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Speed of Light and the Age of the Universe

ecco

Veteran Member
I have run into many highly intelligent atheists, many in this forum, who believe and say that abiogenesis is fact.

Thank you for referring to me as highly intelligent.

We are talking about a belief based in faith. Tell them so, and they say science is not based in faith.

And now you have again resorted to (how to put this politely) stretching the truth.

There is no blind belief involved! Period.

4.54 billion years ago, there was no life on this very inhospitable planet. Today there is life on this same comparatively hospitable planet. Undoubtedly, unquestionably, abiogenesis occurred.

There are only two possible alternatives by which this could have happened:
  1. A supernatural entity created life.
  2. Live emerged by an as yet unknown natural process.
Rational people choose to accept number 2. There is no "belief based in faith" involved. If you want to continue to believe that Thor throws lightning bolts, then that is what you will do.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
I keep abreast as much as I can with current abiogenesis research, because I know if it can be reasonably established I will have to change part of my world view.
Nonsense. You will never believe in abiogenesis any more than you believe in evolution - for the same reason - your religious indoctrination.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Many atheist believers in abiogenesis are coming to the point where they believe the bio chemical approach is the wrong track.
They find that the cumulative odds at each step of the process make it virtually impossible. They are becoming vocal in the abiogenesis research field.

They are looking for something else as a way to abiogenesis.


Who is they? Are they researchers? How do you know they are atheists?
Can you list a few and show that their writings that support your assertions?

Please feel free to answer.

Alternatively, you can duck and dodge and evade as you usually do.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Tripe.

Not sure if you have a grasp of what time and space is, and how millions of years of time for light travel involves time existing out there? Ha.
That's too unintelligible to respond to.
 

dad

Undefeated
That's too unintelligible to respond to.
For lurkers..what the poster is feigning (?) Ignorance about is that it takes time for light from stars to reach earth. They claim billions of years in many cases. I have asked if we know that time as we know it even exists in deep space. If it does not OR if science doesn't know...no claims can be made that anything out there involves millions or billions of our years here!
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
You still don’t understand basic science.

A hypothesis is a proposed explanation, like a draft paper, not an accepted explanation. The only requirement for a hypothesis is that the explanation must be “falsifiable”.

The hypothesis hasn’t been accepted or rejected yet, because you probably have started testing yet, or it is still undergoing testing.

Falsifiability means that the hypothesis have the potential of being tested.

A hypothesis isn’t science (eg to reach the status of “Scientific Theory”), because it require to pass 2 other requirements, (A) the testing stage (plus analysis of the evidence or test results) of Scientific Method, and (B) the Peer Review.

The actual testing in Scientific Method, will determine if the hypothesis is -
  1. “true” and “probable”, hence “verified”
  2. or is “false” and “improbable”, hence “refuted”.
The tests required observations in the forms of either evidence or test results from experiments.

Anyway, Abiogenesis isn’t science or a accepted scientific theory. Abiogenesis is still a falsifiable and working hypothesis, but haven’t been fully and rigorously tested; meaning, it needs more evidence before it is rejected as improbable or accepted as probable.

So “No, shmogie”, Abiogenesis isn’t true, because it is still undergoing testing as a hypothesis.

Second, and lastly, science doesn’t prove or disprove any hypothesis. Again, you don’t understand science. Science test a potential hypothesis or the current theory through observations, eg observation are either evidence or experiment, any data that can be obtained from the evidence or experiment (eg data such as measurements, quantities, etc).

Proving means constructing a logical mathematical model or finding a mathematical solution (proof), and these models often come in forms of equations, formulas or constants.

Science is more than just equations and numbers. Science relies on evidence and observation, something that can observe, quantify, measure, compare, test or verify/refute.

You are confusing proof with evidence. Scientists test, refute or verify a hypothesis, mathematicians prove or disprove equations.

It is actually time to stop feeding bananas to the Trolls. Respond to the science and not the trolls.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The point being that abiogenesis is far from being falsifiable.

Many atheist believers in abiogenesis are coming to the point where they believe the bio chemical approach is the wrong track. The track that has been accepted for a century.
shmogie, you are still misunderstanding what falsifiable mean in science. You seem to be confusing falsifiability with explanation (eg model, hypothesis or theory) being “true” or being “fact”.

