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stoning !!!!!!

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
He is saying that we are using the power of the state to enforce these laws and i don't see the problem in doing that. What is the problem if the state chose to do lashes or to send someone to prison instead?

The problem is using the state to enforce RELIGIOUS MYTHOLOGY. If you want to believe it and hand out lashes for something that it is a private matter - go for it.

But why should some citizen who does NOT share a love of your brand of cruelty OR your mythology be subjected to it?
 

.lava

Veteran Member
Frankly, if that is what you believe and are willing to practice it, even if voluntary - then the world really would be better off w/o you. And if you kill each other off in this religious madness I doubt there will be many to mourn your passing.:(

think whatever you wanna think cos you're on your own. does not matter for world if i die or not because world spins as long as God says so. mean while, you sink into your own hatred as you don't belong anywhere but your heart. thank you.






.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
i know that Prophets were special people and they did not commit big sins like adultery but according to Qur'an, everyone -even Prophets- were first in dalalat:

93:7 And He found you unaware and guided you?

if you check out original text, you'd find dalalat translated as 'unaware' and guided as 'Hidayat'...





.

i do agree with that verse, but it is actually talking about Muhammed (saws) prior to becoming a prophet (some of the verses and i think that is one of them)


1. By the Glorious Morning Light,
2. And by the Night when it is still,-
3. Thy Guardian-Lord hath not forsaken thee, nor is He displeased.
4. And verily the Hereafter will be better for thee than the present.
5. And soon will thy Guardian-Lord give thee (that wherewith) thou shalt be well-pleased.
6. Did He not find thee an orphan and give thee shelter (and care)?
7. And He found thee wandering, and He gave thee guidance.
8. And He found thee in need, and made thee independent.
9. Therefore, treat not the orphan with harshness,
10. Nor repulse the petitioner (unheard); 11. But the bounty of the Lord - rehearse and proclaim!

i also found the following article:

Q
Has Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, ever sinned in his life? Has any of the prophets?

A

Salam Ahmad,

Thank you very much for your question.

When talking about a human being, it is understood that he/she might do some mistakes or even sins. But when talking about the prophets beginning with Adam and ending with the seal of the prophets Muhammad, peace be upon them, we need to be cautious of the idea that they are the human beings who are to guide the people to whom they were send.

This matter of guidance needs some characteristics to be available in the prophet himself. First, he should be a human being, because if he was not so, he will not be able to understand the human real needs. Second, he should be wise, strong, and knowledgeable, so as to be able to lead the human beings to the right path.

As for all the prophets, beginning with Adam and ending with Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon them all, we need to raise some important points that are needed to be understood, so as to comprehend the meaning of their infallibility.
  • The infallibility of the prophets comes after receiving the message command from Allah Almighty.
  • They are the least to commit mistakes among all people. In addition to their wisdom that makes them able to realize the faults of their people.
  • Allah Almighty told us about some of the prophets' mistakes, or faults. But, we need to understand that their faults are never to be regarded as sins.
Some examples of the prophets' mistakes are mentioned in the following hadith narrated by Abu Hurayrah in Al-Bukhari:

“We were in the company of the Prophet at a banquet and a cooked [mutton] forearm was set before him, and he used to like it. He ate a morsel of it and said:

“I will be the chief of all the people on the Day of Resurrection. Do you know how Allah will gather all the first and the last [people] in one level place where an observer will be able to see [all] of them and they will be able to hear the announcer, and the sun will come near to them. Some People will say: “Don't you see, in what condition you are and the state to which you have reached? Why don't you look for a person who can intercede for you with your Lord?” Some people will say: “Appeal to your father, Adam.”

They will go to him and say:

“O Adam! You are the father of all mankind, and Allah created you with His Own Hands, and ordered the angels to prostrate for you, and made you live in Paradise. Will you not intercede for us with your Lord? Don't you see in what [miserable] state we are, and to what condition we have reached?”

On that Adam will reply: “My Lord is so angry as He has never been before and will never be in the future; [besides], He forbade me [to eat from] the tree, but I disobeyed [Him], [I am worried about] myself! Myself! Go to somebody else; go to Noah.”

They will go to Noah and say: “O Noah! You are the first amongst the messengers of Allah to the people of the earth, and Allah named you a thankful slave. Don't you see in what a [miserable] state we are and to what condition we have reached? Will you not intercede for us with your Lord?”

Noah will reply: “Today my Lord has become so angry as He had never been before and will never be in the future. Myself! Myself! Go to the Prophet [Muhammad].”

The people will come to me, and I will prostrate myself underneath Allah's Throne. Then I will be addressed: “O Muhammad! Raise your head; intercede, for your intercession will be accepted, and ask {for anything] for you will be given.”

However, we need to confirm the fact that the prophets were not to commit sins. These are only mistakes, which are proofs of their humanity.

The prophets, peace and blessings be upon them were the wisest among their people. Abraham, for example, knew that his spiritual content needs to be fulfilled by believing and praying to a "god". He, as he'd seen all the people around him, wanted to pray to the idols, but through his pure nature refused this, because of not being convinced that these idols are to be a cause of any good or bad.

