Spirits vs Gods

[Sundance]

What state do you live in? I guess you can put Botanica store in your area and zip code and find a list in your area.

Here is the closest info I can find about Santero and Expiritismo: http://www.aboutsanteria.com

It's a good and easy read. From what you listed with the Yoruba, you probably know a bit more than I do.

Me, I live in Pennsylvania.

 

[Sundance]

Thanks dude @DJ_sXe

Absolutely!

 

[Jainarayan]

That makes sense. I do the same with family. I cant prove one hundred percent they exist objectively. Its a feeling and experience that they exist to me.

I probably wont understand how you define thunder as a god. I can see a spirit behind the force of thunder and that spirit and/or thunder can be diefied. Other than that, ya have me at a lost.1

This might help. The author does what I think is a better job of explaining the concept than I can. http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/pantheism/

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This might help. The author does what I think is a better job of explaining the concept than I can. http://norse-mythology.org/concepts/pantheism/

That's a good article. I understood it to the point of Christian theology. It was a little bias or negative. I like this: "To put it another way: the visible world is the flesh of the invisible gods." That would mean when I listen to thunder, that constriction of clouds, lighting, and rain together is actually a god? I do share pantheistic point of view when it comes to divinity. It is foreign, though, to call something visible a word commonly associated with the visible and then at the same time say that the visible is the invisible while the invisible is within the visible. (If that made sense?)

Is it like the visible is the invisible but only visible to the naked eye?

I hate to compare, but it sounds like the Eucharist (sorry, soft spot). The visible (bread/wine) IS the invisible, Jesus Christ he is not seen by the naked eye only by the visible, bread/wine.

The visible (thunder) IS the invisible, the Spirit (pantheist view), but the Spirit is not seen by the naked eye only AS rather than a symbol or metaphor of Thunder.

Is that a good comparison?

I would agree; though, it's an unsual way to refer to deities, I must say.

 

[Janardena]

Oh. I mean to put a question mark.

Kinda like God is more specifically a spirit without definition of any human attributes (for example, being human before his passing). He just exists?

I thought maybe that's what people mean by god, a deified spirit without first having human attributes. Separating human spirit and just making god a spirit and deifying him.

I honestly don't believe spirits exist without their human hosts. That is why it is confusing.

I think it is us (humans) that have attributes of God.

I think there are many concepts of God, from many people. But what is the scriptural definition of God. That is the question.
Regardless of our beliefs, I think we should put aside our ad-hoc conceptions, at least for the duration of trying to comprehend who and what God is, via scriptures.

When you say spirit do you mean ghost's, or aliens?
My comprehension of ''spirit'', is that it is a nature, one that is the opposite to material nature. For example, matter comes into being, whereas spirit does not. Matter will eventually disappear, whereas spirit does not.
The finite spiritual entity cannot act in the material atmosphere without a body (suit). This make a living entity, both spiritual and material natures.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think it is us (humans) that have attributes of God.

I think there are many concepts of God, from many people. But what is the scriptural definition of God. That is the question.
Regardless of our beliefs, I think we should put aside our ad-hoc conceptions, at least for the duration of trying to comprehend who and what God is, via scriptures.

When you say spirit do you mean ghost's, or aliens?
My comprehension of ''spirit'', is that it is a nature, one that is the opposite to material nature. For example, matter comes into being, whereas spirit does not. Matter will eventually disappear, whereas spirit does not.

The finite spiritual entity cannot act in the material atmosphere without a body (suit). This make a living entity, both spiritual and material natures.

We do differ both in language and in meaning of spirit. Ghosts, from what I gather from movies, are not like spirits who look like humans but are not. They are, in fictional terms, without any form. Like Casper, I guess. Aliens, well, that makes me think of the movie Aliens. Completely outside the ball park of how who not what a spirit is.

Without using biblical and any other holy scriptures, I base my definition off of personal experience both my experience and those my family and friends even tell me. I find that what we read in books are not the same as what we hear from people. I can read about Martin Luther King and his "I have a dream" speach but nothing beats actually talking to or even being there when he made it in front of hundreds.

I can't talk to people in any holy text nor can I talk to people in those text who have literally witnessed their god. All I can do is go off of what believers today; and, you see how varried their definitions are.



