Some Questions

[Cosmos]

Let me say first that this is not a debate thread.. there are areas for debate at Religious Forms but this is not one of them.

For Baha'is the Institution of the Guardianship is ongoing..not because there is a physical living Guardian but because the interpretations and pronouncemnets of the Guardian Shoghi Effendi continue and are still viable and the elected Universal House of Justice respects this.


Also "First Guardian" does not imply there will be a second .. Indeed Shoghi Effendi was the first though.. He left no will and no successor to the Guardianship.. The Hands of the Cause of God in the Holy Land accepted this:

"in our capacity as Hands of the Cause of God duly nominated and appointed by the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, His Eminence the late Shoghi Effendi Rabbani, assembled this 25th of November, 1957 at the Bahá'í World Centre and constituting the supreme body of the Bahá'í World Community
DO HEREBY UNANIMOUSLY RESOLVE AND PROCLAIM AS FOLLOWS:
WHEREAS THE Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, His Eminence the late Shoghi Effendi Rabbani, passed away in London (England) on the 4th of November, 1957, without having appointed his successor;
AND WHEREAS it is now fallen upon us as Chief Stewards of the Bahá'í World Faith to preserve the unity, the security and the development of the Bahá'í World Community and all its institutions;
AND WHEREAS in accordance with the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá) "the Hands of the Cause of God must elect from their own number nine persons that shall at all times be occupied in the important services in the work of the Guardian of the Cause of God"; 30
We nominate and appoint from our own number to act on our behalf as the Custodians of the Bahá'í World Faith
Ruhiyyih Rabbani
Charles Mason Remey
Amelia E. Collins
Leroy C. Ioas
Hasan Balyuzi
'Ali-Akbar Furutan
Jalal Khazeh
Paul E. Haney
Adelbert Muhlschlegel
to exercise -- subject to such directions and decisions as may be given from time to time by us as the Chief Stewards of the Bahá'í World Faith -- all such functions, rights and powers in succession to the Guardian of the Bahá'í Faith, His Eminence the late Shoghi Effendi Rabbani, as are necessary to serve the interests of the Bahá'í World Faith, and this until such time as the Universal House of Justice, upon being duly established and elected in conformity with the Sacred Writings of Bahá'u'lláh and the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, may otherwise determine.
[Signed as follows]
Ruhiyyih Rabbani
Zikrullah Khadem
M.B. [Musa Banani]
Charles Mason Remey
Ali Mohammad Varqa
William Sears
Amelia E. Collins
T. Samandari
John Robarts
Leroy C. Ioas
Djalal Khazeh
Enoch Olinga
Ugo Giachery
John Ferraby
Agnes B. Alexander
Hasan M. Balyuzi
Paul E. Haney
H. Collis Featherstone
Shoaullah Alai
Horace Holley
Clara Dunn
Ali Akbar Furutan
Abul Qasim F. Teherani
Dr. R. Mohajer
Hermann Grossmann
Dr. Adelbert Muhlschlegel

(Custodians, Ministry of the Custodians, p. 29)

The twenty-seven Hands of the Cause of God unanimously agreed there was no biological successor, but this does not change anything mentioned above as to why it is explicitly clear that there is to be an Aghsan/Guardian, as well as an executive branch. You cannot function the authentic Universal House of Justice without the "twin pillars" or proper institutions and its president! Also, it is extremely redundant for there to be "FIRST GUARDIAN" on the tombstone and that no imply a single thing, as one precede logically two, three, etc. Note further that three of the nine members serving as Custodians, Remey, Collins, and Ioas, during the six year Interim were members of Shoghi Effendi's original International Baha'i Council. This was established in January 9, 1951, and Shoghi Effendi himself referred to it as the "embryonic Universal House of Justice", which was the mention "to serve the interests of the Bahá'í World Faith, and this until such time as the Universal House of Justice, upon being duly established and elected in conformity with the Sacred Writings of Bahá'u'lláh and the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Bahá, may otherwise determine." Again, therefore, if the Universal House of Justice in Haifa does not have an executive branch or serving president--or Guardian-- it cannot possibly be fulfilling the dilineation in the Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha (see the very pages I marked) which is explicitly clear! As I have read the same Will and Testmant, my memory serves me that the Master intended for a successive lineage, and no one can deny this fact but they can certainly abrogate it if they so choose to violate (i.e. "innovate") the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. Another fact is that the then elected (by Shoghi Effendi) president of the embryonic UHJ, Charles Mason Remey, would have also been in higher authority than Ms. Mary Sutherland Maxwell (Ruhiyya Khanum), therefore also it is impossible that she would have the authority to secretley make a ballot decision with the Hands of the Cause of God in private to usurp a position or make certain members feel they're making decisions under false pretenses. All the Hands/Stewards could possibly do was gather the legal documents from the Guardian Shoghi Effendi and set up the Institutions envisioned and devised in the Four Stage Plan. Changing or "innovating" the Will of God as expressed through the pens of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi is against the Law of God!