That’s wrong.

The only way to actually determine which explanation is true or false, it is when carrying out the testing and analysing the evidence or the data acquired from the evidence.

Falsifiability occurred BEFORE the testing and analysing stages of Scientific Method, which tests is the practice or the physical works.

Falsifiability is about logically assessing the explanation to see if it capable of being tested, to conceive of ways to put the explanation to the test.

If, for instance, you thought of ways for explanation (eg hypothesis) to be tested, at future date, then the hypothesis is “falsifiable”.

But if you cannot conceive of ways to test (at future date), then the hypothesis is “unfalsifiable”.​

One way to determine if a hypothesis is falsifiable or not falsifiable, is to look and read if there are instructions within the hypothesis, like instruction on to set up experiments in the controlled environment of lab, or instruction on how, where and when to find evidence in the field, thus fieldwork (uncontrolled environment).

If there are no such instructions in the hypothesis, then the hypothesis isn’t a hypothesis, because it is unfalsifiable.

You are wrong about Abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is already falsifiable, since experiments have already been performed, the first experiment being Miller-Urey experiment (1952), where they have successfully convert a number of inorganic matters into organic matters - amino acids.

Amino acids are ones of the organic compounds that proteins are made of.

Since then, other gas molecules were added and used in other experiments by other biochemists. The Miller-Urey experiment didn’t include gases that would exist in the Earth atmosphere as the results of frequent volcanic activities. These other experiments have successfully used these other gases.

But these experiments only relate to the sources of life came from Earth. There have been evidence that amino acid can survive in asteroids and meteorites and comets.

In 1969, over 90 different amino acids were found on the Murchison meteorite.

With each of these evidence or experiments, Abiogenesis is already falsifiable.

While it is true, that Abiogenesis experiments haven’t created life from inorganic matters, but these experiments have successfully created organic compounds with inorganic matters.

Life cannot exist without organic compounds, so recreating conditions where organic matters (such as amino acids and proteins) can exist, is the step in the right direction for Abiogenesis.

You are forgetting that science involved progress and accumulation of knowledges, that often take time to find the evidence...sometimes it can take centuries, or even millennia.

Take for example, astronomy. It was thought the entire universe consisted of this Earth and some couple of thousands objects (stars, planets, moon) close by, and can be seen with the naked eyes. Most of the objects were mostly stars within a very tiny portion of the Milky Way. Even with the earlier telescopes before the 20th century, astronomers can only see limited numbers of stars, and Andromeda and Triangulum and some few other objects were thought to be nebulas, not separate galaxies. It is only when they finished constructing the largest telescope at that time, the 1919’s Hooker Telescope, that Edwin Hubble discovered these were galaxies, not nebulas. As more powerful telescopes were built more galaxies were found.

My point is that you cannot dismiss something just because of your personal belief. Abiogenesis may have not unlock all the mysteries about the earliest life, but it is a step in the right direction. And is using known knowledge of biology and biochemistry to piece together a natural phenomena.

With the Bible, it stated that god created Adam from the dust of the earth, breath on the man-shaped dust and gave life.You cannot turn dust into living and conscious adult man, it is highly improbable and it is impossible in the real world. That (creation of Adam) is magical or supernatural, and a myth.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
shmogie, you are still misunderstanding what falsifiable mean in science. You seem to be confusing falsifiability with explanation (eg model, hypothesis or theory) being “true” or being “fact”.

That’s wrong.

The only way to actually determine which explanation is true or false, it is when carrying out the testing and analysing the evidence or the data acquired from the evidence.

Falsifiability occurred BEFORE the testing and analysing stages of Scientific Method, which tests is the practice or the physical works.

Falsifiability is about logically assessing the explanation to see if it capable of being tested, to conceive of ways to put the explanation to the test.

If, for instance, you thought of ways for explanation (eg hypothesis) to be tested, at future date, then the hypothesis is “falsifiable”.