Spirit, to me, has two meanings. I guess I'll use lower case "spirit" and upper case "Spirit." A spirit is the breathe of life. It is what makes us go. This is put nicely in this quote I posted when I first came:

"God is in the food they ate, the water they drank, the air they breathed, the earth they trode and died on. He is in the speech they spoke, the dreams they dreamt, in the everywhere and the everything." The author says "some cultures don't even have a word for God; because, God is assumed. God is self-evidence. God is so present that God IS life itself"

That is spirit. Not to be deified but to be lived. (Not a God)

Spirit, upper case, is who we are. It is part of our human body. Our flesh. Our make up. When we pass away, our Spirit remains on earth. They are not ghosts. They stay on the land they passed or in the environment they passed. They stay to help family, to help friends, and to help all people willing to not only believe they exist (which is not needed) but to experience their existence.

Just like my family today, living. During our family get togethers (whenever we finally have them), they become me and I become a part of them. There is no separation because we are all blood.

Spirits are just the same. They are not defied. They are not gods. They are not worshiped. The are people.

No scripture I know talks about Spirits in this manner; and, that does not mean it isn't true. Many scriptural text talk about God being life from the Holy Spirit to Ka. Regardless, that seems pretty universal in the religious text from nivanna (the experience/one hundred percent understanding of rebirth) to the Tao. It's also seen outside of religiou context, from what is defined as wholeness, being one, love, and state of unity (which one does not need to be religious nor claim a religion to experience).

God is an experience. God is life. Why worship (get down on your knees, ritual, prayer To someone or something) life? Live it. Bow on your knees, ritual, and prayer to be One with God. Spirit is not a heirarchy experience. It's like a marriage. We don't worship our wives or husbands. Why do we God and Spirits?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Me, I live in Pennsylvania.

Hope this helps: http://m.yp.com/reading-pa/botanica

 

[rusra02]

Yes. There are things that exist without us knowing. In my opinion, god is not one of them. When I think of god, I think of a deified spirit. However, I never believed spirits can exist without having a human host. The Bible doesn't explain reality in and of itself. It explains the reality seen by its believers both in the Bible and outside of it. So, outside of opinion, it is not a good reference.

In general, though, how can a spirit exist without its human host? Anyone can say anything exist without us seeing it. Anyone can make that claim or opinion; however, that doesn't make it objectively true.

So both of us are just talking in opinions, claims, and beliefs not general reality as all people should know.

From that perspective, how does the Bible, sense that is the bases if your reality, define a spirit without a human host? When a Christian says "god is love", is love (or Love) walking around just as a human spirit? I believe spirits are visible. I have seen them and so have my family. I have never seen god or any person who mimics god of scripture. How can that spirit claim be true if the Bible describes it as experiences (Moses and the bush as well as God as an dove)?

Lots of questions. Biblical explanations does not make sense to me and I know that is a full thread just explaning from a biblical view. From your opinion, since opinions are easier to understand, how can a spirit exist wtihout its human host? If god is a spirit without a human host, what about this spirit lets you believe any believer should deify it? What about this spirit screams to you that it is a creator?

Spirits, to me, are just like humans. They have no heirarchy. They are not worshiped.

I am not surprised you haven't seen God. (John 1:18) Spirit sons of God, Angels, existed long before humans or even the earth, according to the Bible. (Job 38:4,7) They have no need of human bodies. Psalm 104:4 says of the true God; "He makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire." I believe these Angels are much stronger than we are. One angel destroyed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in a single night to protect God's people from attack. I think it is important to understand that some of these Angels rebelled against God and now seek to mislead people, just as Satan misled Eve. Revelation 12:9 describes Satan, the lead rebel, as the one 'misleading the entire inhabited earth.' I believe we need protection from these wicked spirits and that the true God provides protection for those who come to know him.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I am not surprised you haven't seen God. (John 1:18) Spirit sons of God, Angels, existed long before humans or even the earth, according to the Bible. (Job 38:4,7) They have no need of human bodies. Psalm 104:4 says of the true God; "He makes his angels spirits, His ministers a consuming fire." I believe these Angels are much stronger than we are. One angel destroyed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in a single night to protect God's people from attack. I think it is important to understand that some of these Angels rebelled against God and now seek to mislead people, just as Satan misled Eve. Revelation 12:9 describes Satan, the lead rebel, as the one 'misleading the entire inhabited earth.' I believe we need protection from these wicked spirits and that the true God provides protection for those who come to know him.