 

[Cosmos]

Cosmos has an issue with the Universal House of Justice and it's authority .. From what I gather he seems to agree with what Iwould call a dissident group that has it's own claims and so forth..

Around 1960 one of the Hands of the Cause Mason Remey made a claim to be the "Second Guardian"..however as you'll note above he previously believed there could be no Guardian to succeed Shoghi Effendi.. He apparently changed his mind later and nominated himself in 1960 and thus a number of groups followed his lead for awhile.. None of the other Hands accepted him as Guardian and there were some Baha'is however who did. The vast majority of Baha'is elected the first Universal House of Justice in 1963 and have done so every five years since then..

So that's the history of it in my view..

For the record: I am not a dissenter. Nor is anyone else who follows the explicit guidelines of the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. We are not less of a Baha'i. Further... there are members in the Haifa UHJ in the SAME POSITION for twenty or more years in a row! ...That is not democratic. The Aqdas, Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, or the writings of Shoghi Effendi are no different than any text Bruce, Artha, or any Baha'i reads... and nowhere... not in a single place is it considered or intended that the Institution of the Guardianship or "twin pillars" of the Universal House of Justice should be dismantled! Charles Mason Remey never changed his mind about anything, so get the facts straight, as he agreed along with 27 other Stewardship members or Hands of the Cause of God (as I mention above) that there was indeed no biological heir or successor. What sans-Guardian Baha'is do not understand is that this DOES NOT mean there is no Guardianship as this itself would mean the destruction of the Baha'i Faith without the proper balance of our Administrative Order, and Remey never contradicted himself with his claims but stayed true to what they found out in investigation of Shoghi Effendi's household premises!

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

Based on these and other similar statements I get the impression that the position of Guardian ended with Shoghi Effendi and that the duties held by that position including the continued interpretation of Baha'i doctrine has now past on to the Universal house of Justice, is this correct? Does the House of Justice hold the same sort of power and duties as the guardian did?

While the House is now the supreme body of the Faith, its duties differ from those the Guardian held. The Guardian (like 'Abdu'l-Baha) was authorized to interpret Baha'i scripture; the House is not. The House's role is to rule on any question not already covered in the Baha'i scriptures.

And while you may see one or more individuals try to post disinformation about the Guardianship and whether successors were possible, the fact remains that the Baha'i scriptures state that ONLY descendants of the Guardian himself (Shoghi Effendi) were eligible to become the Guardian. Because he had no children himself and none of his relatives were Baha'is by that time, there was simply no one eligible and available for him to appoint.

As to homosexuality and other topics, these are side issues not related to this main point.

Regards, and do keep the questions coming!

Bruce

 

[Runlikethewind]

Thanks again everyone, this has been very informative. Moving on to a new question, I'd like to know a little more about your prayer life. I recall hearing about some daily prayers that are to be said in the morning and in the evening, is this correct? What are they? Maybe a link to the text of the prayers might be nice?

 

[Boethiah]

Baha'is are obligated to perform an obligatory prayer along with the given instructions for that obligatory prayer. There are three: a short prayer, a medium prayer, and a long prayer.

Short Obligatory Prayer

Bahai's are also encouraged to recite "Allah'u'abha"("God is Most Glorious") 95 times a day.

Before an obligatory prayer(and the recital of Alllah'u'abha), a Baha'i is to perform ablutions of the face and hands.

Aside from obligatory prayers, once can also recite regular prayers like on the website. Personal prayers are also used as well.

Meditation is also used in harmony with prayers, as it is an important part of spiritual development.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bahai's are also encouraged to recite "Allah'u'abha"("God is Most Glorious") 95 times a day.