He thought of the moon, but still was not convinced. He turned to the sun, because he thought it's bigger. But when the sun disappeared he realized that it would never be a god! Abraham just knew that he is a prophet only after experiencing such conditions.

Even after Allah revealed to him and he became a messenger, he refused to do any action of agreement or refusal, except when Allah could give him the concrete proof of His existence and truthfulness. As in the following verse, which gives the meaning of:
*{And when Ibrahim said: “My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead.” He said: “What! and do you not believe?” He said: “Yes, but that my heart may be at ease.” He said: “Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.”}* (Al-Baqarah 2:260)​
This would never be regarded as a sin committed by Abraham. This is because he just wanted to make sure that he's going to believe in the right religion.

As for Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, Allah Almighty with His early knowledge knew that he will be the seal of the prophets, consequently, He wanted him to be the purest of them all. When, as related by Anas in Sahih Muslim, Gabriel came down and ripped his chest open and took out the heart. He then extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: “That was the part of Satan in thee.”

Then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a gold basin. After that the heart was joined together and restored to its place. The boys and playmates came running to his mother, i.e. his nurse, and said: "Verily, Muhammad, peace be upon him, has been murdered.” They all rushed towards him and found him all right. Only, his face was white.

Allah Almighty says what means:
*{O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner, and as one inviting to Allah by His permission, and as a light-giving torch.}* (Al-Ahzab 33:45-46)​
That's why He wanted him to be free from all that may cause any kind of disbelief of his character by the people around and till the end of time. For he will be the guiding torch to all humanity till the end of the world.

Thank you very much and please keep in touch.
Reading Islam
 

kai

ragamuffin
He is saying that we are using the power of the state to enforce these laws and i don't see the problem in doing that. What is the problem if the state chose to do lashes or to send someone to prison instead?

Heres the problem Tashan an ideal Islamic state has sharia now all Muslims within that state by being Muslim agree to the Hud penalties of Sharia Because as a Muslim you cant really dissagree with them can you?

Now i agree that's your own business you choose to be a muslim but because you cant disagree with Hud penalties you are a little blinkered in seeing that the penalties are hundreds of years old and the world has moved on.

now that may be your business but how can you interact in the 21st century with other societies when your people are for all intents and purposes stuck in the 7th century.


and more importantly for me, would you agree that no one on earth today has the authority to enforce Sharia ? including al-Shabab who carried out this ruling in Somalia?
 
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OneThatGotAway

Servant of Yahweh God Almighty
why are you so concerned about going to prison? its the next life that matters, not this one. god will see you as a coward, and so do i. you believe adulterers should be stoned, but you wont go do it, your a coward, and god will know that

Again, who are you to speak how God sees his followers seeing that you despise the very words that he has blessed mankind with? To know God is to believe and follow His Words. We holy men know how God Almighty thinks of us; because he has written his thoughts and love into His Holy Word (AKA The Holy Bible). I am as much concern about prison the same way Noach was concern about going to prison for stoning adulterers in his days: He knew that his generation was so corrupt that he needed YAHWEH to step in and administered the correct amount of corporate punishment while sparing Noach and his family during the worldwide flood. Noach believed that adulterers should be stone but his hands were tied because of the corrupt government of his day; he was no more a coward than I was. He was wise enough to let YAHWEH untie his hands by destroying the sinners Himself. :angel2:
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course the US has many other forms of punishment. What does that have to do with anything? The fact is that lashings do not rehabilitate - They humiliate and are cruel. The US may also be guilty of debatable practices, but that doesn't change a thing. By that stance I could go kill a bunch of jewish people and say "well it's been done many times before". So that makes it ok? Do you honestly think this is an east vs. west argument? Do you assume that I'm criticizing the practice because it is done by muslims? If so, you need to really think about which one between the two of is is being prejudicial.

I said that because i assumed you are against it because you want us to imitate the west, its values and its laws. If that's not the case then i don't see the problem in being against lashing. Because it doesn't rehabilitate? are you listening to what you are saying? we are talking about a special crime which involve morality and religion, not an offense against people or against the state. When it comes to breaking the laws of Allah, then we have to use the proper punishment set by Allah.

Heres the problem Tashan an ideal Islamic state has sharia now all Muslims within that state by being Muslim agree to the Hud penalties of Sharia Because as a Muslim you cant really dissagree with them can you?

Now i agree that's your own business you choose to be a muslim but because you cant disagree with Hud penalties you are a little blinkered in seeing that the penalties are hundreds of years old and the world has moved on.

now that may be your business but how can you interact in the 21st century with other societies when your people are for all intents and purposes stuck in the 7th century.

and more importantly for me, would you agree that no one on earth today has the authority to enforce Sharia ? including al-Shabab who carried out this ruling in Somalia?

No one on earth has the authority? I wasn't speaking about that. ANY Muslim state has the authority to apply sharia law of course if they are capable of doing so.