Biblical reference, as I say, does not help me. Opinions are easier to understand. In your interpretation of how you see spirit, how do you see spirits without human hosts? The bible and any person today (makes no difference where its said) can say something exist, that doesnt mean it is objectively true for others. (Aka its not a fact)

How can spirits exist without their human host?

Have you seen them as I have seen spirits with human hosts?

Is god a deified non human hosted spirit? Why deify spirit?

How does the bible confirm (not just say--very important difference) that a non hosted spirit exist unless You, Not the bible people, experienced it for yourself?

If so, tell us the experience if you are comfortable doing so?



Without using biblical and any other holy scriptures, I base my definition off of personal experience both my experience and those my family and friends even tell me. I find that what we read in books are not the same as what we hear from people. I can read about Martin LutherKing and his "I have a dream" speach but nothing beats actually talking to or even being there when he made it in front of hundreds.

If you have not, please read both posts in full before replying.

 

[Quintessence]

While they're not precisely synonyms to me, they end up being interchangeable because of the nature of my theology.

"Spirit" to me describes the essence and nature of a thing, including its tangible and intangible qualities. All things have a definable essence or nature... or have a spirit.
"Gods" to me describes the things I deem worthy of worship.
Because there is nothing I deem unworthy of worship, I deify everything. And as everything has a definable essence or nature, all spirits are gods and all gods have a spirit. So... yeah. Pretty much synonymous.

 

[Thief]

While they're not precisely synonyms to me, they end up being interchangeable because of the nature of my theology.

"Spirit" to me describes the essence and nature of a thing, including its tangible and intangible qualities. All things have a definable essence or nature... or have a spirit.
"Gods" to me describes the things I deem worthy of worship.
Because there is nothing I deem unworthy of worship, I deify everything. And as everything has a definable essence or nature, all spirits are gods and all gods have a spirit. So... yeah. Pretty much synonymous.

do you believe in afterlife?
isn't that were the bulk of 'spirit' is held?

 

[Quintessence]

do you believe in afterlife?

Not in the sense that you likely mean, no.

isn't that were the bulk of 'spirit' is held?

I would re-read that understanding of "spirit" I posted before. Regardless, not really my place to speculate.

 

[Thief]

Not in the sense that you likely mean, no.



I would re-read that understanding of "spirit" I posted before. Regardless, not really my place to speculate.

ok...but I don't get it....
you answer to a thread about spirit.....but then won't allow yourself to speculate.

what I got from your post is no line drawn....and you won't

the moon has as much spirit as the gravel in your driveway.

 

[Quintessence]

ok...but I don't get it....
you answer to a thread about spirit.....but then won't allow yourself to speculate.

Okay... you just asked me if I believed an afterlife, and I basically told you no. Then you ask a question directly related to a belief that I don't have, so... I should speculate on the implications of a belief I don't have for... what reason, exactly? The second question doesn't even apply to how I see things, so I can't really respond to it meaningfully.

what I got from your post is no line drawn....and you won't

Are you asking me to think hypothetically and from a perspective other than my own? I can do that, though I'm unsure as to the purpose within the context of this thread. Keep in mind my initial response in this thread was directed to the OP, which means it describes my perspective.

the moon has as much spirit as the gravel in your driveway.

Well... yeah. But I don't have gravel in my driveway, sadly. Don't live in the country, so I'm stuck with concrete. Sometimes I make it pretty with chalk drawings on it, though. ;D

 

[Thief]

Well... yeah. But I don't have gravel in my driveway, sadly. Don't live in the country, so I'm stuck with concrete. Sometimes I make it pretty with chalk drawings on it, though. ;D

Only this can I retort.....as the other portions of your post have no line drawn.

does the concrete have spirit?......it's man made.

 

[rusra02]

Biblical reference, as I say, does not help me. Opinions are easier to understand. In your interpretation of how you see spirit, how do you see spirits without human hosts? The bible and any person today (makes no difference where its said) can say something exist, that doesnt mean it is objectively true for others. (Aka its not a fact)

How can spirits exist without their human host?

Have you seen them as I have seen spirits with human hosts?

Is god a deified non human hosted spirit? Why deify spirit?

