Spiritual Enlightenment: what is it/what it is.

[godnotgod]

Yes, this reality *is* reality.

...we do have a common reality that we can learn about through observation and testing.

You have rejected reality for a dream because reality seems like an illusion. Now it is time to go back and realize reality is reality and enlightenment is the dream.

To quote your own words:

"...we have to give up most of our pre-conceptions concerning how things 'must be' because how they really are is seldom what we think they should be."

So 'this reality' that you say IS reality, is not actually Reality. That is what I am saying to you. The world, as it appears to be, that is to say, as 'real' is not real, but an illusion. Even when we apply science, we only come up with how the illusion behaves and how we can predict that behavior. That's really all science is. But science cannot tell us what the world actually IS. Science is still an altered state of consciousness. In order to see into the true nature of Reality, we must go to another kind of view.

 

[godnotgod]

I'm a Hindu. Enlightenment, the term, is more closely associated with Buddhism, but yeah, sure.

Yes, I know, but in Hinduism, when the jiva 'becomes' Brahman, that is the same experience.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, I know, but in Hinduism, when the jiva 'becomes' Brahman, that is the same experience.

I wouldn't know. One cannot simultaneously be a Buddhist and a Hindu, although universalists would disagree. One conclusion is described as a void, while the other as fullness. Maybe it's the same thing, and maybe it isn't.

 

[godnotgod]

I don't know everything. But I know enough to be skeptical of those who claim to know everything. And I know enough to know that people tend to delude themselves.

Hmmm?....did crowfeather claim to know everything? Did I?

 

[savagewind]

Hmmm?....did crowfeather claim to know everything? Did I?

Nobody has ever claimed to know everything,

 

[godnotgod]

I wouldn't know. One cannot simultaneously be a Buddhist and a Hindu, although universalists would disagree. One conclusion is described as a void, while the other as fullness. Maybe it's the same thing, and maybe it isn't.

How can you have Everything without first having Nothing? To put it in the words of Kalu Rinpoche:

“We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”

There is only One Reality, which is beyond the doctrines of Buddhism and Hinduism. It is that singular Reality which one realizes in both Buddhism and Hinduism.

If you agree that Reality is singular, then the Void and Fullness are one and the same singular Reality, are they not?

 

[savagewind]

There is only One Reality, which is beyond the doctrines of Buddhism and Hinduism. It is that singular Reality which one realizes in both Buddhism and Hinduism.

......and Jesus Christ.

 

[godnotgod]

Nobody has ever claimed to know everything,

Not as far as factual knowledge is concerned, at least. But in terms of the nature of all things, one can indeed know that, because what you are is what Everything is, just as the saltiness of the sea is the same saltiness everywhere.

 

[godnotgod]

......and Jesus Christ.

Huh?

 

[Vinayaka]

How can you have Everything without first having Nothing? To put it in the words of Kalu Rinpoche:

“We live in illusion and the appearance of things. There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all.”

There is only One Reality, which is beyond the doctrines of Buddhism and Hinduism. It is that singular Reality which one realizes in both Buddhism and Hinduism.

Maybe. Maybe not. But at least in dharmic paradigms we will supposedly find our for ourselves one day, when the time is ripe.

 

[godnotgod]

Maybe. Maybe not. But at least in dharmic paradigms we will supposedly find our for ourselves one day, when the time is ripe.

If you are going to wait to see, you will never ever find out. Reality is staring you in the face, here, now, and at no other time. Ripeness is always at hand, and the Universe is always complete.

 

[Polymath257]

So 'this reality' that you say IS reality, is not actually Reality. That is what I am saying to you. The world, as it appears to be, that is to say, as 'real' is not real, but an illusion. Even when we apply science, we only come up with how the illusion behaves and how we can predict that behavior. That's really all science is. But science cannot tell us what the world actually IS. Science is still an altered state of consciousness. In order to see into the true nature of Reality, we must go to another kind of view.

And I disagree. So, a good question is how do we decide which of us is correct? What experiment or observation can we make that will settle the issue? if enlightenment is just another dream state, how could we tell? If it is not, how could we tell? Is it even meaningful to ask?

 

[savagewind]

Not as far as factual knowledge is concerned, at least. But in terms of the nature of all things, one can indeed know that, because what you are is what Everything is, just as the saltiness of the sea is the same saltiness everywhere.

I want to rate that, but there is no rating for pure philosophical.

 

[YmirGF]

Not as far as factual knowledge is concerned, at least. But in terms of the nature of all things, one can indeed know that, because what you are is what Everything is, just as the saltiness of the sea is the same saltiness everywhere.

The downside to this is that salinity is not uniform and is not the same all over the globe. Nice try though.

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/686-ocean-salinity

 

[godnotgod]

But in the waking state, there is a commonality of content that simply doesn't exist in the dreaming state. Our emotional reactions differ, but we can all agree there is a chair in a room. Yes, our senses are limited and our attention is directed, which means we ofen miss crucial aspects of the world around us, but there is still a common reality.

Now, you *claim* that there is another level where this reality becomes like a dream. I claim your experiences of this is just another dream. The differences again show it NOT to be a reality, but to be a figment of how our brains work, creating 'meaning' from nothingness.

'There is a chair in the room' in the dream, but not from the POV of Ultimate Reality. From the POV of Ultimate Reality, there is a form of what we call 'chair' in the room, a form having come from an idea. The form itself is in the mind, and the materiality of the chair is illusory, now documented by Quantum Physics. We only confirm materiality via the senses, which are limited and defective. Even science changes its mind from time to time, as how Quantum Physics has overturned the applecart of Newtonian 'billiard ball' Physics. BTY, it has now been confirmed, via science and lasers, that 'the chair in the room' is actually moving around.

That there is some commonality and relative permanence to things on the level of Waking Sleep is due to the fact that this 'reality' is simply an illusion of a higher caliber than the illusion of the dream-sleep level. The dream vanishes upon waking into this 'reality', but the 'material' Universe does NOT vanish when it's illusory appearance is detected, and awakening to the next higher level of consciousness occurs.

 

[Vinayaka]

If you are going to wait to see, you will never ever find out. Reality is staring you in the face, here, now, and at no other time. Ripeness is always at hand, and the Universe is always complete.

Yes, you're entitled to your POV, lol.

 

[godnotgod]

The downside to this is that salinity is not uniform and is not the same all over the globe. Nice try though.

https://www.sciencelearn.org.nz/resources/686-ocean-salinity

Ah, I was waiting for you to get caught in that sticky trap!

Think:

I am referring not to the AMOUNT of saltiness, but instead to the fact of saltiness itself. Once again:

"The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere"

Note that I did not say: "The amount of saltiness is the same everywhere"

Nice try, though.

 

[godnotgod]

Yes, you're entitled to your POV, lol.

It's not my POV. If it is, now please tell me at what other time you will come to realization if not in the here and now?

 

[Vinayaka]

It's not my POV. If it is, now please tell me at what other time you will come to realization if not in the here and now?

Yes, I have a choice ... listen to the teachings of my Guru, or to some stranger off the internet ... which one? hmmmm..., lol

 

[YmirGF]

Ah, I was waiting for you to get caught in that sticky trap!

Think:

I am referring not to the AMOUNT of saltiness, but instead to the fact of saltiness itself. Once again:

"The saltiness of the sea is the same everywhere"

Note that I did not say: "The amount of saltiness is the same everywhere"

Nice try, though.

That is commonly known as moving the goal posts. I'd say nice try, but it is more than a little lame.