Some Questions

[Runlikethewind]

Greetings followers of Bahá'u'lláh. I've recently taken up an interest in learning more about your faith and have a few questions I'd like to ask. I've been tooling around your website ( The Bahá’Ã* Faith - The international website of the Bahá’Ã*s of the world )reading up on things but I figured it would be nice to speak to someone directly too.

My first question is that I noticed the claim was made that Baha'is see revealed religion as the chief civilizing force in history. How would you defend that claim against assertions that religion breeds violence and atrocities done in the name of God? I'm Catholic and our history is full of problems. I get this argument from atheist/agnostic types who say religion is bad and reason, science, and rationality need to take over, that the world would be better if religion just died out altogether. In light of the history of religion how can it be the chief civilizing force?

I have more questions but maybe I'll just ask one at a time if that is cool?

 

[Runlikethewind]

I wanted to clarify, I think it's a pretty strong assertion that religion is the chief civilizing force in light of history. A civilizing force, definitely, but...it just seems a bit strong to me. I am not trying to be adversarial in anyway, I am truly interested in learning more of your faith. Thanks.

 

[arthra]

Well thanks for the question run like the wind..

I think if you review past civilizations you'll note that they tend to have a belief system that supported them and was a basis for unity in their time.. Yes the concept of unity has grown since the time of Moses I would say.. and in the time of Jesus..

Yes indeed I would agree there has been violence between various religious groups and I think these developed because of a failure or breakdown of the older dispensations to accept other people and their religious beliefs

The growth of human institutions seems to go something like this.. the family..the tribe (You'll note that both Moses and Prophet Muhammad united tribes).. the city.. the nation.. and alliances between nations and finally what we can now envision in our time .. a world government.

As humanity has developed we now today see ourselves poised at the beginning of a truly world civilization that was also envisioned by Baha'u'llah away back around the period 1868 -1871 when He wrote to the ruling monarchs of His day that a representative world parliament and international court of arbitration should be established.. Today it seems to me we are much closer to realizing these institutions..

 

[Runlikethewind]

Thank you. So the power of religion to act as a unifying or civilizing force must be placed in their historical context, as good in those specific times and places for those specific peoples. Interesting...

Another question I had is in regard to your church structure. The Catholic Church is very hierarchical, we have a well defined structure with priests and bishops etc. Catholic worship services are also very structured with the mass and such. How is yours structured? Do you have anything like a priesthood? I read something about a guardian on your website which seemed to me to be like a pope figure. How are your local churches set up? Do you go to church on a specific day like Sunday, are your services structured rituals like a Catholic mass?

 

[arthra]

Thanks run like the wind for the great questions!

Baha'i Faith has no priesthood or clergy.. Our daily obligatory prayers are recited by the believers in private.. We do gather every nineteen days for Feasts which are based on our calendar nineteen day months and nineteen months a year.. named after the attributes of God..

Wherever there are nine adult Baha'is in a given jurisdiction they form an Assembly.. Assemblies are elected by the believers once a year. Every year the believers have a Convention for a district or Unit and these in turn elect representatives to a National Convention once a year.. This National Convention then elects the National Spiritual Assembly of nine believers.

Every five years the National Spiritual Assemblies around the world elect the Universal House of Justice composed of nine believers.. The Universal House of Justice is the Center of our Faith and decides matters that are not specifically covered in the revealed Writings of Baha'u'llah and the Interpretations of His eldest Son Abdul-Baha.. and in the interpretation of the Guardian of the Faith Shoghi Effendi who was the grandson of Abdul-Baha and also a descendant of the Bab's family and Baha'u'llah..

The Guardian was not in our view like a Pope.. He was given authority though to interpret the Writings by Abdul-Baha in His Will and Testament.

 

[Cosmos]

Thanks run like the wind for the great questions!The Guardian was not in our view like a Pope.. He was given authority though to interpret the Writings by Abdul-Baha in His Will and Testament.

I only want to clarify and maybe correct sister Art in her rendition of the First Guardian Shoghi Effendi as "like a Pope". No doubt the Guardian His Imminence Shoghi Effendi is the first and ONLY infallible Guardian for the history of the Baha'i Faith, but this is specifically because he is a "rod of gold" or divinely inspired due to his special connection between the spiritual potencies of the Afnan (family of the Bab) and Aghsan (family of Baha'u'llah) lineages, bestowing him special conferred infallibility according to Baha'i theology. However, one thing that at this very moment has split the Baha'i Community is interpretation whether the Guardianship continues (and it does till this very day) or not without any biological successors. Shoghi Effendi's Four-Stage Plan and his voluminous and comprehensive opinions on a wide-range of other religious/theological topics and issues are to be taken whole-heartedly as the inspired guidelines that will aide humanity in perfecting an ever-expanding understanding of our instituting Baha'i institutions, scientific endeavors, etc. In essence, he is the brainchild of sculpting the concepts of future global institutions to serve our world.