How does the bible confirm (not just say--very important difference) that a non hosted spirit exist unless You, Not the bible people, experienced it for yourself?

If so, tell us the experience if you are comfortable doing so?



Without using biblical and any other holy scriptures, I base my definition off of personal experience both my experience and those my family and friends even tell me. I find that what we read in books are not the same as what we hear from people. I can read about Martin LutherKing and his "I have a dream" speach but nothing beats actually talking to or even being there when he made it in front of hundreds.

If you have not, please read both posts in full before replying.

I do not believe one can safely accept what another person says, unless one knows that person to be honest and reliable. Similarly, personal experience can be unreliable, especially if we are being misled by someone. Con artists, grafters, and thieves are often extremely convincing. I believe it is similar with wicked spirits, who portray themselves as benefactors but who are only interested in exploiting their victims. (2 Corinthians 11:14) My study of the Bible convinces me that the true God is honest and trustworthy. I think we can do no better than listen to him rather than our opinions or those of others. We are so easily misled if we rely on our own thinking and feelings.(Jeremiah 17:9)

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I do not believe one can safely accept what another person says, unless one knows that person to be honest and reliable. Similarly, personal experience can be unreliable, especially if we are being misled by someone. Con artists, grafters, and thieves are often extremely convincing. I believe it is similar with wicked spirits, who portray themselves as benefactors but who are only interested in exploiting their victims. (2 Corinthians 11:14) My study of the Bible convinces me that the true God is honest and trustworthy. I think we can do no better than listen to him rather than our opinions or those of others. We are so easily misled if we rely on our own thinking and feelings.(Jeremiah 17:9)

I see people in the bible the same as people today who believe in it. Since I do not practice Christianity, I trust that believers (yourself included) are telling what is true to the best of their knowledge as well as people in scripture.

Separating yourself from people in scripture and saying that some of the believers can be unreliable just tells me your opinion that I cannot trust believers. It also gives me the impression that if someone tells me they are Christian, maybe I should question their claim. That is completely disrespectful. If you and half the other generation together say you are Christian, who am I to judge? That, and there are so many different opinions (or beliefs) about what Christianity is, that to say anyone has a fact or a truth is completely illogical.

Unless everyone says one thing in unison, I can only judge what they say is true from their point of view if they tell me their point of view. I read scripture and know people in scripture's point of view, that does not tell me yours.

Unless your point of view IS scripture; then you'd have to explain your point not just post a verse (not saying you didn't just in general for all Christians)

Please read this in full.

 

[Quintessence]

Only this can I retort.....as the other portions of your post have no line drawn.

does the concrete have spirit?......it's man made.

Everything has a spirit, or an essence or nature. Whether or not humans manipulated it is irrelevant. Considering we exist within an interconnected weave, it's rather impossible for something on this planet to not have in some way been impacted by humans. All the oxygen molecules in the atmosphere have at some point been taken into and been part of a human. And a tree. And rabbits. And lots of other stuff.

 

[Thief]

Everything has a spirit, or an essence or nature. Whether or not humans manipulated it is irrelevant. Considering we exist within an interconnected weave, it's rather impossible for something on this planet to not have in some way been impacted by humans. All the oxygen molecules in the atmosphere have at some point been taken into and been part of a human. And a tree. And rabbits. And lots of other stuff.

granted.

but as you know, I have great belief this life is a formation of spirit.
It forms as we grow in experience, firm our thoughts in reflection.

when the clay hardens and breaks.....the spirit we have become stands forth.

 

[Mindmaster]

Only this can I retort.....as the other portions of your post have no line drawn.

does the concrete have spirit?......it's man made.

Typically, yes...

Most concrete is actually mashed large rock, but most rock spirits are more like "clones" if you get my drift. They're really the children of what is the earth spirit proper -- but rocks can only break into smaller rocks... Many man-made things are actually "combinations" of earth, water, and even plant spirits. Just imagine a bunch of them living in a small space and you got it...

Anyway, earth spirits are the easiest to experience even if you largely ignore them. It's reason we get that "homey" feel with the land and get defensive of it wherever we live. We learn to empathize with it naturally even IF we don't actually believe in these things. In essence, we are experiencing them no matter what we do -- and we tend to psychically link to them nearly 99% of the time.

If you pay attention to the differences in nature, and where you live you can feel these differences yourself.