All at once, or does this happen throughout the day?

 

[Boethiah]

I believe they should be done all at once. I haven't read anything anywhere saying otherwise. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Cosmos]

Short Obligatory Prayer (to be said at least once a day):

I bear witness, O my God, to know Thee and to worship Thee.
I testify at this moment to my powerlessness and to Thy might, to my poverty and to Thy wealth. There is no God but Thee, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.

Long Obligatory Prayer (to be said at least once a day):

"O God, my God! Look not upon my hopes and my doings, nay, rather look upon Thy will that hath encompassed the heavens and the earth. By Thy Most Great Name, O Thou Lord of all nations! Make my prayer a fountain of living waters whereby I may live as long as Thy sovereignty endureth, and may make mention of Thee in every world of They worlds.

Too high art Thou for the praise of those who are drawn nigh unto Thee to ascend unto the heaven of Thy nearness, or for the birds of the hearts of those devoted to Thee to attain to the door of Thy gate.

I testify that Thou hast been sanctified above all attributes and holy above all names.

No God is there but Thee, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious."

(short version)

Rebuttal to Bruce: Pages 12 of the Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha directly states an adoption is possible and permissible according to the provisions of the Charter. I encourage Runlikethewind to look this material up himself and verify this--as well as every true free-thinking Baha'i.

It reads: O ye beloved of the Lord! It is incumbent upon the Guardian of the Cause of God to appoint in his own life-time him that shall become his successor, that differences may not arise after his passing. He that is appointed must manifest in himself detachment from all worldly things, must be the essence of purity, must show in himself the fear of God, knowledge, wisdom and learning. Thus, should the first-born of the Guardian of the Cause of God not manifest in himself the truth of the words:—“The child is the secret essence of its sire,” that is, should he not inherit of the spiritual within him (the Guardian of the Cause of God) and his glorious lineage not be matched with a goodly character, then must he, (the Guardian of the Cause of God) choose another branch to succeed him.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/WT/wt-1.html#pg12

 

[arthra]

Run like the wind...

Thanks again for the great questions ...

Baha'is are to read the Writings morning and evening.. this can be according to how much time they have..

These prayers are recited privately in a clean place..

Also there are three obligatory prayers to choose from that we can choose one for a day depending .. Any one of these prayers will fulfill the spiritual obligation.

We first perform ablutions before reciting the prayer ..then face Bahji which is the Qiblah and follow the directions of the prayers...

The short one involves simply standing in the direction.. the others are more detailed depending.. They resemble the Muslim rakas ...

See:

http://www.bahaiprayers.org/obligshort.htm

Reciting the Greatest Name ninety five times requires simply facing the Qiblah and after ablutions.. You can use prayer beads or count the prayers on the hands.. I happen to do this as it saves time and it's like your hands are your prayer beads ... this is done once a day.

See:

http://bahai9.com/wiki/Recitation_of_95_All%C3%A1h'u'Abh%C3%A1s

 

[BruceDLimber]

Run, hi!

The short and long obligatory prayers are explicitly stated to be for recital ONCE PER DAY, not "at least" once per day.

The medium one, in contrast, is to be recited three times per day.

And there's more of the usual disinformation being injected here:

Rebuttal to Bruce: Pages 12 of the Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha directly states an adoption is possible and permissible according to the provisions of the Charter. I encourage Runlikethewind to look this material up himself and verify this--as well as every true free-thinking Baha'i.


Bahá'í Reference Library - The Will And Testament of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 3-15

What is being ignored here is that the text (which is Baha'i scripture) explicitly authorizes the Guardian to choose ANOTHER BRANCH to succeed him; i.e., another descentant of Baha'u'llah. NO ONE ELSE is eligible to be appointed (despite the claims of certain individuals to the contrary), and in any case, by the time of Shoghi Effendi's impending death, NO other relative ("branch") was still a Baha'i; so there was by then NO ONE eligible to be appointed. End of story.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

Alright so here's the case for Mason..as I understand it..

He was President of the International Baha'i Council.

He received tokens from Abdul-Baha.. and believd Abdul-Baha "adopted" him.

He had served the Cause for many years and had received praise from many ...

Now the questions..

(1) If Mason was Abdul-Baha'is adopted son and so dear to Him why wasn't Mason mentioned in His Will and Testament?