Maybe some people think it's barbaric, cruel, and backward to do lashing, but i really don't care what people say about Allah's laws. You have your laws and we have ours.
 

kai

ragamuffin
No one on earth has the authority? I wasn't speaking about that. ANY Muslim state has the authority to apply sharia law of course if they are capable of doing so. So in your eyes any ruling government who proclaims to be Muslim can enforce such punishments and thats fine Islamically speaking. but when we critisize the said government ,junta or whatever please don't answer with there is no real Islamic government today. because it seems to me that from Afghanistan to somalia any one with AK 47 and a Quran has the capability of enforcing their own versions of Sharia

Maybe some people think it's barbaric, cruel, and backward to do lashing, but i really don't care what people say about Allah's laws. You have your laws and we have ours.
and here in lies the crux of the matter you are not able to think outside the box, after all their divine laws,they may be 7th century penalties but their divine.
 

OmarKhayyam

Well-Known Member
We don't live in the US man. :facepalm: I don't live in a secular country with secular laws. There is no separation between state and religion here, sheesh!!!

But why should some citizen who does NOT share a love of your brand of cruelty OR your mythology be subjected to it? I thought your favorite book of fables said there was no compulsion in religion. You call this a "special crime." If you want to consider it as such bully for YOU.

WHY does the state have the right to enforce YOUR mythology on others who do NOT share it?:rolleyes:
 
are you listening to what you are saying? we are talking about a special crime which involve morality and religion, not an offense against people or against the state. When it comes to breaking the laws of Allah, then we have to use the proper punishment set by Allah.

So a non-muslim who does not acknowledge sex outside of marriage as a sin or crime would not be punished for adultery?
 

MSizer

MSizer
I said that because i assumed you are against it because you want us to imitate the west, its values and its laws. If that's not the case then i don't see the problem in being against lashing. Because it doesn't rehabilitate? are you listening to what you are saying? we are talking about a special crime which involve morality and religion, not an offense against people or against the state. When it comes to breaking the laws of Allah, then we have to use the proper punishment set by Allah.

No one on earth has the authority? I wasn't speaking about that. ANY Muslim state has the authority to apply sharia law of course if they are capable of doing so.

Maybe some people think it's barbaric, cruel, and backward to do lashing, but i really don't care what people say about Allah's laws. You have your laws and we have ours.

The fact that you assumed I was being ethnocentric is understandable, we all do it once in a while. But your mythology is interfering with common sense. You fail to appeal to your gift of reason. Law exists becuase it facilitates social order. Mythology and religion (often part in parcel) assist in creating respect for law which only further assists in facilitation social order. That's one of the many things belief in god does, it persuades people to be obey local laws by convincing people that they're ultimate and immutable. But when the mythology is regarded with an absolutist attitude, above the social order, the whole purpose of having law is lost and justice no longer exists. If you want to believe that eating pigs is wrong because allah said so, fine, I believe that slaughtering any living being is wrong because it is immoral (because it causes suffering). Until people recognize that morality is the only justification for law in the first place, then homosexuals, innocent young women, mentally ill and sentient animals will continue to suffer at the atrocious hands of those who value superstition (allah, jesus...) over logic.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
and here in lies the crux of the matter you are not able to think outside the box, after all their divine laws,they may be 7th century penalties but their divine.

Please re-read my post. I said "if they are capable", because not any state have the real understanding and proper knowledge to apply sharia laws.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But why should some citizen who does NOT share a love of your brand of cruelty OR your mythology be subjected to it? I thought your favorite book of fables said there was no compulsion in religion. You call this a "special crime." If you want to consider it as such bully for YOU.

WHY does the state have the right to enforce YOUR mythology on others who do NOT share it?:rolleyes:

Like whom? non-Muslims?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fact that you assumed I was being ethnocentric is understandable, we all do it once in a while. But your mythology is interfering with common sense. You fail to appeal to your gift of reason. Law exists becuase it facilitates social order. Mythology and religion (often part in parcel) assist in creating respect for law which only further assists in facilitation social order. That's one of the many things belief in god does, it persuades people to be obey local laws by convincing people that they're ultimate and immutable. But when the mythology is regarded with an absolutist attitude, above the social order, the whole purpose of having law is lost and justice no longer exists. If you want to believe that eating pigs is wrong because allah said so, fine, I believe that slaughtering any living being is wrong because it is immoral (because it causes suffering). Until people recognize that morality is the only justification for law in the first place, then homosexuals, innocent young women, mentally ill and sentient animals will continue to suffer at the atrocious hands of those who value superstition (allah, jesus...) over logic.

Who told you that these laws are above the social order? who told you that these laws aren't accepted by Muslims?
 

JMorris

Democratic Socialist
Oh my! that only apply to Muslims. What does the non-Muslims have to do with these laws? :facepalm:

generally, in a nation of laws, the laws apply to everyone. different religious groups dont have different sets of laws. so i wonder, in KSA for example, are non-muslims allowed to commit adultery, while muslims are not?
 

kai

ragamuffin
Please re-read my post. I said "if they are capable", because not any state have the real understanding and proper knowledge to apply sharia laws.

Tashan you know as well as i do that an AK47 makes them capable of applying their own understanding of Sharia laws.
 
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