But if you cannot conceive of ways to test (at future date), then the hypothesis is “unfalsifiable”.​

One way to determine if a hypothesis is falsifiable or not falsifiable, is to look and read if there are instructions within the hypothesis, like instruction on to set up experiments in the controlled environment of lab, or instruction on how, where and when to find evidence in the field, thus fieldwork (uncontrolled environment).

If there are no such instructions in the hypothesis, then the hypothesis isn’t a hypothesis, because it is unfalsifiable.

You are wrong about Abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is already falsifiable, since experiments have already been performed, the first experiment being Miller-Urey experiment (1952), where they have successfully convert a number of inorganic matters into organic matters - amino acids.

Amino acids are ones of the organic compounds that proteins are made of.

Since then, other gas molecules were added and used in other experiments by other biochemists. The Miller-Urey experiment didn’t include gases that would exist in the Earth atmosphere as the results of frequent volcanic activities. These other experiments have successfully used these other gases.

But these experiments only relate to the sources of life came from Earth. There have been evidence that amino acid can survive in asteroids and meteorites and comets.

In 1969, over 90 different amino acids were found on the Murchison meteorite.

With each of these evidence or experiments, Abiogenesis is already falsifiable.

While it is true, that Abiogenesis experiments haven’t created life from inorganic matters, but these experiments have successfully created organic compounds with inorganic matters.

Life cannot exist without organic compounds, so recreating conditions where organic matters (such as amino acids and proteins) can exist, is the step in the right direction for Abiogenesis.

You are forgetting that science involved progress and accumulation of knowledges, that often take time to find the evidence...sometimes it can take centuries, or even millennia.

Take for example, astronomy. It was thought the entire universe consisted of this Earth and some couple of thousands objects (stars, planets, moon) close by, and can be seen with the naked eyes. Most of the objects were mostly stars within a very tiny portion of the Milky Way. Even with the earlier telescopes before the 20th century, astronomers can only see limited numbers of stars, and Andromeda and Triangulum and some few other objects were thought to be nebulas, not separate galaxies. It is only when they finished constructing the largest telescope at that time, the 1919’s Hooker Telescope, that Edwin Hubble discovered these were galaxies, not nebulas. As more powerful telescopes were built more galaxies were found.

My point is that you cannot dismiss something just because of your personal belief. Abiogenesis may have not unlock all the mysteries about the earliest life, but it is a step in the right direction. And is using known knowledge of biology and biochemistry to piece together a natural phenomena.

With the Bible, it stated that god created Adam from the dust of the earth, breath on the man-shaped dust and gave life.You cannot turn dust into living and conscious adult man, it is highly improbable and it is impossible in the real world. That (creation of Adam) is magical or supernatural, and a myth.

Your going to a lot of effort to feed the Trolls
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
shmogie, you are still misunderstanding what falsifiable mean in science. You seem to be confusing falsifiability with explanation (eg model, hypothesis or theory) being “true” or being “fact”.

That’s wrong.

The only way to actually determine which explanation is true or false, it is when carrying out the testing and analysing the evidence or the data acquired from the evidence.

Falsifiability occurred BEFORE the testing and analysing stages of Scientific Method, which tests is the practice or the physical works.

Falsifiability is about logically assessing the explanation to see if it capable of being tested, to conceive of ways to put the explanation to the test.

If, for instance, you thought of ways for explanation (eg hypothesis) to be tested, at future date, then the hypothesis is “falsifiable”.

But if you cannot conceive of ways to test (at future date), then the hypothesis is “unfalsifiable”.​

One way to determine if a hypothesis is falsifiable or not falsifiable, is to look and read if there are instructions within the hypothesis, like instruction on to set up experiments in the controlled environment of lab, or instruction on how, where and when to find evidence in the field, thus fieldwork (uncontrolled environment).

If there are no such instructions in the hypothesis, then the hypothesis isn’t a hypothesis, because it is unfalsifiable.

You are wrong about Abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is already falsifiable, since experiments have already been performed, the first experiment being Miller-Urey experiment (1952), where they have successfully convert a number of inorganic matters into organic matters - amino acids.

Amino acids are ones of the organic compounds that proteins are made of.

