Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)

[BlandOatmeal]

...it's ironic that you and I switched, and maybe we passed each other somewhere in the process. I used to teach Christian theology to adults for 14 years, and became a Jew by choice starting around 20 years ago (a looooong story), and my wife is Christian but has stopped going as of two months ago (not because of me). I also taught comparative religions for two years...

I have no idea how these things work. I'm just a poor boy, trying to get along. Happy Thanksgivukkah!

​

 

[Pegg]

Hopefully, we will not get into "70 Weeks" prophecy of Daniel 9 here. Franklin wanted to talk about the statue, which is why I started this thread. There is a relationship between that statue and the beasts of Daniel 7, but I don't see any connection with Daniel 9. The latter has probably been thoroughly argued over on RF on both sides, and I just see it as a distraction here.

The statue symbolized those very beasts.... Daniels beasts and statue are one and the same as Daniel himself wrote: Dan 7;17*“‘As for these huge beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth.


The statue signified the type of rulership and the beasts symbolized the earthly nature of all of them.

As regards that image, "its head was of good gold"
See Jeremiah 51:7 where we are told that 'Babylon' has been a "golden cup in the hand of Jehovah, she making all the earth drunk".
And then Daniel tells the King (Daniel 4:22) it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

He also calls this 'gold head', the first of the beasts, a 'lion'
Daniel 7:4 “The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle.



The next part of the Statue is the "breasts and its arms were of silver",
This was also called 'the bear'
Dan 7:5*“And, see there! another beast, a second one, it being like a bear. And on one side it was raised up, and there were three ribs in its mouth between its teeth; and this is what they were saying to it, ‘Get up, eat much flesh.’
Daniel told the King of Babylon that 'after him' would come another kingdom which would not prove to be as strong
(Daniel 2:39) “And after you there will rise another kingdom inferior to you;"
The next kingdom proved to be the Medes & Persian dual world power. They took down Babylon in one night.
Daniel 5:28 records the night when the Babylonians were informed that their kingdom would fall to the next world power “PE′RES, your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and the Persians.”
These Medes and Persians were described as the Ram with 2 horns. (the two horns representing the two nations who joined forces)
And the next beast is the 'hairy he-goat' which the angel explained was 'the king of Greece' who was the one who conquored the Medes and Persian empire.... that proved to be Alexander the Great.

20*“The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Me′di·a and Persia. 21*And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king. 22*And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power.

(Daniel 11:2) And now what is truth I shall tell to you: “Look! There will yet be three kings standing up for Persia, and the fourth one will amass greater riches than all [others]. And as soon as he has become strong in his riches, he will rouse up everything against the kingdom of Greece.


So you see, these beasts and the statue are the same thing. They are both symbolizing world rulers and they are all 'beasts' in the eyes of God because they behave like wild animals killing one another. The history of man has been one of bloodshed at the hands of world rulers and their armies....all of them proving to be like wild beasts.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

The statue symbolized those very beasts.... Daniels beasts and statue are one and the same as Daniel himself wrote: Dan 7;17*“‘As for these huge beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth.

Hi, Pegg. Let me take my turn being devil's advocate:

King 1 (gold): Nabu-kudurri-usur (Nebuchadnezzar II) 604 – 562 BC Chaldean king. Defeated the Egyptians and Assyrians at Carchemish. Is associated with Daniel in the Bible.

King 2 (silver): Amel-Marduk 562 – 560 BC

King 3 (brass): Nergal-shar-usur (Nergal-sharezer/Neriglissar) 560 – 556 BC

King 4 (iron): Labashi-Marduk 556 BC

King 5 (iron with clay): Nabu-na'id (Nabonidus) 556 – 539 BC Last Mesopotamian king of Babylon, originated in Harran in Assyria. Was not a Chaldean, often left rule to his son Belshazzar.

Messiah (large rock): Cyrus II of Persia 539 – 529 BC

Put that together with the following, and voila! A doctrine!

