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Stratigraphy, radiometric evidence, fossil evidence, and genetics.

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
If you want to tell us what time is like there, we would need you to do more than stick your head in a fishbowl with a watch on earth.

You are projecting again. You are the one that puts yourself in a fishbowl. You should be trying to learn how scientists know what they know.

Every time that you use that false "fishbowl" claim I will remind you that you put yourself in a fishbowl. And oddly enough you also claim that God is a liar by saying that the myths of the Bible are real events. The evidence against them is so strong that there is only one answer if they actually happened.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
False.origins sciences has none of that .. just beliefs.
dad, at best you do not know what is and what is not evidence and this would be bearing false witness against your neighbors through ignorance. If you actually knew what is and what is not evidence this would be an active lie on your part.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
How many teeth?

Again . . . Do you ask God how many teeth are in the donkey's mouth or count the teeth for yourself?

God does not lie, nor bear false witness to the physical evidence as to the history of the earth, our solar system nor our universe, people do indeed tall tales and stories and hand down myths and legends from generation to generation. It is time to give up the mythical and legendary history of ancient scripture.
 

dad

Undefeated
Again . . . Do you ask God how many teeth are in the donkey's mouth or count the teeth for yourself
Who cares? Point?
God does not lie, nor bear false witness to the physical evidence as to the history of the earth,
He told us how it happened science was duped into misreading things. Only your beliefs color it old for you.
our solar system nor our universe,
You have no authority to speak of the universe as you have never been out of the fishbowl!

people do indeed tall tales and stories and hand down myths and legends from generation to generation. It is time to give up the mythical and legendary history of ancient scripture.
Origins sciences are tall tales.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Who cares? Point?

Point is do you rely on objective verifiable evidence to reach your conclusions or do you rely on ancient mythology?

He told us how it happened science was duped into misreading things. Only your beliefs color it old for you.
You have no authority to speak of the universe as you have never been out of the fishbowl!

Origins sciences are tall tales.

I see you rely on ancient mythology to know the number of teeth in the mouth of the donkey instead of simply counting the teeth,
 
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tas8831

Well-Known Member
Point is do you rely on objective verifiable evidence to reach your conclusions or do you rely on ancient mythology?



I see you rely on ancient mythology to know the number of teeth in the mouth of the donkey instead of simply counting the teeth,
Well, see, counting was done differently in the past...
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
False.origins sciences has none of that .. just beliefs.
A science expert like yourself should be able to understand this , no problem.

OK. Here is my case, along with the evidence (hate to be the broken record):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can hereby ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION:

This evidence lays out the results of employing a tested methodology on the question of Primate evolution. The same general criteria/methods have been used on nearly all facets of the evolution of living things. Other than bland, predictable, and rather lame attempts to undermine the evidence by citing 'worst-case scenario experiments' and the like, no creationist has ever mounted a relelevant, much less scientific rebuttal. And, of course, no creationsit has ever offered real evidence in support of a biblical-style creation.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Except that no Hebrews or Israelites left any writing in the Bronze Age.

So it is more of Iron Age’s “God did it”.

But regardless if it was Bronze Age, Iron Age or Middle Ages, the “God did it” are nothing more than utter ignorance and primitive superstitions.

That some modern believers use this absurd superstition still that “God did it” only showed such believers are incapable of learning how nature works.

The Bronze Age .. About 3700 BC to about 500 BC
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
To poster weneverknow: You believe in a same nature in the past with no proof and use in to model what the past was like. End of story.
What is your evidence that states were different in the past?

All I have ever seen from you are repeated unsupported assertions and declarations of victory.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The Bronze Age .. About 3700 BC to about 500 BC

Chalcolithic or Eneolithic (Copper Age & Neolithic combined) c 4000 to c 3100 BCE

Bronze Age c 3100 to c 1050 BCE

Iron Age c 1050 to c 50 BCE​

These are dates, above, are focused for regions in Mesopotamia and Levant. In the Aegean (Greece and Asia Minor), the dates to these periods, started and ended slightly later.

While in central and western Europe, like among the Celts, the Bronze Age didn’t end until the Urnfield culture ended and started the Iron Age Hallstatt culture around mid-8th century BCE.

And while we know that Bronze Age ended and Iron Age started during the Zhou dynasty, no one can agree with the precise date of this transition. It also doesn’t help that Chinese metallurgy continued to use bronze tools and weapons even with iron being used, so there was some overlapping.
 
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dad

Undefeated
Point is do you rely on objective verifiable evidence to reach your conclusions or do you rely on ancient mythology?

Veritable evidence has no connection to origin science beliefs.


I see you rely on ancient mythology to know the number of teeth in the mouth of the donkey instead of simply counting the teeth,

? You brought up teeth numbers. Still can't achieve a point with that eh...stop chewing cud and get to it.
 

dad

Undefeated
A science expert like yourself should be able to understand this , no problem.

OK. Here is my case, along with the evidence (hate to be the broken record):

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



We can hereby ASSUME that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION:

This evidence lays out the results of employing a tested methodology on the question of Primate evolution. The same general criteria/methods have been used on nearly all facets of the evolution of living things. Other than bland, predictable, and rather lame attempts to undermine the evidence by citing 'worst-case scenario experiments' and the like, no creationist has ever mounted a relelevant, much less scientific rebuttal. And, of course, no creationsit has ever offered real evidence in support of a biblical-style creation.
Inbred strains of mice ?!! Nothing to do with origins. Gong!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Veritable evidence has no connection to origin science beliefs.

It has become abundantly clear in the history of your posts that your agenda is based on religious beliefs, because you have failed to present any objective evidence to support your assertions.

With science it is repeatedly objective verifiable evidence with predictable results and you have provided absolutely nothing, and yes absolutely nothing.
 

dad

Undefeated
What is your evidence that states were different in the past?

All I have ever seen from you are repeated unsupported assertions and declarations of victory.

If science had evidence for the nature it claims you could talk. In one hand you guys want to wave history away wholesale.. .and then you want your claimed state in the past to be waved in..no questions!
 
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