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Statue of Daniel 2 (Abrahamic only)

BlandOatmeal

Active Member
This is for Abrahamic faiths only (Jewish & derivative) If your religious roots are from south of Thailand or west of India, I'll accept you as Abrahamic. Pagans, of course, have counted themselves out of this one.

There is a prophecy in Daniel, based on a vision of a statue:

Daniel 2
[31] Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
[32] This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
[33] His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
[35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
[36] This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
[37] Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Some say this prophecy points toward the days we live in; others say other things. Let's discuss it.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
1st Criticisms: The Ethnocentric (goodness I hope that's the right word), interpretations of the prophecy.

The interpretation of the prophecy is that the statue represents several key major empires that have existed (this of course defining empires by a very westernized concept, but to continue), it goes in order Babylon, Persia, Greece (Usually considered the empire that ruled the whole world), and then the Roman Empire (which started as the republic and would later become the empire under Augustus). However history has shown us that in terms of Empire's the largest and most successful conquering empire was the one founded by Ghengis Khan, who ruled over an empire that was around 2 times the size of what Alexander the Great had ruled, and did so not only successfully but managed to live long enough to pass it on to his children. His the only human credited with a possible evolutionary shift (arguably), in that his campaign left vast amounts of land for animals to regain a foothold after years of human settlements. The only individual who has ever successfully conquered Afghanistan (where empires go to die). Also appeared during a time where the Muslims and Christians were at war and cared very little for the holy city (I might be off on that timeline).

I think that the issue with the interpretation prophecy of Daniel (ignoring literary criticisms), is an example of the limited and rather ethnocentric view of the message. Even today I would argue most westerners are not at all aware of the accounts of Genghis Khan, and so continue to interpret the prophecy in the manner that they do. But if we look at history, where does such an empire fall into the prophetic vision?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes, I believe Daniel's prophecy recorded in advance the march of world powers from Babylon until today. The stunning accuracy of Daniels prophecies mark them as inspired by God. And as Daniel 2:35,44,45 states, all of man's governments face imminent destruction by God's kingdom.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Yes, I believe Daniel's prophecy recorded in advance the march of world powers from Babylon until today. The stunning accuracy of Daniels prophecies mark them as inspired by God. And as Daniel 2:35,44,45 states, all of man's governments face imminent destruction by God's kingdom.

So you don't care about the Mongol Empire?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Are you sure? The book of Daniel is full of prophecy, and the book of Daniel makes clear Daniel received these prophecies from God, as does the rest of the Scriptures.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
So you don't care about the Mongol Empire?

Daniel's prophecy centered on world powers that affected God's people, not every empire that ever existed. The mongols played no significant role in this regard, nor did other empires.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
This is for Abrahamic faiths only (Jewish & derivative) If your religious roots are from south of Thailand or west of India, I'll accept you as Abrahamic. Pagans, of course, have counted themselves out of this one.

There is a prophecy in Daniel, based on a vision of a statue:

Daniel 2
[31] Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.
[32] This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
[33] His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
[35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
[36] This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
[37] Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
[38] And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
[39] And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
[40] And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
[41] And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
[42] And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
[43] And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
[44] And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
[45] Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Some say this prophecy points toward the days we live in; others say other things. Let's discuss it.

Flankerl is correct as Daniel never spoke from God on God's behalf, which is what a "prophet" is. About a third of the prophets never had any futuristic predictions.

So Jews only.

God's people also include true Christians, IMO
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Are you sure? The book of Daniel is full of prophecy, and the book of Daniel makes clear Daniel received these prophecies from God, as does the rest of the Scriptures.

I am often asked why the Book of Daniel is included in the Writings section of the Tanakh instead of the Prophets section. Wasn't Daniel a prophet? Weren't his visions of the future true?

According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.
-- Judaism 101: Prophets and Prophecy
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Flankerl is correct as Daniel never spoke from God on God's behalf, which is what a "prophet" is. About a third of the prophets never had any futuristic predictions.

I see. So it's because he didn't write, "an affirmation of God" after what he must've believed came directly from God, even the future?


I don't think the average person even gets to the point where they throw Daniel out of the "prophet" category, without it being some sort of decision or traditional consensus.

But like you all point out, you've owned Judaism and its recommended, Oral teachings, for some time now.

What is the teaching on Daniel?

Well we are not the ones to eat human flesh and drink human blood every seventh day.

Yet God doesn't strike them down at your command, like Elijah, a man of God? And none of your friends or family can say, "If I be a man of God, fire comes down from the heavens, and consumes them all"?

Flankerl said:
So in perspective not so weird at all.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I see. So it's because he didn't write, "an affirmation of God" after what he must've believed came directly from God, even the future?



I don't think the average person even gets to the point where they throw Daniel out of the "prophet" category, without it being some sort of decision or traditional consensus.

But like you all point out, you've owned Judaism and its recommended, Oral teachings, for some time now.

What is the teaching on Daniel?



Yet God doesn't strike them down at your command, like Elijah, a man of God? And none of your friends or family can say, "If I be a man of God, fire comes down from the heavens, and consumes them all"?

I guess the important thing from a scholarly consensus would be to try to prove the existence of a Daniel during that time period in Babylon.

To me, they don't seem to be real stories but just tales spun up among those who were brought to Babylon. It is a tale similar to that of Joseph in Egypt and was probably used as such.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I am often asked why the Book of Daniel is included in the Writings section of the Tanakh instead of the Prophets section. Wasn't Daniel a prophet? Weren't his visions of the future true?

According to Judaism, Daniel is not one of the 55 prophets. His writings include visions of the future, which we believe to be true; however, his mission was not that of a prophet. His visions of the future were never intended to be proclaimed to the people; they were designed to be written down for future generations. Thus, they are Writings, not Prophecies, and are classified accordingly.
-- Judaism 101: Prophets and Prophecy

Daniel receives these visions from God, they're written, proclaimed, and ingested by the people, and we speak as if God made these distinctions Himself.

Where does this decision originate?
 
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