Isaiah 44;
[24] Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
[25] That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;
[26] That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
[27] That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
[28] That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Isaiah 45:
[1] Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;
[2] I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:
[3] And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.
[4] For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
[5] I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
[6] That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
[8] Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it.

I'm serious about this. I have seen people interpreting the word "king" literally; and some believe that Cyrus (Koresh, in Persian) was the promised Messiah. David Koresh certainly thought so.

The statue signified the type of rulership and the beasts symbolized the earthly nature of all of them.

I've also considered that the statue, being inanimate, represented the KINGDOMS rather than the kings; for people worship their countries and identify with them. It's called "patriotism". The beasts of Daniel 7, on the other hand, were spirits that get into people's thinking and cause them to so worship.

As regards that image, "its head was of good gold"
See Jeremiah 51:7 where we are told that 'Babylon' has been a "golden cup in the hand of Jehovah, she making all the earth drunk".

I won't look in Jeremiah, for this mix-and-matching can only lead to trouble. Gold is used often in the Bible as a figure, and so is the city of Babylon. I'm not saying you are wrong; just that I try to avoid book-skipping.

And then Daniel tells the King (Daniel 4:22) it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.

He also calls this 'gold head', the first of the beasts, a 'lion'
Daniel 7:4 “The first one was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle.

There is certainly a numerical and ordinal equivalence between the lion and the head of gold; but that is not a convincing connection of itself. I know a brother who sincerely believes, for instance, that the ten horns of the beast are the ten virgins of Jesus' parable -- simply because both number "ten".

The next part of the Statue is the "breasts and its arms were of silver",
This was also called 'the bear' ...

...same reasoning as above.

These Medes and Persians were described as the Ram with 2 horns. (the two horns representing the two nations who joined forces)

That's significant, in that it corresponds with the two bones in the bear's mouth.

And the next beast is the 'hairy he-goat' which the angel explained was 'the king of Greece' who was the one who conquored the Medes and Persian empire.... that proved to be Alexander the Great.
Oddly, Alexander was clean-shaven; it was the Persians. Since Daniel explicitly identifies him with the king of Greece, though, we must defer to the Greece interpretation.

20*“The ram that you saw possessing the two horns [stands for] the kings of Me′di·a and Persia. 21*And the hairy he-goat [stands for] the king of Greece; and as for the great horn that was between its eyes, it [stands for] the first king. 22*And that one having been broken, so that there were four that finally stood up instead of it, there are four kingdoms from [his] nation that will stand up, but not with his power.

Of course, Alexander's empire descended upon his minor son, under the guardianship of Antigonus. Four generals then rose up in rebellion against him and divided the empire. What I note even more than this, is that the "beast" (the goat) represented an ETHNIC GROUP (the Macedonians) from which Alexander and his generals derived, and the horns represented individual kings that came to represent countries:

• Lysimachus (Thrace)
• Cassander (Macedonia)
• Seleucis (Syria)
• Ptolemey (Egypt)

​

The prophetic imagery is analogous to the ten horns of the fourth beast, which could be interpreted as being the many powerful nations of Europe and its colonies (NATO, for instance) that derive from the Roman Empire. Again, I have seen confusion here, because some interpret the kings as successive Roman emperORS -- in a fashion just like the devil's advocate in me pointed out for Nebuchadnezzar's statue.

I've seen so many interpretations of these things, I will be interested to see what others have to say.

Shalom shalom, and Happy Thanksgivukkah! :candle:
​

 

[metis]

I have no idea how these things work. I'm just a poor boy, trying to get along. Happy Thanksgivukkah!

Same to you, and I love the picture!

 

[metis]

Daniel was most certainly one of them.

The rise and fall of future world powers such as Greece and Rome and the time of the arrival of the Messiah would certainly constitute him as such.

Again, the word "prophet" does not mean to predict the future, and only time could tell whether Jesus would be the Messiah since most of the predictions weren't fulfilled.

 

[Pegg]

Again, the word "prophet" does not mean to predict the future, and only time could tell whether Jesus would be the Messiah since most of the predictions weren't fulfilled.

