Something that I want to talk about with all atheists about science and God.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think it would be cool if science one day proved jesus is real.Because then I think it would make atheists want to pray to jesus more.When I think of all the atheists that are dying without christ it makes me cry.

If you don't care enough to make an effort to listen to these atheists, understand why they don't accept Christ, and work to address their objections, then I'm inclined to take your crying as crocodile tears.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I think it would be cool if science one day proved jesus is real.Because then I think it would make atheists want to pray to jesus more.When I think of all the atheists that are dying without christ it makes me cry.

Proving a guy is one thing. I'll admit Jesus existed if it is proven scientifically and published through pure review. The legit peer review incidentally. Not made up ones like answers in Genesis did when they made up their own fake journal and said it was legitimate. In their eyes perhaps.

Proving the supernatural however is impossible. You can't prove what just isn't there.

 

[columbus]

I can understand where you are coming from. I can see it as a possibility.

Honestly, the Muslim version of the story makes a lot more sense.

It explains why nobody knew where Jesus's tomb could be found. And, even more importantly, nobody remembered where Jesus Ascended to Heaven. That would seem crucially important to me, but according to the NT nobody thought that important enough to record despite the detailed story about the Nativity.

Jesus was clever enough to outsmart his Roman executioners, and so there is no tomb or Ascension place, makes vastly more sense than the idea that Jesus rose from the dead and Ascended a few weeks later but nobody remembered where any of this happened.

Kinda like the premise that guys like Adam, Moses, and Samuel were very familiar with God, but had no idea that He had a son Jesus much less another Divine Person(Holy Ghost).
That's just not plausible, to me. It looks entirely like really old fiction. Greek fiction. Gods having babies with human women was a regular feature of Greek mythology. And S/Paul was quite Hellenistic.
Fiction.
Tom

 

[ChristineM]

This seems like making random accusations to me.

JC being an illegitimate son of a Roman soldier? Where did you get that from?

I understand that one can say he was a zealot but it is unlikely based on the evidence that we do have. Or at least from evidence that I have seen.

From the Talmud which identifies Yeshu as son of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera

See also the references in jesus the terrorist by peter cresswell
The invention of jesus, same author
That Holy Anarchist: Reflections on Christianity & Anarchism by Mark Van Steenwyk
In Search of Jesus the Anarchist by Paul Dordal

And several more books that offer as much, or more evidence than the bible.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Honestly, the Muslim version of the story makes a lot more sense.

It explains why nobody knew where Jesus's tomb could be found. And, even more importantly, nobody remembered where Jesus Ascended to Heaven. That would seem crucially important to me, but according to the NT nobody thought that important enough to record despite the detailed story about the Nativity.

Jesus was clever enough to outsmart his Roman executioners, and so there is no tomb or Ascension place, makes vastly more sense than the idea that Jesus rose from the dead and Ascended a few weeks later but nobody remembered where any of this happened.

Kinda like the premise that guys like Adam, Moses, and Samuel were very familiar with God, but had no idea that He had a son Jesus much less another Divine Person(Holy Ghost).
That's just not plausible, to me. It looks entirely like really old fiction.
Fiction.
Tom

The muslim version of the Jesus death obviously makes more sense because it eliminates the miracles out of the narrative. Miracles by definition don't make sense.

I think that Jesus was actually crucified and died and because of that they had to make a story up about him. I don't think he outsmarted anybody because there is no record of him later on. Like where did he escape to?

As for the Old Testament guys knowing that God had a Son, I think that whole theology is an invention by Christians based on the henotheism of the OT. There is a book by a jewish scholar, Benjamin Somer, called "The Bodies of God", which reveals that early Jews actually believed that God existed in multiple bodies and could manifest in material form on earth. A good example is God appearing as a man to Abraham before Soddom and Gomorrah gets destroyed, and eating with him. The man is actually called YHWH. So the idea that Jesus is God is taking that concept a step further. I certainly believe that the first Christians were confused about who Jesus was in relation to God.

 

[Samael_Khan]

From the Talmud which identifies Yeshu as son of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera

See also the references in jesus the terrorist by peter cresswell
The invention of jesus, same author
That Holy Anarchist: Reflections on Christianity & Anarchism by Mark Van Steenwyk
In Search of Jesus the Anarchist by Paul Dordal

And several more books that offer as much, or more evidence than the bible.

I hope I find those books somewhere.

 

[Darkforbid]

From the Talmud which identifies Yeshu as son of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera

See also the references in jesus the terrorist by peter cresswell
The invention of jesus, same author
That Holy Anarchist: Reflections on Christianity & Anarchism by Mark Van Steenwyk
In Search of Jesus the Anarchist by Paul Dordal

And several more books that offer as much, or more evidence than the bible.

