rojse
RF Addict
Just to make this clear, your understanding is that if you believe in Christ, confess, and commit suicide, you will not go to hell, but if you do not believe in Christ, or do not confess, and commit suicide, you will?
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Suicide and damnation
- Thread starter rojse
- Start date
Just to make this clear, your understanding is that if you believe in Christ, confess, and commit suicide, you will not go to hell, but if you do not believe in Christ, or do not confess, and commit suicide, you will?
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Exactly.
So what did God lose?
Nothing as far as I can tell.
So what did God gain?
If he is all knowing and all powerful...
Nothing.
If one is Saved by the Blood, Christ will not condem that soul too hell. Look at the story of Samson. When the Father told him to kill the Phillestines in the their temple He didn't mean for Samson too kill himself. At that time the Power of The Lord was upon him, he could have easely jumped into the center of the temple and killed them by hand.
Assisted suicide is just that, suicide. The beliefe in the Cleansing of our sins by the Blood Of Jesus Christ is what Saves us, nothing else. Some denominations believe one can loose their salvation, nonsense, how can one change what Christ has placed in their heart & soul, no one can. Let's break it down to a another degree...I like a certain cerial, this so called cerial is all that I'll eat, none others. Now no one can change my mind about that, see what I'm trying to say here? Once you believe in The Lord Jesus Christ no one can take that from you, and that's where Salvation lies...period.
Kcnorwood
Well-Known Member
rojse
RF Addict
What about your perspective on this? Catholics aren't the only ones with a claim on being a moral compass for society.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Since I figure holding my breath till you answer the question will end up in my own suffocation...
Why does God have to sacrifice anything to show he loves us?
But to play along in your little game...
How about he sacrifice his secret identity and show everyone that he loves us without all the asinine BS?
Your answer leads into my answer. You see, God cannot lose anything since he is infinite in all aspects. Nonetheless, it doesn't follow that he cannot sacrifice anything. After all, if we looked at this as an equation, infinity minus any number is still infinity. He has still given up "any number", but that has not changed his own quality of being infinite. So, let's suppose it was logically possible for God to sacrifice the only thing that would leave him at less than he currently is -- his quality of being infinite. Does that sacrifice really help us more than harm us? I like my God infinite, thank you.
gnostic
The Lost One
Wouldn't martyr be considered suicide?
If you don't do anything to avoid death, even though you have the power to do so, then some of these martyrs may be considered as assisted-suicide. I believed that many of the martyr saints were vain, and deliberately sought position where they can be put to death. Their belief my be strong, but to deliberately seek martyrdom is suicide, plain and simple.
If you don't do anything to avoid death, even though you have the power to do so, then some of these martyrs may be considered as assisted-suicide. I believed that many of the martyr saints were vain, and deliberately sought position where they can be put to death. Their belief my be strong, but to deliberately seek martyrdom is suicide, plain and simple.
rojse
RF Addict
Such an abuse of the term infinity.
If God is "infinite in all aspects", as you claim, then he is both infinitely good, and infinitely evil, infinitely large, and infinitely small, infinitely fat and infinitely thin. You can see that these are contradictions that does not make any sense at all.
Nor does an infinite sum equal infinity.
For example, if you have the sum 2 + 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + ... which progesses infinitely, the end sum will equal four. There is a whole branch of mathematics that calculates an infinite sum, and works out a finite integer.
And for not being able to subtract any number from infinity, infinity minus itself equals zero.
Apart from that briefest of discussions on infinite mathematics, God does not have to sacrifice something, however much you have tried to abuse said idea, without sacrificing infinity. For example, if he made a public appearance, all he is sacrificing is his private image and several hours of his time. Considering that he is both omniprescent and omnipotent, that is not really a sacrifice at all, is it?
Captain Civic
version 2.0
I disagree. Perhaps the word "stubborn" should be substituted in there somewhere.
Scott C.
Just one guy
The Father sacrificed His Son and the Son sacrificed His life. I think you're correct that the Son did not lose or give up anything in the long run, since He was resurrected and continues to live today. The important thing to remember is that the Son suffered beyond comparison. He suffered to an infinite degree. It was more painful and difficult that we can imagine. He paid the price for the sins of all humanity. Now it's over and the Son of God no longer suffers.
Aasimar
Atheist
What makes you say he suffered to an infinite degree? Because some people who wrote about it later said he did? I'm sure being beaten and whipped and crucified hurt something awful, and in that pain Jesus was far from alone, but as far as some kind of imaginary suffering due too our sins (Like, you sleep with members of the own sex hurts me like acid on my face.) is just ludicrous. Especially since all of god's supposed suffering is completely needless. Omnipotence, can do anything, doesn't need to make all these silly games out of everything.
I guess it's kinda like me feeling sorry for you because you feel bad that I'm kicking cats in the street, so in order for you to forgive me, you pour gasoline on yourself and light yourself on fire to prove to me how sorry you feel for me.
Of course, that doesn't make sense, but it gets even more bizarre with the God scenario, seeing as how once you are burned to a crisp and dead you *poof* back up as if nothing happened and tell me it's okay now that I kicked that cat, as long as I remember that you set yourself on fire and love you for it.
Scott C.
Just one guy
You're making a lot of points here. Are you trying to understand what I believe on the atonement or just explain why you think it was not necessary?
As a Christian (LDS), I believe Jesus suffered far more than just the physical agony that any of us would suffer should we be abused the way Jesus was. Actually, as LDS, I believe this suffering also occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus prayed before the crucifiction. In this environment, there was no external physical force (such as crucifiction or beatings) to cause Him to suffer. The suffering in the Garden was all due to spriritual force that we can't fully understand.
Sure, you can ignore what you knew I meant by "infinite in all aspects" and make an irrelevant argument, I guess, but to what end? I guess I could have listed all of the qualities I was talking about, but I would probably leave some out and it would take quite a bit of time. Nonetheless, your "infinity math" is completely pointless here. Who said anything about an infinite sum??? Huh??? Infinity minus infinity equals zero??? So you are saying that God should destroy his existence to show his love for us? How logical is that? Alrighty then...
Aasimar
Atheist
I am trying to understand, but at the same time, I wonder where you get this belief that he suffered some spiritual pain that's infinitely worse, especially if we can't fathom it. Maybe it was nothing like pain, maybe it was just annoyance. Or discomfort. Or disgust. The thing I don't get is the "I don't understand what it was and I don't think we can, but it must have been really really bad" idea that seems to come forth here. It's just the concept of "We can't fully understand." but "We know it was bad." that gets me. This feeling like we don't know what it was, but it wasn't good and it was necessary, we can't define it, but we build an entire world-view around it.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
talk about running into left field...
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
It committed suicide and was damned forever.