Jesus prophecies included events far far into the future

Where we are in the stream of time is the issue here, not the prophecies. Many of his prophecies are already fulfilled, ie the destruction of Jerusalem...that happened relatively quickly; 37 years later.

The events he described for the 'last days' is also happening right now, all around the world simultaneously.

His prophecies have already proved true, so why doubt the few which remain to be fulfilled? Of course they are going to happen just like all the ones we have already seen happen.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Jesus prophecies included events far far into the future

Where we are in the stream of time is the issue here, not the prophecies. Many of his prophecies are already fulfilled, ie the destruction of Jerusalem...that happened relatively quickly; 37 years later.

The events he described for the 'last days' is also happening right now, all around the world simultaneously...

I agree, Pegg, that (1) many prophecies have already been fulfiied -- We need to identify them, so we can focus on the others, and (2) some prophecies are ongoing today. As for the "Last Days", I consider the past 2000 years to all be part of the "Last Days".

Ooh -- You haven't responded to my "devil's advocacy" yet. Maybe Franklin can. There are some points of identity, which can identify the statue of the man with the four beasts. The most obvious is the ten toes of the man, which may correspond with the ten horns of the fourth beast. Some have also noted that the two legs correspond to the two halves of the Roman Empire at one time. That's fair enough; but are we to expect five kings to come from the Eastern Empire, and five from the West? From the West, we have the five Great Powers of Congress Europe (q.v.): Britain, France, Austria, Russia, the German Empire and Italy -- minus Russia, perhaps, though their ruling house was very much connected with those of the West. The Eastern Empire was conquered by the Ottoman Turks, then expanded in all directions to include modern Georgia and most of the Arab countries. If we extrapolate from the "toes", therefore, we can have a real mess. It is VERY popular among "pop prophets" nowadays, to try to identify "the beast", "the beasts" or anything wicked-sounding with the Arabs and Muslims. I don't want to open the door for that sort of thing.

 

[Pegg]

I agree, Pegg, that (1) many prophecies have already been fulfiied -- We need to identify them, so we can focus on the others, and (2) some prophecies are ongoing today. As for the "Last Days", I consider the past 2000 years to all be part of the "Last Days".

ah, and this is the real beauty of Daniels prophecy.... he gives us the timing of when the 'last days' actually begin. And its his timing of events that let us fully see the fulfillment of the 'sign' given by Jesus and recorded in Matthew and Lukes gospels.

Ooh -- You haven't responded to my "devil's advocacy" yet. Maybe Franklin can. There are some points of identity, which can identify the statue of the man with the four beasts. The most obvious is the ten toes of the man, which may correspond with the ten horns of the fourth beast. Some have also noted that the two legs correspond to the two halves of the Roman Empire at one time. That's fair enough; but are we to expect five kings to come from the Eastern Empire, and five from the West? From the West, we have the five Great Powers of Congress Europe (q.v.): Britain, France, Austria, Russia, the German Empire and Italy -- minus Russia, perhaps, though their ruling house was very much connected with those of the West. The Eastern Empire was conquered by the Ottoman Turks, then expanded in all directions to include modern Georgia and most of the Arab countries. If we extrapolate from the "toes", therefore, we can have a real mess. It is VERY popular among "pop prophets" nowadays, to try to identify "the beast", "the beasts" or anything wicked-sounding with the Arabs and Muslims. I don't want to open the door for that sort of thing.

Daniels prophecy is fairly clear that the 'beasts' would direcly impact Gods people. So any worldly government would need to show some direct conflict against Gods people.

Daniel 10:14*And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come].”

The ruling beasts would also have to be world rulers... i dont think a lot of the countries alone constitute empires... but there are a couple who fit the bill.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I agree, Pegg, that (1) many prophecies have already been fulfiied -- We need to identify them, so we can focus on the others, and (2) some prophecies are ongoing today. As for the "Last Days", I consider the past 2000 years to all be part of the "Last Days".