 

[arthra]

"Nor can the Bahá'í Administrative Order be dismissed as a hard and rigid system of unmitigated autocracy or as an idle imitation of any form of absolutistic ecclesiastical government, whether it be the Papacy, the Imamate or any other similar institution, for the obvious reason that upon the international elected representatives of the followers of Bahá'u'lláh has been conferred the exclusive right of legislating on matters not expressly revealed in the Bahá'í writings. Neither the Guardian of the Faith nor any institution apart from the International House of Justice can ever usurp this vital and essential power or encroach upon that sacred right.

"The abolition of professional priesthood with its accompanying sacraments of baptism, of communion and of confession of sins, the laws requiring the election by universal suffrage of all local, national, and international Houses of Justice, the total absence of episcopal authority with its attendant privileges, corruptions and bureaucratic tendencies, are further evidences of the non-autocratic character of the Bahá'í Administrative Order and of its inclination to democratic methods in the administration of its affairs."

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 153

 

[Cosmos]

"Nor can the Bahá'í Administrative Order be dismissed as a hard and rigid system of unmitigated autocracy or as an idle imitation of any form of absolutistic ecclesiastical government, whether it be the Papacy, the Imamate or any other similar institution, for the obvious reason that upon the international elected representatives of the followers of Bahá'u'lláh has been conferred the exclusive right of legislating on matters not expressly revealed in the Bahá'í writings. Neither the Guardian of the Faith nor any institution apart from the International House of Justice can ever usurp this vital and essential power or encroach upon that sacred right.

"The abolition of professional priesthood with its accompanying sacraments of baptism, of communion and of confession of sins, the laws requiring the election by universal suffrage of all local, national, and international Houses of Justice, the total absence of episcopal authority with its attendant privileges, corruptions and bureaucratic tendencies, are further evidences of the non-autocratic character of the Bahá'í Administrative Order and of its inclination to democratic methods in the administration of its affairs."

~ Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 153

:clap:camp:



I couldn't have said it better!

Shoghi Effendi elucidates also in his work, "The World Order of Baha'u'llah" page 151:

No Guardian of the Faith, I feel it my solemn duty to place on record, can ever claim to be the perfect exemplar of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh or the stainless mirror that reflects His light. Though overshadowed by the unfailing, the unerring protection of Bahá’u’lláh and of the Báb, and however much he may share with ‘Abdu’l-Bahá the right and obligation to interpret the Bahá’í teachings, he remains essentially human and cannot, if he wishes to remain faithful to his trust, arrogate to himself, under any pretense whatsoever, the rights, the privileges and prerogatives which Bahá’u’lláh has chosen to confer upon His Son. In the light of this truth to pray to the Guardian of the Faith, to address him as lord and master, to designate him as his holiness, to seek his benediction, to celebrate his birthday, or to commemorate any event associated with his life would be tantamount to a departure from those established truths that are enshrined within our beloved Faith. The fact that the Guardian has been specifically endowed with such power as he may need to reveal the purport and disclose the implications of the utterances of Bahá’u’lláh and of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá does not necessarily confer upon him a station co-equal with those Whose words he is called upon to interpret. He can exercise that right and discharge this obligation and yet remain infinitely inferior to both of them in rank and different in nature.

The precedent Shoghi Effendi set for the Institution of the Guardianship, in my humble opinion, is related to the role it would assume and the function it would execute as the presidency of the executive branch of his World Administrative Order, in that he intended that the Guardian act as President of the body-politic or Institutions (i.e. Administration) of the Faith and this is evident as he himself set this in order in January 9, 1951. Again, the reason why His Imminence Shoghi Effendi has such an honorable, and yes, venerable station and role within the eternal Divine Plan of God, for example his conferred infallibility as Interpreter of the Sacred Writings and spiritual Head of the Faith during his ministry, is due to the fact he is that rod of pure gold or the spiritual union and essence of the Afnan-Aghsan Bloodlines. Shoghi Effendi wrote:

Though the Guardian of the Faith has been made the permanent head of so august a body he can never, even temporarily, assume the right of exclusive legislation. He cannot override the decision of the majority of his fellow-members, but is bound to insist upon a reconsideration by them of any enactment he conscientiously believes to conflict with the meaning and to depart from the spirit of Bahá’u’lláh’s revealed utterances. He interprets what has been specifically revealed, and cannot legislate except in his capacity as member of the Universal House of Justice. He is debarred from laying down independently the constitution that must govern the organized activities of his fellow-members, and from exercising his influence in a manner that would encroach upon the liberty of those whose sacred right is to elect the body of his collaborators. [The World Order of Baha'u'llah, pg. 150]

