature of this physical world, because the books have no scientific merit. If it turns out that there are more problems in places where there is a high degree of religion than in places where there is a lower degree, then I say that there is a problem with how the religion is presented and practiced, if it's practiced at all.

Oh, and do understand that I do the same with my own religious texts; I've come across a verse in the Bhagavad-Gita that is scientifically incorrect.

 

[Riverwolf]

And not all skeptics are atheists.

Exactly. Though I'm a theist, I purposely retain my skepticism until God can completely take away my doubt Himself.

 

[tumbleweed41]

how does this definition exclude atheism. isn't science the backbone of atheism. doesn't science try to explain the unexplainable.

As as been said, science explains the natural process.
Personally, I am a Deist, not an atheist. It would be closer to the truth to say science is the backbone of Deism, but not an absolute truth.
An atheist may be more prone to scientific interest, due to his/her lack of belief in the the supernatural, but it does not have to be so.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Maybe this was mentioned, but 300+ posts is alot to lookover. However, previous surveys have found that while the number of religious (I think it was aimed at Evangelicals) has remained approximately the same, the overall percentage of them within the population has went down.

 

[ftv1975]

Not at all what I was asking. I wasn't asking for the overall theme of the Torah and Prophets; I was asking if something was okay to do if God didn't forbid it.

it is hard for me to answer this question. without knowing what you think God doesn't forbid. Do you have the freedom to chose right from wrong? Absolutly

what do you mean by is it okay? Do you mean is it acceptable to God?
i gave you those verses so that you know that all commandments and things that are forbidden are summed up in two Great commandments. Can you do things that are forbidden and not know about it? of course. on earth it is okay i guess you could say to do anything God deams to be unholy, but it won't help you on judgement day. This will be a day where you will have a perfect knowledge of every single thing that you have done in your entire life. you will have a perfect knowledge of right and wrong. this is my belief.

 

[ftv1975]

I'm afraid that means that it's not proof. Proof cannot be reasonably doubted or rejected.

I will sooner trust surveys and tables than old books on the nature of this physical world, because the books have no scientific merit. If it turns out that there are more problems in places where there is a high degree of religion than in places where there is a lower degree, then I say that there is a problem with how the religion is presented and practiced, if it's practiced at all.

Oh, and do understand that I do the same with my own religious texts; I've come across a verse in the Bhagavad-Gita that is scientifically incorrect.

yes this is not proof to you but to me this is proof. the thing is that it is hard to find a survey that shows the questions asked people. it is hard to find a survey that shows if the person commiting the crime believe in God. Do Gang members believe in God. Are gang members praticing what God has taught to do? here i have a website that you could look at would this be considered to be proof? Article says that canada has a 50% higher crime rate that America. Canad is less religous than America according to this other site.
Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.
The public commitment to religion in countries worldwide

the fact that crime is higher in american states that have i higher religious practice is not poof to me. What cities are these crimes being commited? Are most of the religious people in rural areas or more densely populated cities? and island called malta is 95-98% christian and has a lower crime rate than Japan. Does Japan keep good records of crimes. is it because of there laws that crime is so low. hey maybe we should execute people that will have a life sentence in jail the very next day. maybe hollywood should stop glorifying criminal activity. Does japan have a hollywood? do people in japan buy video games like grand theft auto. Are people there even allowed to play video games?

 

[ftv1975]

As as been said, science explains the natural process.
Personally, I am a Deist, not an atheist. It would be closer to the truth to say science is the backbone of Deism, but not an absolute truth.
An atheist may be more prone to scientific interest, due to his/her lack of belief in the the supernatural, but it does not have to be so.

science attempts to explain through common agreement among other scientists.

 

[Riverwolf]

yes this is not proof to you but to me this is proof.

There's no such thing as subjective proof.

the thing is that it is hard to find a survey that shows the questions asked people. it is hard to find a survey that shows if the person commiting the crime believe in God. Do Gang members believe in God. Are gang members praticing what God has taught to do? here i have a website that you could look at would this be considered to be proof? Article says that canada has a 50% higher crime rate that America. Canad is less religous than America according to this other site.
Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.
The public commitment to religion in countries worldwide

Well, that first one is a news article, and I'm not familiar with that reporting company, so I don't know about its credibility. As for that second website, we have to remember that many individuals define religion differently, and doesn't say the percentage of religious practice in the country; just the percentage of people for whom religion is important. There is a difference.

Got anything else?

the fact that crime is higher in american states that have i higher religious practice is not poof to me. What cities are these crimes being commited? Are most of the religious people in rural areas or more densely populated cities? and island called malta is 95-98% christian and has a lower crime rate than Japan. Does Japan keep good records of crimes. is it because of there laws that crime is so low. hey maybe we should execute people that will have a life sentence in jail the very next day. maybe hollywood should stop glorifying criminal activity. Does japan have a hollywood? do people in japan buy video games like grand theft auto. Are people there even allowed to play video games?

Dude... Japan is THE video-gaming country. Greats like Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, Metroid, Metal Gear Solid, Megaman, Sonic the Hedgehog, etc. originated there. It's the place that gave the world console RPGs; American RPGs pale in comparison to the Epics found there, some of which have plots that I believe are on par with the great Epics of history. It's also a place where porno is listed alongside other DVDs. (I've seen it.) And yet, Tokyo, I've heard, is one of the safest places to live.

And Japan also has a far better film industry than America; have you seen any Japanese films? If not, go watch The Ring, and then go watch Ringu. Ringu is the Japanese original; The Ring is the American remake. Compare the two, and you'll have an idea as to the state of American cinema versus Japanese cinema.

And do not make the mistake of thinking that violent video games produce violence. I play violent video games all the time, but I'm a pacifist; I consider it a sin to swat a fly.

However, you are thinking correctly that religion cannot be the cause of the violence in America alone, as there are several other factors, and it is good that you are exploring other alternatives. But don't forget to check them.

 

[Riverwolf]

science attempts to explain through common agreement among other scientists.

That's COMPLETELY WRONG!!! Where did you hear such nonsense? Whoever told you that is either lying or knows nothing of the scientific method.

Here: I'll explain to you the method, since it's clear you don't know it:

Question
Observe
Hypothesize
Experiment
Conclude

To Question means to ask a question. Any question will do.
To Observe means to analyze the facts objectively and without presupposition. (In other words, do not think about the Bible or other related scripture while observing.)
To Hypothesize means to make an educated guess based on the objective facts.
To Experiment means to actually test your hypothesis against the facts.
To Conclude means to draw the connection between the facts, your hypothesis, and your experiment, to determine if your conclusion matches your hypothesis and answers your question satisfactorily.