Ooh -- You haven't responded to my "devil's advocacy" yet. Maybe Franklin can. There are some points of identity, which can identify the statue of the man with the four beasts. The most obvious is the ten toes of the man, which may correspond with the ten horns of the fourth beast. Some have also noted that the two legs correspond to the two halves of the Roman Empire at one time. That's fair enough; but are we to expect five kings to come from the Eastern Empire, and five from the West? From the West, we have the five Great Powers of Congress Europe (q.v.): Britain, France, Austria, Russia, the German Empire and Italy -- minus Russia, perhaps, though their ruling house was very much connected with those of the West. The Eastern Empire was conquered by the Ottoman Turks, then expanded in all directions to include modern Georgia and most of the Arab countries. If we extrapolate from the "toes", therefore, we can have a real mess. It is VERY popular among "pop prophets" nowadays, to try to identify "the beast", "the beasts" or anything wicked-sounding with the Arabs and Muslims. I don't want to open the door for that sort of thing.

It can also be pointed out that the clay mix with iron of the feet of the statue could refer to the splitting of the greek empire after the death of Alexander the Great.

Or the division of the Roman Republic, before being taken by Augustus and becoming the Roman Empire.

 

[Pegg]

It can also be pointed out that the clay mix with iron of the feet of the statue could refer to the splitting of the greek empire after the death of Alexander the Great.

Or the division of the Roman Republic, before being taken by Augustus and becoming the Roman Empire.

it could also represent weakened world governments as a result of factions and divided nations...democracy has certainly destabalized governments...when you divide the rulership among many people, there is a loss of control and this is certainly showing itself to be true in our time today


"Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.”—Daniel*2:41-43

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Originally Posted by BlandOatmeal
I agree, Pegg, that (1) many prophecies have already been fulfiied -- We need to identify them, so we can focus on the others, and (2) some prophecies are ongoing today. As for the "Last Days", I consider the past 2000 years to all be part of the "Last Days".

ah, and this is the real beauty of Daniels prophecy.... he gives us the timing of when the 'last days' actually begin. And its his timing of events that let us fully see the fulfillment of the 'sign' given by Jesus and recorded in Matthew and Lukes gospels.

Oy! I need to post the verses, so we can keep track of what we're talking about:

Daniel 2
[38] ...[Nebuchadnezzar is] this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Concerning timing, I am most concerned with the passage "in the days of these kings". Did he mean "in the days of all the kings, from gold to iron and clay?" Did he mean, "in the days of the second, third and fourth kings, which are said to have ruled AFTER Nebuchadnezzar? Since the third king would rule "all the earth", it seems he would have swallowed up the second kingdom. Could he, therefore, have been talking about the third and fourth kingdoms? That is possible; and it is also possible that the division of the fourth kingdom produced multiple, contemporary, kings.

This vision is a prophecy of an eternal kingdom, which would BEGIN to come to power while the "metal" kingdoms are still standing, then proceed to break in pieces not just the fourth king, but ALL the metal kings INCLUDING Nebuchadnezzar.

Upon reading this, I can't see how this prophecy "gives us the timing of when the 'last days' actually begin." In fact, the "last days" don't seem to be described as an EVENT at all, but as an ongoing phenomen, from Nebuchadnezzar's day onward, on the outside, or at the very least during the days of the divided fourth kingdom. If that fourth kingdom is identified with the Romans, they were divided by various civil wars -- Caesar vs. Pompey, Brutus vs. Marc Antony, Augustus vs. Marc Antony, the immediate successors of Nero, etc.

The "iron mixed with clay" symbolism seems to indicate an attempt at confederation. That most notably occurred under the Dominate, from 284 until 476. After the days of those kings, only the Eastern Empire remained. Was the "end times" kingdom inaugurated then? Christians say it began before those days, during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. Someone arguing that the "eternal kingdom" began with Constantine the Great or Pope Leo I might like that timing.