Since then, other gas molecules were added and used in other experiments by other biochemists. The Miller-Urey experiment didn’t include gases that would exist in the Earth atmosphere as the results of frequent volcanic activities. These other experiments have successfully used these other gases.

But these experiments only relate to the sources of life came from Earth. There have been evidence that amino acid can survive in asteroids and meteorites and comets.

In 1969, over 90 different amino acids were found on the Murchison meteorite.

With each of these evidence or experiments, Abiogenesis is already falsifiable.

While it is true, that Abiogenesis experiments haven’t created life from inorganic matters, but these experiments have successfully created organic compounds with inorganic matters.

Life cannot exist without organic compounds, so recreating conditions where organic matters (such as amino acids and proteins) can exist, is the step in the right direction for Abiogenesis.

You are forgetting that science involved progress and accumulation of knowledges, that often take time to find the evidence...sometimes it can take centuries, or even millennia.

Take for example, astronomy. It was thought the entire universe consisted of this Earth and some couple of thousands objects (stars, planets, moon) close by, and can be seen with the naked eyes. Most of the objects were mostly stars within a very tiny portion of the Milky Way. Even with the earlier telescopes before the 20th century, astronomers can only see limited numbers of stars, and Andromeda and Triangulum and some few other objects were thought to be nebulas, not separate galaxies. It is only when they finished constructing the largest telescope at that time, the 1919’s Hooker Telescope, that Edwin Hubble discovered these were galaxies, not nebulas. As more powerful telescopes were built more galaxies were found.

My point is that you cannot dismiss something just because of your personal belief. Abiogenesis may have not unlock all the mysteries about the earliest life, but it is a step in the right direction. And is using known knowledge of biology and biochemistry to piece together a natural phenomena.

With the Bible, it stated that god created Adam from the dust of the earth, breath on the man-shaped dust and gave life.You cannot turn dust into living and conscious adult man, it is highly improbable and it is impossible in the real world. That (creation of Adam) is magical or supernatural, and a myth.
Miller Urey ? That is a bizarre example of evidence for abiogenesis. A few amino acids, in an atmosphere considered completely wrong today.

Amino acids aren´ life, they carry no information, very specific acids and proteins carry out the instructions of DNA through RNA in operating the machinery of a cell. The 9 as a result of Miller Urey are meaningless. Miller in a recent interview admits the experiment was a failure.

My personal belief is irrelevant, either there is evidence that has value, or there is not. For the 8 ideas of abiogenesis, the evidence is paltry. ¨the right direction¨ is as subjective an evaluation that you can make until the objective is achieved.

There is no knowledge of the process of abiogenesis, there are extremely faint glimmerings of something, its value, itś meaning is unknown.

Apparently you failed to follow through on the lead I gave you regarding the current turmoil in the abiogenesis ranks regarding the research.

Not unexpected. Abiogenesis is one of those areas where once success or progress is proclaimed, it stands as such regardless of subsequent facts. Like you using Miller Urey as an example of success.

You believe as you choose, with very little evidence, that is fine with me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Miller Urey ? That is a bizarre example of evidence for abiogenesis. A few amino acids, in an atmosphere considered completely wrong today.

Amino acids aren´ life, they carry no information, very specific acids and proteins carry out the instructions of DNA through RNA in operating the machinery of a cell. The 9 as a result of Miller Urey are meaningless. Miller in a recent interview admits the experiment was a failure.

My personal belief is irrelevant, either there is evidence that has value, or there is not. For the 8 ideas of abiogenesis, the evidence is paltry. ¨the right direction¨ is as subjective an evaluation that you can make until the objective is achieved.

There is no knowledge of the process of abiogenesis, there are extremely faint glimmerings of something, its value, itś meaning is unknown.

Apparently you failed to follow through on the lead I gave you regarding the current turmoil in the abiogenesis ranks regarding the research.

Not unexpected. Abiogenesis is one of those areas where once success or progress is proclaimed, it stands as such regardless of subsequent facts. Like you using Miller Urey as an example of success.