The reason for this is, again, the Guardian Shoghi Effendi intended that the Guardianship would serve in the capacity of the "twin pillars"--also a phrase I do believe is in this text (if not in the Last Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha)--as the functioning executive branch wherein the President is equal to all other individual believers with the power of an individual vote in the Council (i.e. Universal House of Justice). This keeps this lifelong member from vetoing or usurping power as there are those checks and balances of harmonious administrative responsibilities. On the tombstone of Shoghi Effendi's resting place it in fact reads "FIRST GUARDIAN" which should allow us to all pause and contemplate the importance of such a position in the Baha'i Community.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Thanks for the answers. So the leadership of the faith is very democratic with elected representatives.

My next question, How does your faith approach evangelization and conversion? Your faith recognizes past persons like Jesus and Mohamed as being past manifestations of God so do you mind if people stay in their faith or do you see Christianity Islam and others as having out lived their usefulness? Do you actively seek to convert them (us) to Bah'i? Does my question make sense? I mean, if Jesus was a valid representative of God why should I convert to Bah'i? why not just stay Christian?

 

[arthra]

Thanks for the answers. So the leadership of the faith is very democratic with elected representatives.

My next question, How does your faith approach evangelization and conversion? Your faith recognizes past persons like Jesus and Mohamed as being past manifestations of God so do you mind if people stay in their faith or do you see Christianity Islam and others as having out lived their usefulness? Do you actively seek to convert them (us) to Bah'i? Does my question make sense? I mean, if Jesus was a valid representative of God why should I convert to Bah'i? why not just stay Christian?

Great questions run like the wind..

Proselytizing is forbidden Baha'is meaning we bring no undue pressure on people or offer rewards for someone who may want to be a Baha'i.... at the same time, we are obligated to teach the Faith given the opportunity.. If someone wants to know more about the Faith we do our best to respond..

We do recognize the past Manifestations of God and acknowledge there could have been many unknown Manifestations that is where the records have been lost.. We believe there is one religion of God that has been expressed through the various Manifestations and Messengers of God.

We also believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies of past dispensations and that the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies of the Return of Christ.. Similarly, we believe the Bab for instance fulfilled the prophecies of the Mahdi and Qa'im in Islam..

People must use their own independent investigation of truth or reality to decide for themselves whether they recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah..We oppose blind belief without investigation.

The first teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is the investigation of reality. Man must seek the reality himself, forsaking imitations and adherence to mere hereditary forms. As the nations of the world are following imitations in lieu of truth and as imitations are many and various, differences of belief have been productive of strife and warfare. So long as these imitations remain the oneness of the world of humanity is impossible. Therefore we must investigate the reality in order that by its light the clouds and darkness may be dispelled. Reality is one reality; it does not admit multiplicity or division. If the nations of the world investigate reality they will 239 agree and become united. Many people and sects in Iran have sought reality through the guidance and teaching of Bahá'u'lláh. They have become united and now live in a state of agreement and love; among them there is no longer the least trace of enmity and strife.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 238

 

[arthra]

I wonder how they go about doing that Also I wonder what the Israeli government's motive is behind this rule, if any...?

Baha'is don't teach the Baha'i Faith in Israel and Baha'is that do live there only serve the needs of the Baha'i world community at the seat of Universal House of Justice in Haifa.. Baha'is only go there to visit Baha'i Holy places on pilgrimage.

 

[LuisDantas]

But why is that so? Surely Bahais do not actually dislike the idea of having Israeli converts, so it would seem that it is some kind of concession to Israeli and/or rabinic authorities.

 

[arthra]

But why is that so? Surely Bahais do not actually dislike the idea of having Israeli converts, so it would seem that it is some kind of concession to Israeli and/or rabinic authorities.

This is our policy. It has been in place since the time of Baha'u'llah as above noted.

Teaching the Faith in Israel

by Universal House of Justice

1995-06-23
​

The Universal House of Justice has received your email message dated 29 June 1995 and we have been asked to respond.


You have asked how the policy of not teaching Israelis applies in the situation in which you have contact with an Israeli via an "interactive relay chat" (IRC) connection. The House of Justice has not asked the friends to avoid contact with Israelis. When you discover that a person you are in contact with via IRC is an Israeli, you should feel free to maintain friendly contact, but you should not teach the Faith to him. If he has already developed a personal interest in the Faith and seeks more information, you should refer him to the Offices of the Bahá'í World Centre in Haifa.

