Some free talk about the flow of religious wisdom

[LuisDantas]

mmmm......so!

no clear boundary between culture and religion...???

Yep. Religion is about values and community. I for one do not see how that can be truly separated from culture.

religion is what you do about your belief in God

I don't think so. I certainly do not acknowledge such a definition as valid, or even as useful.

and culture arises from day to day living

and to say that a tradition is not an authentic expression?

I did not say that. I said instead that tradition must be balanced with authenticity of expression. I may have failed to point out that such authenticity must be pursued at the individual level, while a tradition is by its very nature somewhat limited in its ability to allow for individual traits and their expression.

It may be helpful to see tradition as a collective of sorts, which must interact with the individuals and both affect and be affected by each. In which ways is perhaps an inherently open question.

as if people do things with no mind and heart?
ritual without soul.....

you might ask someone.......why did you light that candle?
(in a display of many side by side)

I am not following, sorry.

 

[LuisDantas]

get a grip.....

loving consultation can also be dealt with a slap in the face

what?.....your parents never bothered?

Yes, it can be. That is one reason why faith is necessary.

Come to think of it, even better than faith is a firm commitment to purity of purpose. There is no shame in a honest mistake, and there is much constructive to learn from them.

 

[Thief]

I don't think so. I certainly do not acknowledge such a definition as valid, or even as useful.

there is the pivot

and from this point on we cannot have interaction

but I remain free to talk about the flow of religion...?????

or will you release control?

 

[Thief]

There is no shame in a honest mistake, and there is much constructive to learn from them.

depends on your culture
ooops
I meant religion

Thou shall not steal

or you will lose your hand

 

[Jim]

Luis ... I'm sitting here looking at that, wondering how to tell you what I'm feeling, or if it's even possible. A possible kinship between us, in something that we both love, that you may or may not feel too. A faint, oh so faint hope that we might go somewhere with this together, in some way that will help both of us do whatever we can do to help heal grief.

I think you just might have realized what Dharma means, ... or at least be well on your way to.

My first impulse, seeing that, was to wonder some more about the possibility of having the kind of conversation with you that I was thinking of when I said that. Then I decided to just be happy where I am now.

 

[Jim]

... even better than faith is a firm commitment to purity of purpose.

I'm dumbfounded. This keeps getting better and better. You don't know what you're doing to me. Or do you?

 

[Jim]

@LuisDantas Th

I think you just might have realized what Dharma means, @Jim , or at least be well on your way to.

Maybe ... Maybe. However that may be, your response to what I was hoping and wishing for has been wonderful, far beyond what I could have imagined or dreamed would be possible in such a short time and with so few words between us, filling me with peace and joy.

 

[LuisDantas]

there is the pivot

and from this point on we cannot have interaction

but I remain free to talk about the flow of religion...?????

or will you release control?

Which control?

 

[LuisDantas]

depends on your culture
ooops
I meant religion

Thou shall not steal

or you will lose your hand

Case in point.

Any culture and/or religion owes it to itself to question whether harsh punishment, if inherited from its own tradition, is worth keeping (and why).

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm dumbfounded. This keeps getting better and better. You don't know what you're doing to me. Or do you?

I will never know for sure, I suppose.

Maybe that is not all that essential, though.

 

[Jim]

... even better than faith is a firm commitment to purity of purpose. There is no shame in a honest mistake, and there is much constructive to learn from them.

I'm dumbfounded. This keeps getting better and better. You don't know what you're doing to me. Or do you?

I will never know for sure, I suppose.

Maybe that is not all that essential, though.

Maybe not, but I'd like you to know, if you'd like to know. You keep saying things that have deep, rich meaning for me. Other things you've said have been like koans for me. It's brought me to a place of peace and joy and being where I am, repeatedly. It's all magically interwoven with some of my discussions with others in these forums. It all happened after I told you that I was wishing and hoping to learn more about Dharma, and hoping for your help with that. An impossible dream come true, on the same day that I dreamed it. It's like what I imagine might happen to me, walking and talking with a master.

"Now is the time to cheer and refresh the down-cast through the invigorating breeze of love and fellowship, and the living waters of friendliness and charity." - Baha'u'llah

"Purity of Heart Is to Will One Thing." - Sören Kierkegaard

 

[Audie]

That depends entirely on how you define religion, Skwim.

Which is a far more arbitrary choice than most people realize.

Myself, I favor definitions that actually have a practical use. I will readily grant that many of us atheists use a sharply different definition, but that one seems lacking in actual value to me.

Sure! Look at all the people who think Darwinism is
a religion. (you need a wide angle lens for that)

 

[LuisDantas]

@Jim , may I point out that one part of what I do is perceive religion as dealing with the expression of the sacred in this world?

I personally see no need to even consider whether there was a Creator Will. It is probably fine if others do, but I do not, and therefore it makes sense to direct my attention elsewhere.

 

[LuisDantas]

Sure! Look at all the people who think Darwinism is
a religion. (you need a wide angle lens for that)

That is a bit of a tangent to this tangent, @Audie , but I will point out that only theists bother saying such a silly thing.

Not very good examples of theists if you ask me, mind you. And certainly not ones with deep respect for the idea of religion.

For that matter, they clearly do not have the best of grasps of "Darwinism" nor of biology either...

 

[Audie]

That is a bit of a tangent to this tangent, @Audie , but I will point out that only theists bother saying such a silly thing.

Not very good examples of theists if you ask me, mind you. And certainly not ones with deep respect for the idea of religion.

For that matter, they clearly do not have the best of grasps of "Darwinism" nor of biology either...

Not intended as a tangent, but an example
to illustrate your point-

That depends entirely on how you define religion,

 

[Jim]

@Jim , may I point out that one part of what I do is perceive religion as dealing with the expression of the sacred in this world?

Yes, you may.

I personally see no need to even consider whether there was a Creator Will. It is probably fine if others do, but I do not, and therefore it makes sense to direct my attention elsewhere.

That's okay with me.

Why are we talking about this?

 

[LuisDantas]

Not intended as a tangent, but an example
to illustrate your point-

That depends entirely on how you define religion,

Yes. It was fortunate that @Skwim illustrated early on how so many of my atheist colleagues go out of their way to define it in an inherently depreciative way. Interestingly, so do many theists.

Meanwhile, there are those who avoid that, such as myself and, ironically enough, many or most Muslims.

 

[Jim]

@Jim , may I point out that one part of what I do is perceive religion as dealing with the expression of the sacred in this world?

I think I already knew that. I'm happy about that.

 

[LuisDantas]

Yes, you may.

That's okay with me.

Why are we talking about this?

I was thinking about what is arguably an eccentricity of mine: the decision that the central aspect of religion is the sacred, not the deity.

That connects to the Advaita/Dvaita distinction in Hinduism, as well as to its variety of Yogas (including Bhakti, Jnana and Karma varieties).

While it may feel unconfortable at first for those who are not used to the idea, it is very much true that religious truth is often rather personal in nature, or at least in shape.

 

[Jim]

I was thinking about what is arguably an eccentricity of mine: the decision that the central aspect of religion is the sacred, not the deity.

Central aspect? It isn't Dharma? Do you mean, what's unique about religion, that makes it religion?

... religious truth is often rather personal in nature, or at least in shape.

Do you mean, religious experience is like a personal relationship, or do you mean that it's different for each person? Both? Other?