You believe as you choose, with very little evidence, that is fine with me.
You are ignoring the fact that the Miller-Urey experiment has been reproduced with several possible atmospheres. They all produce amino acids. So like it or not it was a success. And your lack of knowledge of this tells us that your information on abiogenesis is at least 50 years behind the times. By shooting yourself in the foot so badly you make the rest of your claims about abiogenesis irrelevant since you clearly have no idea how far the sciences has advanced.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Miller Urey ? That is a bizarre example of evidence for abiogenesis. A few amino acids, in an atmosphere considered completely wrong today.

Amino acids aren´ life, they carry no information, very specific acids and proteins carry out the instructions of DNA through RNA in operating the machinery of a cell. The 9 as a result of Miller Urey are meaningless. Miller in a recent interview admits the experiment was a failure.
Pay attention. I didn't say "life".

I wrote the experiment converted inorganic matters into organic matters, I didn't say it converted into life.

And I didn't say amino acids are life, I only said these were organic compounds, that played important part in proteins.

I am no expert in biology.

What do you think skins, tissues, muscles, brains, livers, kidneys, and other organs are made of? They are made of proteins. And proteins means there are amino acids.

Without proteins, there would be no hearts and no brains, no muscles and no skins.

Of all the molecules in the human body, about 65% of our body mass is water, and about 20% are proteins, followed by fat (lipids) at 12%.

Do you know how much percent of mass for DNA? You would expect more, but it is only 0.1%?

Water (H20) is very important for life, but it is inorganic, and yet we have 65% of water.

So proteins are the 2nd most abundant molecules in the human body, but the most abundant of organic matters. Proteins are even found in our blood cells, as it is part of the cell membrane.

Proteins are found in many parts (all tissues and organs are made out of specific proteins) of our body, therefore amino acids exist too.

Without organic matters, like amino acids, there can be no proteins, and if there are no proteins there can be no life.

Do you think there can be life without amino acids?

Amino acids are building block for all known proteins.

One for sure, organic matters are not made out of dust, which is what the Bible say.

Dust are byproduct waste that can be organic or inorganic, and there are certainly no life in dust. If dust come from organic matters, then it is dead waste.

Clearly the author(s) of Genesis doesn't understand biology.
 
Last edited:

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Pay attention. I didn't say "life".

I wrote the experiment converted inorganic matters into organic matters, I didn't say it converted into life.

And I didn't say amino acids are life, I only said these were organic compounds, that played important part in proteins.

I am no expert in biology.

What do you think skins, tissues, muscles, brains, livers, kidneys, and other organs are made of? They are made of proteins. And proteins means there are amino acids.

Without proteins, there would be no hearts and brains.

Of all the molecules in the human body, about 65% of our body mass is water, and about 20% are proteins, followed by fat (lipids) at 12%.

Do you know how much percent of mass for DNA? You would expect more, but it is only 0.1%?

Water (H20) is very important for life, but it is inorganic, and yet we have 65% of water.

So proteins are the 2nd most abundant molecules in the human body, but the most abundant of organic matters. Proteins are even found in our blood cells, as it is part of the cell membrane.

Proteins are found in many parts (all tissues and organs are made out of specific proteins) of our body, therefore amino acids exist too.

Without organic matters, like amino acids, there can be no proteins, and if there are no proteins there can be no life.

Do you think there can be life without amino acids?

Amino acids are building block for all known proteins.

One for sure, organic matters are not made out of dust, which is what the Bible say.

Dust are byproduct waste that can be organic or inorganic, and there are certainly no life in dust. If dust come from organic matters, then it is dead waste.

Clearly the author(s) of Genesis doesn't understand biology.
9 amino acids produced in an intelligently designed experiment thatś design is considered flawed re atmosphere means little. Amino acids to proteins to information to a living organism is a bridge too far, it is imaginary, a belief based in faith.

You keep implying that I haven heard every argument you are making, and that I don´t understand the biology at the cellular level, the level a precursor organism would have to function. I understand the basics quite well, and have resources for what I may not understand.

You seem to worry way to much about the Bible, I haven´t mentioned it once, nor have I mentioned supernatural creation, except as the only other viable option.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
9 amino acids produced in an intelligently designed experiment thatś design is considered flawed re atmosphere means little. Amino acids to proteins to information to a living organism is a bridge too far, it is imaginary, a belief based in faith.