Abdul-Baha clearly stated Shoghi Effendi his grandson was to be the Guardian of the Cause and not his "son" Mason Remey..

Mason was President of the International Baha'i Council appointed by Shoghi Effendi..as were the other members..

(2) Why do you think Shoghi Effendi as literate and focused as he was in everything would by so ambiguous as to miss clearly stating Mason a much older man by the way should succeed him?

(3) Why didn't Mason in conclave with the other Hands make his case known?

There's no record or statements from the other Hands that Mason made his case to be Guardian known to them.

We know he signed an Affidavit that the Guardian left no successor and there was no Will found..

 

[arthra]

Once again this is not supposed to be a debate thread..

You've come here with allegations that in my view are quite spurious and with out foundation...I meant to ask you if you have ever met a Hand of the Cause of God appointed by Shoghi Effendi and what basis you would claim they "lied"..?

That Mason made his proclamation in 1960 we are agreed.. Why the space in time three years or so since the Guardian's passing in 1957?..seems to me to be rather late and untimely of course he might have decided to oppose the election of the Universal House of Justice in 1963..HIs proclamation was basically turned down by the vast majority of Baha'is and his peers the other Hands of the Cause of God.

There's patently no evidence presented that a Hand can become a Guardian.. Mason proclaimed himself but had no authority of appointment..

You mentioned Amelia Collins .. She was a loyal Hand of the Cause and supported the election of the Universal House of Justice..

See:

In 1953, Shoghi Effendi acknowledged in his message to the twelve Annual Conventions, Millie’s "munificent donation" toward the purchase of many Hazíratu’l-Quds and endowments on five continents and in his last Convention message in 1957 for the donations for the building of the Mother Temples in Europe, Australia and Africa. The Guardian named the main gate to the shrine of Bahá’u’lláh in her honor.
Shoghi Effendi appointed Millie Collins in January 1951 as the vice -president of the International Bahá'i Council and she went to live in Haifa. This work continued for the rest of her life. In 1953 as part of the ten-year World Crusade, she and Ruhíyyih Khánum represented the Guardian at the All-American Conference in Chicago.
The beloved Guardian passed away in November, 1957. Millie was planing to meet him in Haifa, and upon her arrival there, heard the calamitous news of his passing that put the entire Baha’i world into shock. Millie immediately departed for London to join Ruhíyyih Khánum in her time of need. Millie became like a mother to her and gave spiritual support during the proceeding four dark years. In October, 1961, Millie had fallen and fractured her arm, requiring hospitalization.

Despite her frailness, she returned to Haifa to assist the Hands of the Cause in regard to the first election of the Universal House of Justice. She had to be carried in a wheelchair to the meetings being held at Bahji, and was able to attend all but one.

On the afternoon of January 1, 1962, at the age of 91, Millie Collins passed onto the Abhá Kingdom while being held in the arms of Ruhíyyih Khánum. Her body is buried in the Bahá’i cemetery at the foot of Mt. Carmel.


Source:

Amelia Collins the fulfilled Hope of 'Abdu'l-Baha

There were conclaves of the Hands of the Cause held and Mason signed the Affidavit after one of these that the Guardian had left no Will and there was therefore no successor..

Shoghi Effendi once again would not leave any ambiguity about his intentions and there fore the mere act of appointment to the embryonic International Council has little to do with becoming a Guardian..

So the case is weak ...so weak that the vast majority has not accepted it.

 

[arthra]

I'm going to return to the first question a bit because it wasn't really addressed above..

If Mason Remey was Abdul-Baha's adopted son why was no provision made for him in the Will of Abdul-Baha? No mention of him made there whatsoever..

And why no proclamation that Mason was His adopted son and that memebrs of His family should accept him?

Another issue that could be raised is the practise of adoption in Islam.. Since practises of Islam were still influential in the Holy Land I'll cite them here:

An adopted child retains his or her own biological family name (surname) and does not change his or her name to match that of the adoptive family.
An adopted child inherits from his or her biological parents, not automatically from the adoptive parents.
When the child is grown, members of the adoptive family are not considered blood relatives, and are therefore not muhrim to him or her. "Muhrim" refers to a specific legal relationship that regulates marriage and other aspects of life. Essentially, members of the adoptive family would be permissible as possible marriage partners, and rules of modesty exist between the grown child and adoptive family members of the opposite sex.
If the child is provided with property/wealth from the biological family, adoptive parents are commanded to take care and not intermingle that property/wealth with their own. They serve merely as trustees.