For your information, the people in Israel have access to factual information about the Faith, its history and general principles. Books concerning the Faith are available in libraries throughout Israel, and Israelis are welcome to visit the Shrines and the surrounding gardens. However, in keeping with a policy that has been strictly followed since the days of Bahá'u'lláh, Bahá'ís do not teach the Faith in Israel. Likewise, the Faith is not taught to Israelis abroad if they intend to return to Israel. When Israelis ask about the Faith, their questions are answered, but this is done in a manner which provides factual information without stimulating further interest.
With loving Bahá'í greetings,
Department of the Secretariat

 

[Yaqub]

We also believe that the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies of past dispensations and that the Bab and Baha'u'llah fulfilled the prophecies of the Return of Christ.. Similarly, we believe the Bab for instance fulfilled the prophecies of the Mahdi and Qa'im in Islam..

People must use their own independent investigation of truth or reality to decide for themselves whether they recognize the Bab and Baha'u'llah..We oppose blind belief without investigation.

Hello arthra, I was wandering if you would be willing to engage in a friendly debate on the claims you have made here:

i. Was Mirza Hussain Ali Nuri (or Bahaullah as you call him) the fulfilment of the return of Jesus?

ii. Was Muhammad Ali Shirazi (or the Bab as you call him) the expected Mahdi that is prophecised to come?

Since this is the DIR section, I am wandering if you would like to debate these two questions in the General religion debates section. As you yourself mentioned, it is important for everyone to investigate for themselves the claims of the Bahaullah and the Bab and make his or her own independent and sincere decision. I believe that a debate is the best way to help people make an informed decision on these issues.

 

[arthra]

Thanks for invite

But at this time there are very few us posting here and so I can only respond to questions here about the Baha'i Faith on this Forum.

I don't visit the Muslim Forums and challenge them to debate or contend with people or attack their religion.

 

[Cosmos]

If it would make you feel more comfortable, Art, I shall defend along with you the proofs and evidences of our religion.

 

[Yaqub]

Thanks for invite

But at this time there are very few us posting here and so I can only respond to questions here about the Baha'i Faith on this Forum.

I don't visit the Muslim Forums and challenge them to debate or contend with people or attack their religion.

However, you did say that everyone should investigate the claims of Bahaullah for himself or herself in order to make an informed decision. If you truly believe that Bahaullah is the promised Messiah and the fulfilment of the second coming of Jesus, you should be willing to openly discuss this issue, of course, in a civil way. The debate will not be in either the Muslim or Bahai DIR forums, but rather, in the General Religion debate forum. I believe this is quite a reasonable request, however, if you are still not interested, that is completely up to you. In which case I still plan on opening a thread in the General Religion debate forum to discuss the claim of Bahaullah.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Thanks Cosmos and arthra for your responses and your patience with me in my questioning. You have been most insightful.

 

[arthra]

However, you did say that everyone should investigate the claims of Bahaullah for himself or herself in order to make an informed decision. If you truly believe that Bahaullah is the promised Messiah and the fulfilment of the second coming of Jesus, you should be willing to openly discuss this issue, of course, in a civil way. The debate will not be in either the Muslim or Bahai DIR forums, but rather, in the General Religion debate forum. I believe this is quite a reasonable request, however, if you are still not interested, that is completely up to you. In which case I still plan on opening a thread in the General Religion debate forum to discuss the claim of Bahaullah.

As I mentioned above I don't really have the time to debate with you. There are too few of us at this time and I have other commitments.

Independent investigation of truth or reality is a principle that we Baha'is cherish and it involves a personal search.

 

[Cosmos]

A perfect place to start in research is Surah An'Nur where Baha'u'llah is mentioned by Name, Address, and Mission--three out of four of the features in the divine "calling-card" or 'Prophetic Criteria' Jesus Christ Himself taught to us the people to validate His own claims and so we could know how to identify the true Promised Ones of God after Him from false prophets. Please read it carefully and meditate upon it! Tonight is late so we will have to go over its symbolic meanings another time, God-willing. But, what I can share with you which is more than evident is that the word "nur" describes the lineal descent (NAME) of Baha'u'llah, as His surname is Mirza Husayn-'Ali Nur-i-Buzurg-i, born in the province of Mazandaran in the region of Nur (ADDRESS), and one of the most recognized features of this surah--which I am sure, Yaqub, you are well aware, is "a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west" (verse 35), and my brother though this may be ascribed to the Holy Prophet Muhammad Himself, it is a prophecy, dear friend, of the Messiah as a Great Prophet (MISSION)--so we believe! This is a valid proof that will take you meditation and research to fathom its meanings and to believe in its truth.