'From the Talmud which identifies Yeshu as son of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera'

The Talmud just states "Yeshu Ben Pantera". Pantera was far from uncommon among Legionnaires at that time

 

[columbus]

I think that Jesus was actually crucified and died and because of that they had to make a story up about him.

So do I.
That's what I believe happened.

But there are many versions of the Jesus story.
I see the most likely as being "Jesus was a terrorist and people told other stories afterwards."
What I was getting at was that of the various interpretations of the NT, the traditional Christian interpretation is nearly the least plausible. There are somewhat more plausible ones, like a common interpretation I've heard from Muslims. Better than the Councils of Nicea or Trent or whatever, but not too plausible either.
Tom

 

[ChristineM]

I hope I find those books somewhere.

They are available on Amazon and Google books.

 

[ChristineM]

'From the Talmud which identifies Yeshu as son of Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera'

The Talmud just states "Yeshu Ben Pantera". Pantera was far from uncommon among Legionnaires at that time

Read and learn
Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia

 

[Samael_Khan]

So do I.
That's what I believe happened.

But there are many versions of the Jesus story.
I see the most likely as being "Jesus was a terrorist and people told other stories afterwards."
What I was getting at was that of the various interpretations of the NT, the traditional Christian interpretation is nearly the least plausible. There are somewhat more plausible ones, like a common interpretation I've heard from Muslims. Better than the Councils of Nicea or Trent or whatever, but not too plausible either.
Tom

I agree. I think the Gnostics are even less plausible though because they say that Jesus was just a spirit and he was never a man to begin with.

The funny thing about the muslim interpretation is that they only started using it once they realised that the quran contradicted the Bible. So they had to make excuses. There arguments are generally taken from scholars like Bart Ehrman.

 

[Samael_Khan]

They are available on Amazon and Google books.

Thanks

 

[ChristineM]

I think that Jesus was actually crucified and died

I believe he was crucified for his crimes but survived, possibly by a guard being bribed, possibly by being so near death it made little difference to the guard. Whatever, he recovered and was seen around town before succumbing to blood poisoning

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I believe he was crucified for his crimes but survived, possibly by a guard being bribed, possibly by being so near death it made little difference to the guard. Whatever, he recovered and was seen around town before succumbing to blood poisoning

... or he really was dead. The earliest versions of the story don't describe him being seen alive after being crucified.

 

[ChristineM]

... or he really was dead. The earliest versions of the story don't describe him being seen alive after being crucified.

I find that doubtful if he was seen walking a few days after. But describing him as being dead makes a great miracle.

 

[Darkforbid]

Read and learn
Jesus in the Talmud - Wikipedia

OK let's read and learn. From the link that you think proves me wrong:

'There are several passages in the Talmud which are believed by some scholars to be references to Jesus. The name used in the Talmud is "Yeshu", the Aramaic vocalization (though not spelling) of the Hebrew name Yeshua.'

'The identification of Yeshu as Jesus is problematic. For example, the Talmud mentions Yeshu ben Pandera'

Exactly what I said, your link proved me right within 50 words which makes wonder if you even bothered checking

 

[Samael_Khan]

I believe he was crucified for his crimes but survived, possibly by a guard being bribed, possibly by being so near death it made little difference to the guard. Whatever, he recovered and was seen around town before succumbing to blood poisoning

That is an interesting take.

 

[exchemist]

Christians believe that the moment someone dies, Jesus appears in front of them and he asks them to join him in heaven, if they are good people. So, don't cry.

You seem to have made this up.

 

[ChristineM]

OK let's read and learn. From the link that you think proves me wrong:

'There are several passages in the Talmud which are believed by some scholars to be references to Jesus. The name used in the Talmud is "Yeshu", the Aramaic vocalization (though not spelling) of the Hebrew name Yeshua.'

'The identification of Yeshu as Jesus is problematic. For example, the Talmud mentions Yeshu ben Pandera'

Exactly what I said, your link proved me right within 50 words which makes wonder if you even bothered checking

What you said and i quote is :-

The Talmud just states "Yeshu Ben Pantera". Pantera was far from uncommon among Legionnaires at that time

Then when shown to be wrong claim that

There are several passages in the Talmud which are believed by some scholars to be references to Jesus.

Is

Exactly what I said,

I dont know where you went to school but i see those two quotes as contradictory.

 

[ChristineM]

That is an interesting take.

Possibilities only but rather more believable than rising from the dead