Source:

Adoption in Islam

Now relating to the International Baha'i Council appointed by Shoghi Effendi.. this was an embryonic form of the later Universal House of Justice if Mason's position as President of that body was to make him a Guardian in preparation why was not Shoghi Effendi it's president..?

There are too many ambiguities about Mason's thinking on this and remember he was around eighty years of age or so when he proclaimed himself a "second" Guardian..

For a general review of this and related issues see:

The Passing of Shoghi Effendi, Ministry of the Hands of the Cause, and Defection of Mason Remey

 

[BruceDLimber]

Shoghi Effendi DID appoint a successor--Charles Mason Remey.

Once again, simply false!

ONLY a blood descendant was eligible for appointment and none were then available, as Remey himself asserted in a written document before he later broke the Covenant and tried to usurp power for himself!

Anyone claiming otherwise is 1) wrong and 2) not a Baha'i in good standing.

End of story.

Bruce

 

[Runlikethewind]

Sorry haven't been around last couple days, been camping, had a great time. I must admit that when I first encountered your faith I got this impression that it was some new age hippy thing that grew out of the 60's. This opinion was based on absolutely no knowledge of the faith whatsoever and was not done maliciously or anything, I just made a judgment and the realized one day that it was completely baseless. I now have a much greater understanding of your faith. Thank you.

Anyone claiming otherwise is 1) wrong and 2) not a Baha'i in good standing.

End of story.

Bruce

This statement lead me to another question. In the Catholic Church we have forms of excommunication for for those we believe hold beliefs contrary to the faith, official ways of severing ties with people. By saying "not a Baha'i in good standing", are you referring to something similar? Does your faith exercise some official forms of sanction or is it more unofficial?

 

[Boethiah]

Those enrolled in the Baha'i Faith who actively try to do it harm are given a couple of chances, then labeled as "covenant breakers" for basically trying to cause disunity in the religion. I am not too sure on the process of how the Universal House of Justice or the National Spiritual Assembly for whichever country it is (I am not sure who does the action) decides whether or not someone has committed this, or the process they have to take to decide what action to take. It doesn't happen incredibly often, but it happens.

Basically, Baha'is are then told to not pay any mind to those people. I don't really agree with the whole idea of excommunication, but then again, I have chosen not to enroll so it really isn't much of my business. I can see where they are coming from though. I have read my history. There have been people legitimately trying to garner power for themselves.

 

[arthra]

If someone consciously violates Baha'i laws and that could mean say drinking alcohol to gambling or say getting married outside the Faith or other things that could bring disrepute the Local Spiritual Assembly is to consult with the person and see if they understand the laws ..

They are allowed time to say mend their ways or work to change.. After a time they may return to consult with the Assembly.. There might be referrals offered for counseling or therapy..

If after a time all these efforts have failed the Local Assembly can share this with the National Spiritual Assembly and recommend that a person should have their administrative rights suspended.. meaning they can't hold any office or vote in elections..The National Spiritual Assembly could suspend their administrative rights.. Now they are still considered a Baha'i.. They could amend their ways and the sanction can be lifted.

A more serious level is when someone actively challenges the authority of say the Universal House of Justice our supreme institution.. They try to recruit people to their side and attack the Covenant in some way meaning thy support some claimant say as a "Guardian" or such.. when this occurs the House of Justice can declare them to be violating the covenant.. and we Baha'is will then leave them to themselves. They can be reconsidered later but they must apply to be reinstated to the House of Justice directly.. Very few people in the past years have been declared as violaters of the covenant.. There are small groups however who still exists from say earlier instances where say someone declared themselves to be a Guardian some years ago.

 

[arthra]

After writing the above post it occurred to me that "...getting married outside the Faith.." could be misunderstood.. What I meant was a Baha'i decides to marry without abiding by Baha'i laws of marriage.. They don't have parental consent and say they go ahead with a civil marriage.. We can marry "outside the Faith" as long as we follow Baha'i laws..securing parents permission.. having the local Assembly review the marriage etc.

Baha'is can marry anyone providing the requirements are met..