You keep implying that I haven heard every argument you are making, and that I don´t understand the biology at the cellular level, the level a precursor organism would have to function. I understand the basics quite well, and have resources for what I may not understand.

You seem to worry way to much about the Bible, I haven´t mentioned it once, nor have I mentioned supernatural creation, except as the only other viable option.

It is apparent that you have failed in biology, and science in general, because you continue to don’t understand, that being able to find evidence and being able to perform experiments are not relying on blind faith.

I was going to give you the benefits of doubts, but it has become quite obvious that your silly arguments are exactly the same as that of dad, with weak arguments trying to turn scientific research into religion and faith.

So it is apparent that you are that troll that shunyadragon warned me about not to feed, I should have listened.

You are the type of creationists who cannot and will not from their mistakes, nor willing to learn science without twisting everything into a religious pissing contests.

I have only mentioned the Miller-Urey experiment being the first experiment to convert inorganic compounds into organic compound, amino acids, which are the building block of proteins which are essential for life, because most organic matters in any living organism, including humans, have some types of proteins in their bodies.

And as I stated there have been experiments performed since then. some were successful, some were failures.

But the facts that any experiment can be performed at all, demonstrated that Abiogenesis is falsifiable, testable, so shmogie, there are no faith involved.

Many of these experiments, particularly the successful ones, are public records in the scientific community.

But if you think these experiments are based on blind faith, then demonstrated it, by showing me your scientific evidence or scientific sources that debunked Abiogenesis.

Do you understand the importance of amino acids, don’t you?

Without amino acids in proteins, then there are no tissues, no organs, no catalyzing metabolism reactions, no DNA duplication.

Proteins have many physiological functions, and the ways to what these functions are, are determined by the sequencing of amino acids within the proteins.

If you cannot and will not learn the science and importance of amino acids, then I am not going to waste any more time with you.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
You seem to worry way to much about the Bible, I haven´t mentioned it once, nor have I mentioned supernatural creation, except as the only other viable option.
You have misunderstood what I am saying.

If there is anything that required blind faith, is the creation of Adam, eg turning dust magically into living human being. Believing in Genesis creation as true, is example of blind faith.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Miller Urey ? That is a bizarre example of evidence for abiogenesis. A few amino acids, in an atmosphere considered completely wrong today.

Amino acids aren´ life, they carry no information, very specific acids and proteins carry out the instructions of DNA through RNA in operating the machinery of a cell. The 9 as a result of Miller Urey are meaningless. Miller in a recent interview admits the experiment was a failure.

My personal belief is irrelevant, either there is evidence that has value, or there is not. For the 8 ideas of abiogenesis, the evidence is paltry. ¨the right direction¨ is as subjective an evaluation that you can make until the objective is achieved.

There is no knowledge of the process of abiogenesis, there are extremely faint glimmerings of something, its value, itś meaning is unknown.

Apparently you failed to follow through on the lead I gave you regarding the current turmoil in the abiogenesis ranks regarding the research.

Not unexpected. Abiogenesis is one of those areas where once success or progress is proclaimed, it stands as such regardless of subsequent facts. Like you using Miller Urey as an example of success.

You believe as you choose, with very little evidence, that is fine with me.

Nevermind that amino acids have been branded "too complex to occur naturally" by creationists.
It doesn't even matter if the atmosphere was reflective of early earth or not.

The fact that amino acids spontanously formed, shows how the usual creationist arguments from ignorance and incredulity are just too stupid to repeat.

And I love how now in this post you are pointing at how abiogenesis is unknown as if it is some kind of argument for your creationist position. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so emberassing.

ps: we even find amino acids in space rocks.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
9 amino acids produced in an intelligently designed experiment

Ow boy................................................................

This is the equivalent of saying that the north pole is "intelligently designed" because ice forms in freezers that we created. :rolleyes:


Ever heared of "controlled conditions"?

You seem to worry way to much about the Bible, I haven´t mentioned it once, nor have I mentioned supernatural creation,

Please dude. We all know what your motivation is for arguing against established science.
Who do you take us for?

except as the only other viable option.

Your creationist nonsense is about as viable as universe-farting space unicorns.
 
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