There are many, of course, including today's Jews, who claim that the promised eternal kingdom has not come yet; and the "legs and toes" kingdom lives on. None of this seems clear, though, in what I've read so far in Daniel.

 

[Pegg]

Oy! I need to post the verses, so we can keep track of what we're talking about:

Daniel 2
[38] ...[Nebuchadnezzar is] this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Concerning timing, I am most concerned with the passage "in the days of these kings". Did he mean "in the days of all the kings, from gold to iron and clay?" Did he mean, "in the days of the second, third and fourth kings, which are said to have ruled AFTER Nebuchadnezzar? Since the third king would rule "all the earth", it seems he would have swallowed up the second kingdom. Could he, therefore, have been talking about the third and fourth kingdoms? That is possible; and it is also possible that the division of the fourth kingdom produced multiple, contemporary, kings.

This vision is a prophecy of an eternal kingdom, which would BEGIN to come to power while the "metal" kingdoms are still standing, then proceed to break in pieces not just the fourth king, but ALL the metal kings INCLUDING Nebuchadnezzar.

Upon reading this, I can't see how this prophecy "gives us the timing of when the 'last days' actually begin." In fact, the "last days" don't seem to be described as an EVENT at all, but as an ongoing phenomen, from Nebuchadnezzar's day onward, on the outside, or at the very least during the days of the divided fourth kingdom. If that fourth kingdom is identified with the Romans, they were divided by various civil wars -- Caesar vs. Pompey, Brutus vs. Marc Antony, Augustus vs. Marc Antony, the immediate successors of Nero, etc.

The "iron mixed with clay" symbolism seems to indicate an attempt at confederation. That most notably occurred under the Dominate, from 284 until 476. After the days of those kings, only the Eastern Empire remained. Was the "end times" kingdom inaugurated then? Christians say it began before those days, during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. Someone arguing that the "eternal kingdom" began with Constantine the Great or Pope Leo I might like that timing.

There are many, of course, including today's Jews, who claim that the promised eternal kingdom has not come yet; and the "legs and toes" kingdom lives on. None of this seems clear, though, in what I've read so far in Daniel.

Daniel 2:41*“And whereas you beheld the feet and the toes to be partly of molded clay of a potter and partly of iron, the kingdom itself will prove to be divided, but somewhat of the hardness of iron will prove to be in it, forasmuch as you beheld the iron mixed with moist clay. 42*And as for the toes of the feet being partly of iron and partly of molded clay, the kingdom will partly prove to be strong and will partly prove to be fragile. 43*Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.
44*“And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom

The context shows that the 'days of those kings' refers to the 'feet' of the image where the iron (kings) are mixed with clay (offspring of mankind)

So the timing of Gods kingdom destroying these beastlike kingdoms is not during any of the previous kingdoms but during the time when the kingdoms of the world are divided and shattered into separate smaller rulerships..

 

[metis]

Jesus prophecies included events far far into the future

Where we are in the stream of time is the issue here, not the prophecies. Many of his prophecies are already fulfilled, ie the destruction of Jerusalem...that happened relatively quickly; 37 years later.

The events he described for the 'last days' is also happening right now, all around the world simultaneously.

His prophecies have already proved true, so why doubt the few which remain to be fulfilled? Of course they are going to happen just like all the ones we have already seen happen.

How about when he predicted he would come back in "this generation", which was almost 2000 years ago? Paul even told the early church at first not to marry because the 2nd coming was eminent, but later finally relented.

BTW, over and over again and for well over a thousand years, many Christians predicted, including the J.W.'s, "The end is near!", and yet here we are.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

Originally Posted by BlandOatmeal

Ooh -- You haven't responded to my "devil's advocacy" yet. Maybe Franklin can. There are some points of identity, which can identify the statue of the man with the four beasts. The most obvious is the ten toes of the man, which may correspond with the ten horns of the fourth beast. Some have also noted that the two legs correspond to the two halves of the Roman Empire at one time. That's fair enough; but are we to expect five kings to come from the Eastern Empire, and five from the West? From the West, we have the five Great Powers of Congress Europe (q.v.): Britain, France, Austria, Russia, the German Empire and Italy -- minus Russia, perhaps, though their ruling house was very much connected with those of the West. The Eastern Empire was conquered by the Ottoman Turks, then expanded in all directions to include modern Georgia and most of the Arab countries. If we extrapolate from the "toes", therefore, we can have a real mess. It is VERY popular among "pop prophets" nowadays, to try to identify "the beast", "the beasts" or anything wicked-sounding with the Arabs and Muslims. I don't want to open the door for that sort of thing.
Daniels prophecy is fairly clear that the 'beasts' would direcly impact Gods people. So any worldly government would need to show some direct conflict against Gods people.

Daniel 10:14*And I have come to cause you to discern what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days [to come].”

The ruling beasts would also have to be world rulers... i dont think a lot of the countries alone constitute empires... but there are a couple who fit the bill.

I don't think you grasped what I said here. We have not yet established that the "statue" vision of Nebuchadnezzar is analogous to the "beasts" vision of Daniel. The only 1:1 correspondence is with the numbers: four metals: four beasts; ten toes: ten horns. Those numbers correspond fine, in a fashion similar to Pharaoh's seven kine: seven ears of corn. I just want to find out if there is agreement among us all on this matter.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

It can also be pointed out that the clay mix with iron of the feet of the statue could refer to the splitting of the greek empire after the death of Alexander the Great.

Or the division of the Roman Republic, before being taken by Augustus and becoming the Roman Empire.

I don't think so, Franklin, because of the numbers. The division of Alexander's empire is associated with the number four, not ten:

Daniel 7
[6] After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Daniel 8
[8] Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
...
[21] And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
[23] And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

I notice that the goat does not represent any king, but rather the NATION; and the prophecy refers to all the Helenistic successor kingdoms as part of the same NATION. This is the first time I've noticed in these prophecies, that the beasts are referred to as ETHNIC GROUPS. The horns, on the other hand, seem to be associated with dynasties. I will probably refer back to this in the other thread, that deals with the Book of Revelation.

Concerning the other possibility you raised, both the Roman Republic AND the Roman Empire were often wracked by civil wars. That might have something to do with the TWO legs; but a division into TEN prominent parts did not happen, so far as I can see, until the breakup of Charlemagne's ("Holy Roman") Empire:

1. In 887, a definitive disintegration of the Empire took place, forming:

1. the Kingdom of Germany
2. the Kingdom of France
3. the Kingdom of Italy (later re-absorbed into the HRE)
4. the Kingdom of Burgundy (later re-absorbed into the HRE)
5. the Kingdom of Provence (later absorbed into Burgundy > reverted to HRE)
6. the County of Barcelona (whence came Aragon)
7. the independent Bretons
8. the independent Basques (whence came Navarre > Leon & Castile)

2. In 911, the King of France ceded Normandy to the invading Danes, making them his nominal subjects. They intermarried with the royal line. By 1130, Norman dukes had formed two kingdoms through conquest:

1. the Kingdom of England, and
2. the Kingdom of Sicily

3. In northern Germany, a Slavic line intermarried with local nobles (descended from Charlemagne) to form the House of Oldenburg. From this line came the monarchs of Denmark, Russia, Greece, Norway, Schleswig, Holstein, Oldenburg and Sweden.

I only mention these here, to show the propagation of multiple kingdoms, ten and more in number, from the HRE -- which, in turn derived dynastically from the Frankish foederates of Rome. I would like to continue the "ten kings" discussion, as much as possible, on the "Empires of Revelation" thread, as these are mentioned much more in Revelation than in Daniel.

 

[BlandOatmeal]

it could also represent weakened world governments as a result of factions and divided nations...democracy has certainly destabalized governments...when you divide the rulership among many people, there is a loss of control and this is certainly showing itself to be true in our time today

"Whereas you beheld iron mixed with moist clay, they will come to be mixed with the offspring of mankind; but they will not prove to be sticking together, this one to that one, just as iron is not mixing with molded clay.”—Daniel*2:41-43

When I first read this in the Bible, I thought it curious that "iron mixed with clay" should be the successor to the metals gold, silver, brass and Iron. I noticed that the metals became increasingly strong, at the same time that they became increasingly base. Then it dawned on me that "iron mixed with clay" might have described steel-reinforced concrete, from which modern skyskrapers are built. The Romans used such material in the Panthenon (below):

​

After about 400 AD, the art of concrete making was lost, and not revived until re-discovered by an Englishman, Joseph Moxon, in 1678. The intervening "dark ages" lasted, curiously, just over 1,260 years.

I hadn't thought much about the "mingling with men" aspect of this, from

Daniel 2
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The royal lines of Europe are of Germanic origin, mingled with local peoples such as the Basque, the Danes, the Welsh, etc. I don't know what this "mingling" signifies scripturally.

 

[Pegg]

How about when he predicted he would come back in "this generation", which was almost 2000 years ago? Paul even told the early church at first not to marry because the 2nd coming was eminent, but later finally relented.

BTW, over and over again and for well over a thousand years, many Christians predicted, including the J.W.'s, "The end is near!", and yet here we are.

Jesus did return to that generation after his death.... 3 days later he was resurrected.

Have you considered that perhaps we are living in the time of 'the end'? The sign given by Jesus is a sure indicator that we are....the scriptures say that the 'last days' will span for a 'short period of time'

So entering into the 'end' was never meant to mean that all would end at that point. There is still more to come.

 

[Pegg]

I don't think you grasped what I said here. We have not yet established that the "statue" vision of Nebuchadnezzar is analogous to the "beasts" vision of Daniel. The only 1:1 correspondence is with the numbers: four metals: four beasts; ten toes: ten horns. Those numbers correspond fine, in a fashion similar to Pharaoh's seven kine: seven ears of corn. I just want to find out if there is agreement among us all on this matter.

But Daniel does establish that the beast and statue are one and the same. So we dont have to 'interpret' anything...
Daniel 7:17*“‘As for these huge beasts, because they are four, there are four kings that will stand up from the earth.

Earlier in chapter 2, Daniel explained the dream of the Statue to King Nebudchudnezza. He was the first king and 4 more would arise afterhim:
Daniel 2:31*“You, O king, happened to be beholding, and, look! a certain immense image. That image, which was large and the brightness of which was extraordinary, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was dreadful. 32*As regards that image, its head was of good gold, its breasts and its arms were of silver, its belly and its thighs were of copper, 33*its legs were of iron, its feet were partly of iron and partly of molded clay
39*“And after you there will rise another kingdom inferior to you; and another kingdom, a third one, of copper, that will rule over the whole earth


Think about it: if Nebudchudnezza was the first of Gold head of the statue AND the first of the ruling world empires, then they are one and the same.
Let the bible interpret itself and you will find the truth.

 

[Pegg]

I hadn't thought much about the "mingling with men" aspect of this, from

Daniel 2
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

The royal lines of Europe are of Germanic origin, mingled with local peoples such as the Basque, the Danes, the Welsh, etc. I don't know what this "mingling" signifies scripturally.

we beleive it signifies the breaking apart of empires into smaller fragmented groups of self governed nations.

democratic nations often are breakaways of empires. America is a breakaway of the British empire for example. Australia is also a self governed nation who was of the british empire and so are many other nations. But democratic nations (ruled by many people) are not as strong as an empire. So this is well symbolized by the mixing of 'iron' and 'clay'

clay would weaken any structure.

Anyway, we believe we are now living in the time of the statues feet. Soon we will see the 'stone not cut by hands strike the image and shatter it to the ground'

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

You realized that most nations were to a degree self governed (swearing loyalty however to the top leader or controlling group). The system that we have in place now with a federal government and your state officials mirrors what many of an empires would do (only with more checks and balances). You also find this is many other countries as well currently.